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I don't get it!


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#21 Aussiebyron

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Posted 03 March 2013 - 08:13 PM

John I can see your point regarding when your not shooitng competition. If you got the 36mp at your disposal why not use it.  Cropping doesnt interest me so much as I am shooting at the other end of the scale with big subjects and ultra wide (weitwinkel) angle.  Cropping a shot taken at 10mm on a Dx camera takes away the whole affect i am trying to achieve. 

 

My opinion if old mate was waiting patiently infront of the Jawfishes hole with their 105mm and 12mp camera and captured a great jawfish shot filling the frame and with no need to crop shows me more skill than someone with a 60mm and  D800 shooting further away and cropping the hell out of the image.

 

I think having competitions which allow no cropping or only very minor cropping makes in more competitive and shows increased skills need to achieve images.  It might be "gone with the wind" to someone to have skills in being able to compose and frame a shot but its those with those skills which truely make successful photographers in any format which they choose to use.  Isnt it the basics in photography to be able to compose your shot before you take that shot?

 

If heavy cropping were to be allowed its definately an unfair advantage to people that have 36mp Nikon D800 especailly in the field of macro photography when compared to 12-16mp cameras everyone else is using?

 

Regards Mark


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#22 John Bantin

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Posted 03 March 2013 - 10:02 PM

I believe that you are judged only by the final image but you remind me  that I remember once seeing David Bailey doing a fashion shoot with a 10x8 camera. When I asked him why, he said it was all getting too easy otherwise!

 

(I don't do photo competitions. I might not win!  :) )


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#23 Aussiebyron

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Posted 04 March 2013 - 05:08 AM

I believe that you are judged by the final image and also how that image was taken in accordance with the rules of that competition. If it only judged by the final image the competition would be open to all sorts of unethical forms of trying to capture an images, like staged shots and harrassing wildlife to get that winning shot.

 

I personnaly think it takes more skill to fill 100% of a frame with a great shot, compared to using 50% of the frame of a ordinary shot to make a great shot. 

 

Regards Mark


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#24 MikeVeitch

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Posted 04 March 2013 - 07:41 AM

I believe that you are judged by the final image and also how that image was taken in accordance with the rules of that competition. If it only judged by the final image the competition would be open to all sorts of unethical forms of trying to capture an images, like staged shots and harrassing wildlife to get that winning shot.

 

I personnaly think it takes more skill to fill 100% of a frame with a great shot, compared to using 50% of the frame of a ordinary shot to make a great shot. 

 

Regards Mark

I certainly agree with you there. 


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#25 Ronyx

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Posted 04 March 2013 - 08:46 AM

I'll add my vote to this sentiment as well.

#26 AllisonFinch

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Posted 04 March 2013 - 09:03 AM

Competitions that have rules that prohibit cropping shouldn't be entered.

I disagree.

 

I believe a category for no cropping is great. The problem with PS is that it is taking away from the idea of composing your shots as you take them. It has made photography all about who can "manipulate" the best. The idea of minimal processing is an attempt to keep people using art at the time of capture....not afterwards.


Edited by AllisonFinch, 04 March 2013 - 09:04 AM.


#27 davichin

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Posted 04 March 2013 - 11:33 AM

For many of us, trying to get the shot as finished as possible straight from the camera, is just fun. For many others it is just nonsense and even think "Competitions that have rules that prohibit cropping shouldn't be entered" or "Photo competition rules were really designed for a world which no longer exists" etc... There is room for everybody, so just let us have fun!

 

You could also go to any golf competition and ask why there are some forbidden drivers, or to any bow shooting competition and ask them if they don´t know there are (too many) fire arms nowadays... there are hundreds of examples...


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#28 tdpriest

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Posted 04 March 2013 - 11:55 AM

... The problem with PS is that it is taking away from the idea of composing your shots as you take them. It has made photography all about who can "manipulate" the best. The idea of minimal processing is an attempt to keep people using art at the time of capture....not afterwards.

 

Tell that to anyone who ever worked with negatives in a darkroom...

 

... you can't make a poor image great, but you can make a good image better.

 

There ought to be space for the brilliant image made in camera, but also for a truly great "darkroom" image, cropped, curved and layered in the demonic Photoshop!



#29 John Bantin

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Posted 04 March 2013 - 12:37 PM

Tell that to anyone who ever worked with negatives in a darkroom...

 

... you can't make a poor image great, but you can make a good image better.

 

There ought to be space for the brilliant image made in camera, but also for a truly great "darkroom" image, cropped, curved and layered in the demonic Photoshop!

Was that Ansel Adams any good?


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#30 davichin

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Posted 04 March 2013 - 01:08 PM

Ansel Adams was special because he was unique. Now there are millions of digital Ansel Adams, so it is not special anymore, nor it is as difficult as it was in the old past. The thing is that composing in-camera is becoming more unique though (just make an overview at the many topics where this has been talked about before) and some people will find more merit in an image with not much PS than in the same one if it has needed a lot of PS (EVEN IF THE END RESULT IS THE SAME)...

 

Ansel Adams example is like Dolly the cloned sheep; it was unique and a outstanding technology development and use...but now it is common, possibly done by many, and not very interesting anymore...


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#31 GeorgeH

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Posted 04 March 2013 - 01:52 PM

I have little interest in photo contests but even if I did, don’t know where I would choose to crop in camera. I am all for getting it right in camera since I prefer to limit processing time and with strobes it shouldn't require much anyway.

 

I read the justification that cropping in camera demonstrates superior skill. Why? If your objective is to fill the frame, use the entire FF sensor. Cropping in camera suggests you plan to have a greater working distance and choose to discard the outside area of your sensor. Cropping in post does the same thing.

 

How about diopters and filters? Are they acceptable but you should prohibit adjusting white balance and making lens corrections in post? Removing distracting items in the frame and artificially influencing sea life behavior clearly questions integrity and skill but choosing to crop in frame vs. in post?

 

If you plan your dive with a subject in mind, take the setup suited to accomplish the task and set up your shot to fill the full frame. If you get the added benefit of a brighter viewfinder, less water between the lens and subject, and more light control, why crop in camera? Shooting ambient light might give you the faster shutter speed mentioned with the D800 but are of little value when using strobes.

 

If you want to fill the frame why not move closer or bring a longer lens? If  shooting unpredictable subjects that are likely to move out of the frame faster than you can track them, appropriate technique and skill would suggest you frame a little looser.  

 

I have no problem if a specific contest has rules prohibiting cropping in post. Should cropping in camera be prohibited as well? I don’t agree it is the preferred technique that demonstrates superior skill of the photographer using a setup that allows them to frame tight while using the full frame vs. the photographer that wants greater working distance and crops in camera.

 

Granted cropping in post allows for more control for framing conventions like rule of 3rds  and straight horizons and I'll give skill kudos to the photographer that can nail that in camera but that holds true for FF images and images cropped in camera. The main image is the same size and the lighting and depth of field are captured the same on the sensor whether you crop in camera or in post given the same equipment configuration and distance to subject.



#32 davichin

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Posted 04 March 2013 - 02:16 PM

I have little interest in photo contests but even if I did, don’t know where I would choose to crop in camera. I am all for getting it right in camera since I prefer to limit processing time and with strobes it shouldn't require much anyway.

 

I read the justification that cropping in camera demonstrates superior skill. Why? If your objective is to fill the frame, use the entire FF sensor. Cropping in camera suggests you plan to have a greater working distance and choose to discard the outside area of your sensor. Cropping in post does the same thing.

 

How about diopters and filters? Are they acceptable but you should prohibit adjusting white balance and making lens corrections in post? Removing distracting items in the frame and artificially influencing sea life behavior clearly questions integrity and skill but choosing to crop in frame vs. in post?

 

If you plan your dive with a subject in mind, take the setup suited to accomplish the task and set up your shot to fill the full frame. If you get the added benefit of a brighter viewfinder, less water between the lens and subject, and more light control, why crop in camera? Shooting ambient light might give you the faster shutter speed mentioned with the D800 but are of little value when using strobes.

 

If you want to fill the frame why not move closer or bring a longer lens? If  shooting unpredictable subjects that are likely to move out of the frame faster than you can track them, appropriate technique and skill would suggest you frame a little looser.  

 

I have no problem if a specific contest has rules prohibiting cropping in post. Should cropping in camera be prohibited as well? I don’t agree it is the preferred technique that demonstrates superior skill of the photographer using a setup that allows them to frame tight while using the full frame vs. the photographer that wants greater working distance and crops in camera.

 

Granted cropping in post allows for more control for framing conventions like rule of 3rds  and straight horizons and I'll give skill kudos to the photographer that can nail that in camera but that holds true for FF images and images cropped in camera. The main image is the same size and the lighting and depth of field are captured the same on the sensor whether you crop in camera or in post given the same equipment configuration and distance to subject.

 

 

Just to clarify: Choosing DX mode in a, for example, D800, BEFORE the shot is not cropping IMO. Cropping in the camera AFTER the shot is the same as cropping at home :)


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#33 E_viking

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Posted 04 March 2013 - 02:37 PM

@ GeorgeH: I suppose that the philosofical difference is a setting that you do before you take the picture or afterwards.

 

I suppose that it is no right or wrong here, as long as competition rules are followed!  Publishing rules???


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#34 John Bantin

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Posted 04 March 2013 - 03:06 PM

Ansel Adams was special because he was unique. Now there are millions of digital Ansel Adams, so it is not special anymore, nor it is as difficult as it was in the old past. The thing is that composing in-camera is becoming more unique though (just make an overview at the many topics where this has been talked about before) and some people will find more merit in an image with not much PS than in the same one if it has needed a lot of PS (EVEN IF THE END RESULT IS THE SAME)...

 

Ansel Adams example is like Dolly the cloned sheep; it was unique and a outstanding technology development and use...but now it is common, possibly done by many, and not very interesting anymore...

Well, years ago we used to say that if it were easy, everyone would be doing it. Well, now it is easy and everyone is!


I buy my own photographic kit. Diving equipment manufacturers and diving services suppliers get even-handed treatment from me whether they choose to advertise in the publications I write for or not. All the equipment I get on loan is returned as soon as it is finished with. Did you know you can now get Diver Mag as an iPad/Android app?

 

#35 davichin

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Posted 04 March 2013 - 03:10 PM

Well, years ago we used to say that if it were easy, everyone would be doing it. Well, now it is easy and everyone is!

 

 

But not because it is easy, just because it is fun!


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#36 Scuba_SI

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Posted 04 March 2013 - 06:52 PM

I think a lot of people forget that the rules of a shootout competition are there for 2 reasons:

1.  To try to give all contestants a fair playing field and to challenge the entrants to get the best out of them.

2.  To make the judges job as simple as possible on the final day.

 

It takes hours to go through the entries and a the cropping rule is easy to check with the raw file.

 

By some of the arguments here competitions should not ask for a raw file as older digital cameras cannot shoot them without a huge write delay. That would be a huge disadvantage.   So should competitions just ask for Jpegs?


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#37 Otara

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Posted 04 March 2013 - 06:54 PM

I understand having to declare cropping so as to take into account its use in judging the overall image.

Banning it is where I get a bit befuddled. But photography competitions in general leave me a bit baffled compared to other art competitions. Just seems to get to the point of me wondering when the 'one arm behind your back' category is going to turn up.

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#38 TomR1

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Posted 04 March 2013 - 08:17 PM

ANY "in the camera" rules is 'one arm behind your back'. I, for one, have zero interest in skills that are "gone with the wind." Because it is "harder" is no reason for me. If you want to make it harder add a "found it myself" category". That skill still has value.

 

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#39 howeikwok

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Posted 04 March 2013 - 08:28 PM

I think a lot of people forget that the rules of a shootout competition are there for 2 reasons:

1.  To try to give all contestants a fair playing field and to challenge the entrants to get the best out of them.

2.  To make the judges job as simple as possible on the final day.

 

It takes hours to go through the entries and a the cropping rule is easy to check with the raw file.

 

By some of the arguments here competitions should not ask for a raw file as older digital cameras cannot shoot them without a huge write delay. That would be a huge disadvantage.   So should competitions just ask for Jpegs?

 

One competition did. The 1st Asian Underwater Federation Photography competition organized under CMAS. Out of camera jpegs allowed only. Some really strict rules in that competition.  :nea:


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#40 Scuba_SI

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Posted 04 March 2013 - 10:49 PM

Alvin, I will be in Singapore tomorrow for 6 hours... sure you dont want that housing?!

 


Tom, I'm not sure I understand your argument in relation to the D800's settings.  With regards to competitions there are usually some 'anything goes' categories with equally good prizes as the other sections that can be entered with cropping.

 


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