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Canon 1DC and 4K Video


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#1 r4e

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 10:28 PM

In addition to RED and C500, Canon 1DC is the only 4K video capable camera with a u/w housing available now.

If you sum up the total cost of camera, housing and proper video monitor, the total price is about half of a RED or C500 system.

 

On vimeo there are some excellent examples of downsampling, cropping and/or panning this 1DC 4K stuff in the edit to produce HD video. From the samples, it would seem that downsampling from 4K to HD, would maximize detail and clarity in HD video. Plus you have the capability of doing IS in the edit without getting problems with the edges.

 

For a long time, I have been wondering what would be the best way to improve noticeably image quality upon my trusted Sony MC50E. I am expecting improvements in one or more areas such as: green and blue water WB, dynamic range, gradability, detail in image, 4K, optical quality, pleasing colours, noise and low-light sensitivity. I was initially excited about the Sony FS100/700, but reports about difficulties with WB have made me hesitate and I have not heard any news on that front. I have dropped the 5D3 away from my list, because of its soft image - yes I know you can improve it in the edit, but... And besides, the video image quality of 5D3 or 1DX is not that much better than my MC50 or 1DIV. 

 

The image quality of a Canon C100 seems perfect for me, eventhough it is only 8bit. I have approached a couple of housing manufacturers, but, they have not yet shown any interest in this camera. With the new BM announcements, they might flock (hopefully) towards BM. But getting any of the announced BM cameras, and a housing as well, might take anything between 6-12 months or more? If the dates for both of these would actually be July 2013, I could wait.

 

---

 

So currently, the 1DC is still on the top of my list. My biggest concern is whether it will be able to shoot continuous 4K clips without overheating. I have made calculations that 1DC generates heat 19.2 watts on average when shooting 4K video, see http://www.canonrumo...p?topic=13916.0

 

Does anyone have knowledge and experience of how long you can shoot 4K before the camera would possibly shut down? Anything less than an hour would limit my work. Without 4K, the HD quality of 1DC is comparable to 5D3, and then the investment would not make any sense.

 

How would this possibly "warm" camera behave in a housing? Would the limited circulation make the situation worse? Or would the relatively cool housing help? I dive mainly in 0C...20C waters. Would a warm camera in a cool housing cause condensation problems in the lense or dome?

 

Am I missing something? Should I consider someother video camera with a housing?


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#2 CheungyDiver

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 11:02 PM

Nice camera. I like it for its compact size and also fit into a 1DX housing. Only if it wasn't so expensive compared to what is available now. It is still only 8 bit 422 in 4K and 8 bit 420 in HD. In 4K only for short duration using super fast CF cards. The 4K is not really 4K raw in that some colour info is baked in. This is not cool technology anymore. Canon is really not innovating in this department when it could well afford to do so. There are still banding issues in flat back grounds  like the 5D although lot less serious. It is good low light camera. Here is a link to Philip Bloom's review and he has taken this camera to its paces...http://philipbloom.net/2013/01/27/1dc/

 

You missed an important housing : - Sony F5/F55

There is a housing by Gates for the Sony F5 and F55. I have one (prototype to show at ADEX (Singapore dive show) ) this 19-21st April at Marina Bay Sands.

 

cheers

David


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#3 CheungyDiver

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 11:16 PM

So currently, the 1DC is still on the top of my list. My biggest concern is whether it will be able to shoot continuous 4K clips without overheating. I have made calculations that 1DC generates heat 19.2 watts on average when shooting 4K video, see http://www.canonrumo...p?topic=13916.0

 

 

Actually how do you record 4K in continuous hour long clips?  Aren't you limited to CF card capacity? The 1DC in 4K is  memory hungry.

 

regards


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#4 escape

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Posted 11 April 2013 - 04:05 AM

I almost bought 1dc but didn't, because it's do 24p only at 4K mode (maybe firmware update will include 30p?)


Edited by escape, 11 April 2013 - 04:09 AM.


#5 MJvC

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Posted 11 April 2013 - 05:07 AM

There is a firmware dew out shortly after NAB but I think they are only planning 25p. 30p might be asking a lot from this camera.



#6 r4e

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Posted 11 April 2013 - 11:12 AM

Actually how do you record 4K in continuous hour long clips?  Aren't you limited to CF card capacity? The 1DC in 4K is  memory hungry.

One hour of 4K video will fit on two 128GB CF cards. They'll need to be the 1000x type, i.e. not very cheap.

For practical reasons each shoot will not be a single one-hour continuous clip, but, rather a number of clips.

 

The point however, is that I would be shooting almost continuously and therefore I am concerned of overheating. I would not be surprised that the camera might have been planned with assumptions like "shoot one minute, then move camera, reframe etc for e.g. 4 minutes" which would reduce power consumption and heat generation a lot.

 

On another forum I got a comment that a RED camera would overheat from 6 minutes of continuous shooting. Can this be true?


Edited by r4e, 11 April 2013 - 11:44 AM.

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#7 r4e

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Posted 11 April 2013 - 11:39 AM

You missed an important housing : - Sony F5/F55. There is a housing by Gates for the Sony F5 and F55.

Thanks David for your comments. However a F5 will cost even more than a RED setup.

 

I do agree with you that 8 bits might be limiting. The benefit with Canon is that they seem quite capable of white balancing in difficult u/w conditions.

 

Today, there were some interesting developments on the FS700 with Odyssey 7Q. 4K with DR of 15 stops sounds very interesting. But, I am wondering whether the bit depth is still 8 bits. This combined with the limitations of green water white balancing (as reported on the FS100) might still be a problem underwater... I am looking forward to somebody solving this dilemma with FS100/700.


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#8 CheungyDiver

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Posted 11 April 2013 - 11:44 AM

yeah RED cameras have 'hair-dryer' fans which kicks in when hot. very noisy. they have a new fan upgrade launched at NAB with some fancy software to control heat and fan noise. I personally just use a quiet computer fan on top of the Epic powered from a D-tap. 

 

The1DC is just like the 1DX and uses the entire camera chassis as heat sink. A nice aluminium housing should help reduce overheating. 

 

CF card at 100 mbs 128GB is around USD 650.00 for two it is still cheaper than a RED SSD 128GB...LOL


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#9 CheungyDiver

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Posted 11 April 2013 - 11:55 AM

Thanks David for your comments. However a F5 will cost even more than a RED setup.

 

I do agree with you that 8 bits might be limiting. The benefit with Canon is that they seem quite capable of white balancing in difficult u/w conditions.

 

Today, there were some interesting developments on the FS700 with Odyssey 7Q. 4K with DR of 15 stops sounds very interesting. But, I am wondering whether the bit depth is still 8 bits. This combined with the limitations of green water white balancing (as reported on the FS100) might still be a problem underwater... I am looking forward to somebody solving this dilemma with FS100/700.

Yes. One thing Canon got right is the low light to IQ with their sensors. I just wish they are a little bit more adventurous.......Too many DSLR they brought out recently is literally way behind their competitors. Canon cameras IMHO is way overpriced.

 

More players hungry to get market share means more choices which is good for consumers. I would take the 15 stops of DR with a pinch of salt. 

Sony timed the firmware just as RED Dragon sensor upgrade was launched. On the other hand I can't believe people would flock to upgrade without any confirmed solid specs and Dragon footage.


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#10 jonny shaw

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Posted 11 April 2013 - 02:08 PM

 

On another forum I got a comment that a RED camera would overheat from 6 minutes of continuous shooting. Can this be true?

 

Load of rubbish, I just did a studio shoot two weeks ago and it was really hot air temp probably close to 30C and ran continuously for over an hour and that was recording, the fan never went above 50% and temp was fine. When you stop recording though the fan kicks in at full tilt and the hairdryer comes back ;)

 

On the 1DC I saw some underwater surf footage from it at 4k and there was banding, pretty pronounced actually.


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#11 CheungyDiver

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Posted 11 April 2013 - 05:37 PM

9.jpg

 

 

I use one of these to keep my "hair-dryer"quiet especially for interviews and talking heads. Had this on all the time now.

USD 450.00 is a bit steep for a fan, new logo and grille. Maybe the algorithm software for camera brain is worth it.  

 

I agree the 1DC banding is as bad as my hacked GH2. 8 bit colour space is limiting. Canon has to get their act together.

 

cheers

 

David


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#12 Drew

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 06:56 AM

The 1DC image bands pretty much like an 8bit jpeg.  It's ok if you watch where you are pointing it with a wide angle lens but once you point it at open water with a large gradation of light (eg, dark to white blue), it will band, especially on a fisheye.  I would shoot 20-24mm to control the image quality a bit more, which may not be what you require for your wreck and cave shots.
 
Regarding the FS700, if you are going to shoot RAW, WB doesn't really matter.  The CD Odyssey 7q has a quirky way of dealing with the licensing the RAW codecs though.

As for the 5D3, the big difference is the lack of moiré and aliasing compared to the older 1D4.  I haven't seen any +6db clips from the MC50, but I'd put money down that the 5D3/1DX/C, would be less noisy by 2 stops at least.  And if you use a Ninja (which hopefully someone will house soon!), 422 Pro Res is an option for clean low noise video.

You are right that most of the cool stuff isn't available right now and the 1DC is. However, to blow 20k on a rig, that possible just became old tech with the recent announcements is a bad investment.  Renting a Red Epic/Scarlet rig for your shoot would be a better option, especially since Black Magic's cameras have just jolted the industry and will likely cause prices to drop.

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#13 Cp

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 07:45 AM

Hi All,

 

I've been shooting a bit with the 1DC underwater, and have a little demo reel so you can see the results for yourselves:

 

This is with the 1080p option on Vimeo enabled (which does it's own re-compression) so you may need to let it buffer to play smoothly. Click the vimeo link and then click the full screen button. 

 

I also have some wide angle, blue water footage, though not with me here (still in Las Vegas from NAB). While you can see noise in it at 1:1, it is no worse than a ton of other footage I've seen. As you'd expect, it is dependent on ISO and how far it is pushed in post. Clearly with 8-bit you will have less headroom to push than with RAW but my feeling at this point is that if it is exposed and color balanced correctly while shooting, the video is beautiful. 

 

I did not have overheating issues, and we did get to test the heat issue this before releasing this housing, so it appears that heat is not an issue.

 

In regard to the continuous shooting question, one thing to note is that the 1DC will break the clips into 4GB chunks. They are easily reconnected in post.

 

Cheers,

Cp

 


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#14 CheungyDiver

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 05:56 PM

Beautiful footage Chris. There is no doubt about the ability of the 1DC. But at what price?

 

Canon should be able to do this even with 5D mIII. Not trying to throw dirt on the 1DC but Canon is not breaking out of the limitation of 8 bit codex when everyone else offer way beyond that. I know it is not easy but hey Canon is a big player. BMD pocket cam is 10 bit 4 2 2. The 4K cam is USD 4K. Canon at NAB has no answer. Not sure they even have a booth. 

 

Great if people has the 1DC already and get a housing for it. I am predicting Canon may do a price drop when people start showing images from the BMD cameras. BMD is shaking up the industry yet again. I think housing manufacturer cannot ignore these cameras.

 

Loved the zoom effect in post. 

 

Cheers

David


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#15 Drew

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 09:10 PM

Canon is definitely @ NAB.   I think they are pushing towards taking on Sony and Panasonic in the broadcast with the 4k 60fps C500, now that they are somewhat established as a film production camera.  They sent out lots of info on the C500 and the 3G SDI for broadcast use, including live feeds etc.  Like most big companies, Canon won't be at the leading edge of technology.
The 1DC is still the only FF 35mm sensor that shoots 4k (in APS-H) and as you can see, for closeups, it has wonderful detail.  10bit 422 would probably create heat issues in such a small package. Remember the BMPCC is a very small sensor and is only HD, whereas the 1DC is  18mp 35mm squeezing into 4k mjpeg.  It's the processor speeds and also media speed (CF card).
I'll try to remember to push the 1DC to overheat once I get my hands on one next month.  I managed to get the 5D3 to shutdown in 35°C humid conditions in Sri Lanka last month.  I didn't push the 1Dx that far but I'm guessing it can overheat. However, for Richard's purposes, which is wrecks and caves underwater in a aluminum housing in cool to cold water, I would think it's less of an issue.
Richard, if I were you, to be safe, I'd rent a rig first to see if the 8bit banding is something you can live with.  It may well be that you don't mind it.  I still say with careful lens choice (not too wide), the banding issue can be somewhat controlled.  However, if one plans on putting it online, the compression can create the banding any ways. 

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#16 Cp

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Posted 13 April 2013 - 10:10 AM

HI David,
 
Canon definitely had a booth at NAB - huge and very nice. They had quite a lot on 4K, showing off the C500 and 4K workflow. I wish I would have had more time to really check it out, but we were very busy at our booth. I didn't even get a chance to see the new cinema lenses which I wanted to. 
 
I agree about BlackMagic shaking up the industry and am glad to see it. Competition is good! Still, keep in mind that they really have not shipped much yet... the 4K is not yet available, the Pocket is not yet available, and the most common questions we heard in the BlackMagic booth had to with the late delivery of the 2.5K camera and the implications that had for these two new cameras. The poor guys in the BMD booth were great about being patient with people but I imagine they were very happy to answer questions other than those having to do with deliveries. The BlackMagic is very interesting. But there are complexities and limitations with this camera, just as any other camera.
 
The 1DC is available now, and I really like having all of that resolution to work with. Zoom to HD in post is such a fun ability to have. The 1DC is aimed at the SLR video crowd... big sensor, 4k, easy workflow. Canon's answer to the RED/Sony/BMC would be the C500, 4k at 60fps 10-bit RAW.
 
Unfortunately for me, we just sent our demo 1DC off on a project for a month... no 4K for me for while... no, wait a moment, there is another option.... :)
 
Cheers,
Cp
 

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#17 r4e

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Posted 15 April 2013 - 10:09 PM

Thanks everybody for the excellent information sofar on this topic. I just came back from a long weekend in the mines of Tuna-Hästberg. Got some good footage on my MC50 eventhough my HMI lamp decided not to cooperate.


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#18 r4e

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Posted 15 April 2013 - 10:40 PM

I've been shooting a bit with the 1DC underwater, and have a little demo reel so you can see the results for yourselves:

 

I also have some wide angle, blue water footage, though not with me here (still in Las Vegas from NAB). While you can see noise in it at 1:1, it is no worse than a ton of other footage I've seen. As you'd expect, it is dependent on ISO and how far it is pushed in post. Clearly with 8-bit you will have less headroom to push than with RAW but my feeling at this point is that if it is exposed and color balanced correctly while shooting, the video is beautiful. 

Thanks Chris for your beautiful footage. It does look very encouraging. Please do post your blue water wide angle footage as well as this might be quite relevant for me.

 

For my marine archaelogy work, I do have a team for placing the lights in optimum positions whilst scanning the wrecks. So controlled exposure should be easy.

 

For cave diving, I would need to take advantage of sensor sensitivity. I wonder how much the warming up of the 1DC sensor will affect the low-light noise levels of the sensor. Video footage in caves would definitely benefit from a much larger dynamic range than the 8 bit camera can offer. Considering the safety related task loading, reliable auto exposure would benefit me a lot. The challenge is to balance between well-lit foreground objects and dimly-lit vast halls. Without the DR, the end result on the video often is a diver floating in black space...


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#19 r4e

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Posted 15 April 2013 - 11:01 PM

Thanks Drew for your advice in post #12. Since I am talking about using some of my personal savings, I am facing a difficult decision between rational thinking and temptation...

 

I'll try to remember to push the 1DC to overheat once I get my hands on one next month.  I managed to get the 5D3 to shutdown in 35°C humid conditions in Sri Lanka last month.  I didn't push the 1Dx that far but I'm guessing it can overheat. However, for Richard's purposes, which is wrecks and caves underwater in a aluminum housing in cool to cold water, I would think it's less of an issue.

I really would appreciate any further information about how far you can push an 1DC in an u/w housing before overheating.

 

On another forum, one person commented that he was able to shoot 30 minutes, i.e. one CF card, despite the white warning icon. However, this was on the surface.


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#20 Drew

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Posted 16 April 2013 - 01:29 AM

Richard

Even if I manage to overheat the 1DC in a housing, it'll be in  27°C water with relative humidity over 70%, with a lined housing vs a bare aluminum housing.   It'd be apple vs oranges and not an accurate test, vs your conditions, which I assume will be much cooler and drier.  I doubt heat is a serious condition. And if you insert a desiccant in the housing to absorb the moisture in the air, it'd be hard to see condensation.  Most times, it's cold water and warm topside with direct sunlight that makes condensation a real issue for aluminum housings.  In fact, I saw the Nauticam Rossa fog up under direct sunlight in Sri Lanka.  Covering it up with a towel removed the issue.

If you want the most dynamic range, then you'll have to rent an Epic or Alexa.  The Epic in HDRx mode has about 14+ stops but you have to grade it well.  The Alexa has only 1 housing and it's really a hacked housing for pool work.

If this project pays, then you should use whatever the project budget allows.  Only use your own money when the returns will be higher than expenditure.


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