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#21 Davide DB

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Posted 12 July 2013 - 04:06 AM

Biased comment as usual and canon don't even pay you.
You are the disgrace of this forum.

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#22 errbrr

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Posted 12 July 2013 - 04:29 AM

I don't do all that much video, but I can add the thing that hasn't been said...what about your lights?? Cave diving means you can set your colour temperature once and leave it. I would also suggest moving your Solas off camera, and if you like them, getting a few more. Scatter enough lights about and even the GoPro will look good.



#23 Joseph

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Posted 12 July 2013 - 05:14 AM

Good to see everybody has their preferences. LOL

Joseph, looking at your video comparison, you can see how sensor quality makes a difference. 

A few things to consider:

 

1.  The 6D has better DR and noise over the GH3 in the wheel house ISO range you'll be shooting.  That means if you are shooting 400 to 1600ISO, the shadow areas will be noisier and more pronounced with the GH3.

 

2.  The software correction for Pana lenses only work on Pana cameras.

 

3.  You will also probably have to upgrade your FCP7 (and possibly your computer) to work natively in real time with MPEG4 codecs.  That's a whole other topic.

 

4.  The GH3 does have better resolution, but also a bit more false detail sharpness.  The 6D looks softer initially but does handle sharpening well.  

 

5.  Lens choice: the EF range has many more choices for lenses than the MFT range.  For example, with a 1.4x converter the 8-15 or 10-17 gives you a useable fisheye zoom.  

Good luck in making your choice! :)

Hey Drew and everyone else commenting on this thread. I have investigated and priced every device recommended on this forum.

 

Panadol and scotch is helping my head with all this information  :)  But THANK YOU all!!

 

In answer to above:

 

1 - For the extra money and for the amount of paid work I do, I am willing to sacrifice some quality for budget. There is so much coming out that in 3 years that this unit, as with the 5D/6D/D800's, will be obsolete and I intend on upgrading back to a dedicated Video Unit. 4K seems to be approaching fast but I do not want a first run product that needs a lot of updates etc. Part of my BIG RUSH is a trip to Bikini Atoll coming up in 12 days which gives me just enough time too get my stuff together (can not get a 6D before the trip but can get 5DIII or D800). 

 

2 - So FCP7 or X not enough for col correction?

 

3 - This does concern me. I have FCPX but prefer 7. From the Specs online I read the GH3 writes .MOV which I assumed I could import into both X & 7. Found http://www.brorsoft....-mac/index.html

 to convert. Not sure how painful this will be.

 

As for Luck making a choice - More Panadol and scotch.

 

Anyone think of a way to tweak my Sony A1p to do a better job? If so I may hold off for anther few years altogether. Have a 100 Wide Angle and 70 degree Flat port on this system. Does almost everything - again not in poor lighting.


Edited by Joseph, 12 July 2013 - 05:25 AM.


#24 kc_moses

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Posted 12 July 2013 - 05:34 AM

Since your budget is $7k - $15k, let's look at it this way:

If your budget is at the lower range, you won't be able to get the 5DIII (the camera and housing is already close to $7K!)

If your budget is in the middle of the range, 6D (if you agree with Drew)

If your budget is in the upper range, then 5DMIII (if you're willing to spend time to grow into it), you can sell the 5DMIII in the future easily.

 

If you don't want to go with dSLR (because budget/learning curve/size), M3/4 + more light will still keep you in the lower range of your budget.

 

With all these said, if you're remotely curious about the LX-7, do check out this:

 

From his info box in Youtube, he has link to download the original AVCHD 1080p file, so you can analyst the quality of the footage.

 

As for your A1P last try of improvement, I would say color balance to your light when you're in the cave, for outside the cave, custom white balance (compare to auto) and see what works for your liking.

 

Peace!



#25 Joseph

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Posted 12 July 2013 - 05:54 AM

BMCC: a lot of announcements and hopes but no housing at the moment. 

 

Nauticam Housing supposed to be ready for the 2.5K Mid / Late July



#26 Drew

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Posted 12 July 2013 - 06:05 AM

Joseph, I'm pretty sure paracetamol and scotch (or any other kind of alcohol) is NOT a good mix!!!

 

The Bikini wrecks usually have great viz and thus light. However, a 1/3" sensor shooting at 60+m is going to suffer noise in the background blues.  The A1P will start struggling around 30m or so, even in great viz.  Lights are good for about 1.2m away before the warmer spectrum is absorbed too much to make a difference.  I haven't been in years but I remember the Nagato and the Saratoga quite well.  I think you'll be fine with 640-1250ISO or so, if you want to keep @ f11 or so.  The Saratoga's bridge is an awesome sight.

 

You only mentioned FCP7 so I assumed that's what you had.  FCP7 doesn't handle MPEG4 formats very efficiently, in that it doesn't use all cores once you add color correction etc. So you may need to transcode to Pro Res for real time playback.  The GH3 does record the ALL-I file in .mov, but still requires a bit of CPU/GPU aid to play native real time with effects.  FCX does a better job with the right hardware, but best performance is when it renders in the background for native playback.  FCX can do the color correction for most codecs natively, but not in real time without rendering (background etc), other than on the most powerful Mac Pros or latest Mac Book Pros. If you have FCX, there's no need to convert.

 

It's really only a headache if you first don't list down what you want more methodically. If it's noise performance at a certain price range, then it's easier than what's good now generic questions where people tell you what they have and why they love it.  There's no one camera that does it all, so compromises will have to be made.

 

If you don't think you want to buy, then rent for this trip.  Check with Scubapix on what's available.


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#27 Joseph

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Posted 12 July 2013 - 06:18 AM

Since your budget is $7k - $15k, let's look at it this way:

 

If you don't want to go with dSLR (because budget/learning curve/size), M3/4 + more light will still keep you in the lower range of your budget.

 

With all these said, if you're remotely curious about the LX-7, do check out this:

 

As for your A1P last try of improvement, I would say color balance to your light when you're in the cave, for outside the cave, custom white balance (compare to auto) and see what works for your liking.!

Again more thanks

 

By chance my Dive Buddy has all the Ports and Lenses I need should I purchase the GH3 so my initial cost is under $4k and I get to play in Bikini.

 

Watched the LX-7 and yes its impressive but I do want more and I believe I will get a lot more in the GH3 (correct me if I am wrong please).

 

A1p - I always manually WB at every light change. For caves are you suggesting a pre-set?

 

I do have the option to just run with what I have. I still love my A1p. The simplicity of either Flat port vs Wide angle. And as per attached Pic I can use the GP3 when i need a better sensor. This still may be my best option so as to enjoy the diving as well as the videography.

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Edited by Joseph, 12 July 2013 - 06:39 AM.


#28 Joseph

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Posted 12 July 2013 - 06:30 AM

Joseph, I'm pretty sure paracetamol and scotch (or any other kind of alcohol) is NOT a good mix!!!

 

 The A1P will start struggling around 30m or so, even in great viz.  Lights are good for about 1.2m away before the warmer spectrum is absorbed too much to make a difference. 

 

FCX can do the color correction for most codecs natively, but not in real time without rendering (background etc), other than on the most powerful Mac Pros or latest Mac Book Pros. If you have FCX, there's no need to convert.

 

It's really only a headache if you first don't list down what you want more methodically. If it's noise performance at a certain price range, then it's easier than what's good now generic questions where people tell you what they have and why they love it.  There's no one camera that does it all, so compromises will have to be made.

 

If you don't think you want to buy, then rent for this trip.  Check with Scubapix on what's available.

Which Anti headache medication do you recommend with Scotch  :martini:

 

Sony @ 30 Mtrs Plus. Red Filter off, Lights on and I sometimes WB with lights on on a Blue Slate then can turn lights off and have a similar effect to the red filter.

 

I have a fairly new iMac with both SSD and Sata drive as well as Thunderbolt for storage. Have a new MBPro but love the real estate of the 27" and my 2nd screen.

 

Thanks for the heads up on FCPX. Have dabbled with it but I love the Canvas and Viewer option in 7 as well as data storage.

 

Rent. Hmmmm More Panadol (will hold off on the scotch)



#29 Joseph

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Posted 12 July 2013 - 06:47 AM

 don't do all that much video, but I can add the thing that hasn't been said...what about your lights?? Cave diving means you can set your colour temperature once and leave it. I would also suggest moving your Solas off camera, and if you like them, getting a few more. Scatter enough lights about and even the GoPro will look good.

My Sony A1p has no Colour Temp setting other than Manual, Auto, Indoor and Outdoor. The Later 2 would be a type of Temp preset but thats it. Technology has changed so much since 2006 when this unit was released. 

 

Moving the Lights - Will try. More Lights $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$


Edited by Joseph, 12 July 2013 - 06:48 AM.


#30 kc_moses

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Posted 12 July 2013 - 08:59 AM

My Sony A1p has no Colour Temp setting other than Manual, Auto, Indoor and Outdoor. The Later 2 would be a type of Temp preset but thats it. Technology has changed so much since 2006 when this unit was released. 

 

Moving the Lights - Will try. More Lights $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

 

Ahh...... your Sony A1P doesn't let you color balance to color temp, then you don't have much choice. Ideally when you're in the cave, you set the white balance to the temp of your light (i.e. if your light is 5000K, then set white balance to 5000K). Your problem now is that your A1P footage is too green, and the GP3 is too blue. You can't do anything with the GP3.

 

Let's try this:

When you're in the cave, have the light on, custom white balance the A1P using a white slate but make sure the light hit the slate. In that case you should get the closer temperature of the light.

 

In term of GH3 vs LX-7. GH3 should be better since it has larger sensor size, but ( :mocking: ) the treat off is it get complicated and expensive, and depends on what lens you use. Also, I'm not familiar with GH3, but finding a 1.4f lens for the GH3 (or any M3/4) could be challenging if not costly.

 

Sensor size is not everything. Just look at it here:

 

On paper, the 1" sensor (or any ASP-C size) should better than a 1/1.7" sensor, but the lens is what make the camera as well.

 

So, lens speed is critical. If you can find a 1.4F lens that go with the GH3, it should be better than LX-7.



#31 Joseph

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Posted 12 July 2013 - 09:13 AM

For the hell of it I am trying to recreate the same Sony Vs GoPro comparison  using FCPX instead of 7. 

 

So different. For every thing I like there is more I dislike about X.

 

Any Advice on transitioning from one to the other?

 

Also Plug Ins for FCP 7 and X without spending $1000 - Comments?


Edited by Joseph, 12 July 2013 - 09:37 AM.


#32 Joseph

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Posted 12 July 2013 - 09:30 AM

Sensor size is not everything. Just look at it here:

 

So, lens speed is critical. If you can find a 1.4F lens that go with the GH3, it should be better than LX-7.

See your point.



#33 Joseph

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Posted 12 July 2013 - 06:13 PM

Same Clips as per first comparison video. Have played (albeit roughly) with Colour Correction in FCP 7 & X and uploaded to YouTube. 

 

Sony A1p vs GoPro Col FCP "7"

 

Sony A1p vs GoPro Col FCP "X"

 

Call me Lazy but I love that I can do almost no Col Cor in reasonable conditions.


Edited by Joseph, 12 July 2013 - 08:20 PM.


#34 Joseph

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Posted 12 July 2013 - 08:30 PM

Back to A1P in th Amphibico and use of the Flip Filter. Above 5 mtr no filter. 5 - 25 mtr filter on and Man WB every 5 meters. From 25/35 mtrs onwards I again take the filter off (depending on ambient light), then use lights and do WB. Up close colour is great  and the fact that most of the background is blue is not that important.

 

So for DSLR and Point and Shoot, what do you do to compensate for colour loss at depth prior to needing lights?

 

Filters? Settings? Both?



#35 Joseph

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Posted 12 July 2013 - 08:36 PM

I don't do all that much video.

Liz - Your reputation precedes you. 

 

I am relatively new to the Cave side of diving and have just started shooting in these environments.

 

Most of my Video work has been shallow and in well lit environments. Caves and deep wrecks certainly pose a challenge in comparison.

 

Hope to meet you some day.



#36 Pete L

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Posted 13 July 2013 - 12:00 AM

How often do you travel & what sort of travel do you do? Driving, flying etc?

Just how important is sizing/weight at the end of the day?

Maybe a sony EX1R or PMW200 might be worth a look?

Cheers Pete.


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#37 Joseph

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Posted 13 July 2013 - 02:41 AM

How often do you travel & what sort of travel do you do? Driving, flying etc?

Just how important is sizing/weight at the end of the day?

Usually 2 International trips a year + interstate.

 

Both of these are lovely units but too big for travel (add the weight of an RB into the equation).



#38 kc_moses

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Posted 13 July 2013 - 09:01 AM

I never get below 119 ft/36m, so I can't speak for 40m range. But most of my dives haven been in the tropic, where visibility could be 80 to 100 ft easily, so even at 100ft depth, I still use magic filter and custom white balance. I have been doing it this way mainly because I have the film type magic filter, that's inside the housing, so it's not removable under water. They do make m67 wet magic filter so I will move toward that direction int he future.

 

I brought light during the day dive in my recent trip, and found that I don't really need it, and it could be confusing to use because it's hard to tell where the light have covered. Like I said, the light only hit about 5 ft in front of you. So in my situation, the close subject may look okay, but any thing after that just look too blue. With great visibility and bright day light, I would use custom white balance all the way and forget about light. But that's just the way I do it.

 

In your new color corrected video, for the FCP "7" video the upper right corner one looks more normal, I assume that's the Sony because the left column video are very wash out and have that fisheye look, so I assume that's goPro (Please put caption to identify which is which). I use Sony Vegas so can't help you on the FCP department.



#39 Drew

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Posted 13 July 2013 - 02:05 PM

Noise is a function of pixel pitch size on sensors.  Interceptor121's comparison video doesn't really compare the sensor performance but the exposure metering, and that too is a bit apples and oranges because it's not the same frame matching (FOV).  The RX100 video is narrower because of the narrower lens and thus the exposure is different than the wider LX7 video.  It also doesn't take into account the different DOF from the sensor sizes.  The pixel pitch of the 2 cameras, I'm guessing are in the 2-2.5micron range.  So their noise performance will be similar but the DOF difference from the sensor size also has to be accounted for.  A faster lens is necessary on a smaller sensor because of diffraction.  The equivalent DOF is the important factor. 

 

Here is DXOMark's comparison of the sensors:

http://bit.ly/14Ono5B

 

Anyhow, going back to Joseph's issues.  

 

Your GP3B can be set to WB @ 6500°K which should keep things in color temp range of your Sola 4k, which are I believe 6k°K.

 

All of the cameras listed will have higher resolution because of the MPEG4 compression @ a much higher bit rate than the MPEG2 25mbps A1P.  I owned the A1 and did reviews of housing with the A1 years ago so I'm quite familiar with the camera and system.   There's a thread on MWB with HDV cameras which you may want to search for.

 

You will have to choose what qualities you want in a camera's output.  When you scoot under the landing deck of the Saratoga etc, you will need lights. But if you want silhouette shots or matched ambient with lights for close subject color, the low light and dynamic range at high ISO will be important.

 

Tom Land has a video out with the 5D3 at 100m, which is deeper than what you will encounter @ most of the wrecks at Bikini.

 

 

Some of the banding is the Vimeo compression and the color correction isn't the best but the noise levels at 100m is very good.

 

 


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#40 Joseph

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Posted 13 July 2013 - 05:47 PM

I never get below 119 ft/36m, so I can't speak for 40m range. But most of my dives haven been in the tropic, where visibility could be 80 to 100 ft easily, so even at 100ft depth, I still use magic filter and custom white balance. 

 

In your new color corrected video, for the FCP "7" video the upper right corner one looks more normal, I assume that's the Sony because the left column video are very wash out and have that fisheye look, so I assume that's goPro (Please put caption to identify which is which). I use Sony Vegas so can't help you on the FCP department.

Until recently my trips have been relatively shallow where most of my footage was taken in the 5 - 25 meter range. The A1p still produces great footage in these ranges using manual WB + flip filter (URPro). 

 

You Tube - Sorry about that. I put it in the comments re which camera is which.

 

After doing a lot more of my editing I can see the  A1p still produces a superior product but its just lacking light.