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Kinefinity and Beyond


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#1 CheungyDiver

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Posted 24 August 2013 - 02:37 AM

Here is another camera for shooting RAW footage. Looks like it is a good size and straight forward enough to put inside a housing.

 

 

 

http://www.kinefinit.../category/blog/

 

 

Records into standard SSD and Cineform RAW and from the description fairly light in weight. Sensor is S35 which is nice and looking at some of the footage it is not shabby either. I know from first glance it resembles something... .. It is made in China and probably a copy. Well I am pretty surprised with the company's progress.  This may look like in form factor like some well known camera but it is definitely developed from the ground up especially the first KineRaw camera and that was a biggy. I have been following this product since the beginning and they seems to get better and better.

 

One for the UW housing manufacturers to consider?

 

Cheers

David 


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#2 Drew

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Posted 24 August 2013 - 08:12 PM

David, that's a 4k sensor but only shoots 2k via a crop, so it's similar to a 2/3" sensor.  I can't imagine the noise performance will be good even.  


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#3 CheungyDiver

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Posted 24 August 2013 - 09:09 PM

Hey Drew

 

Just watch the video interview. The tech's english is not good but he did say with their 4K recorder it could do 4K. Not cheaper than the Black Magic 4K sure. Do you have evidence that noise will be poor with this camera? The video produced by their German distributor looked not bad. Anyway why the negativity? I keep an open mind until I know more.


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#4 Drew

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Posted 25 August 2013 - 07:13 AM

Not being negative, David.To fit this in a housing, one is looking at using B4 lenses to get the right FOV because of the crop. That means the housing has to be pretty darn big to fit lenses like the digiprimes/zooms or the Fuji/Canon ENG.

I also saw the test clips from the KineRaw S35.  It was pretty good but the noise past ISO1600 was pretty obvious.  Some liken it to "filmic" grain like.  It's noisier than even the BMCC 2.5k, which has higher resolution and a better choice with MFT for a balanced housing.

Furthermore, look at the pricing. At $7+k (camera + recorder) to record 4k RAW, when the BMCC4k is fitted and ready to shoot @ just under $4k.

Now when the recorder comes out, we'll have to revisit this camera. But right now, I don't see any real reason for a big rush by housing manufacturers to cover this camera, not with the BMCC4k coming online (maybe even this year! :)) , and even a ML enhanced 5D3 shooting RAW.


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#5 CheungyDiver

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Posted 25 August 2013 - 05:51 PM

Trouble with 5D MIII is the lack of fast and stable CF cards.  I chew up two Komputer 64GB cards. Keep sending them back and never gets any more reliable. Got a Lexar 128GB 1000x and it only go up to 75mbs on average. Unless there is a card that has 256GB and has sustain speed of 100mbs - 120mbs and longer battery life it will never going to be taken seriously. Just too risky and cumbersome to use multiples and 5DMIII and cards in a shoot. Workflow aren't that quick. Sure it will improve with more software supporting ML Raw.

 

As for housing for KineRaw Mini it will depend on the manufacturers. As it cost about the same as a 5DMIII (in China). Lot less hassle to get 2K raw or soon 4K raw. Don't get me wrong. I am very happy with my 5D and ML.

This is about more choice. I think you will eat your own words this time next year about KineRaw S35. The improvements they have made since last year. Incredible effort. Their domestic market is humongous. Just to keep you in the loop. All the major players in China already have this camera and also even the famous ones use it as B-Cam if not A-Cam especially for commercial advertising. The mounts are interchangeable.Most would still  shoot Epic and Alexas or Sony. Cinema industry is not like normal consumers they just use the best and cheapest where ever possible. I would use a 4K cam costing a fraction of more expensive one on a speed car chase or RC helicopter over water any day. What KineRaw  lack is a big marketing machine. BS sells but delivery as promised is important too. The slowness with BMCC is turning once supporters away. They better deliver very soon and guess where they make their cameras ;)

 

I think they will have a fully functioning 4K by NAB without the recorder and the recorder will be for 6K. This China manufacturer is getting into the niches and I predict will probably be the biggest Cinema Camera for their market and if they get distributors around the world then who knows. 

 

I am really quite disheartened to see the orbs and black holes problems in the sample footage from the BM Pocket Cinema. Black Magic have a few bugs to fix. Cheap has its compromises I guess.

 

 

 

cheers

David 


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#6 Drew

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Posted 25 August 2013 - 08:55 PM

Well my Lexar 128GB hits  90+MB/s and can record 1080p30 @ 2.2:1.  There are fakes around, especially if you bought yours from Amazon.   Buy from B&H or Adorama.

I don't even consider Komputer Bay cards after all of mine just died.  I managed to get my money back though.  Apparently they now have a 1050x 256GB but I'll hold my breath until it breaks down. :)

I do know about the KineRaw S35 (not the mini).  A couple of my production friends have these in Shanghai, along side their Epics.  They like the files coming out of it but not crazy about the moiré/aliasing and limited fps.  In fact, we came up with the idea of using an "old" tube Red One housing and adapt it to work with the KineRaw for a test.  But they are too busy working and I'm not that interested due to the 2k output.

I have nothing against Chinese made products, well I am reticent about the work environment and environmental issues.  Even companies who manufacture in China try to keep the "China" quiet because of the QC issues stigma.  Just look at Nauticam's rusting issue (just saw a friend's D4 housing have rust) or of course, Blackmagic's BMPCC.  At least the BMCC 2.5k is flowing and working now.
Hey Red started off selling alpha and beta products and look where it is now.  The KineRaw S35 doesn't have that feeling but that's because it's limiting the output.  I appreciate what the KineRaw is trying to do.  I don't really appreciate the "knock off" design, but hey if they aren't getting sued, then it must be ok! :)  Then again, if they try to do this outside of China, maybe they will get sued.  Look at Red and Sony playing ping pong with lawsuits.


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#7 peterbkk

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Posted 26 August 2013 - 01:38 AM

Here is another camera for shooting RAW footage. Looks like it is a good size and straight forward enough to put inside a housing.

 

 

http://www.kinefinit.../category/blog/

 

 

One for the UW housing manufacturers to consider?

 

Cheers

David 

 

This one does look interesting.

 

Did I understand correctly that, with EF lenses, it can do auto-focus, iris control but not image stabilisation?

 

I love these hungry new manufacturers.

 

Regards

Peter



#8 CheungyDiver

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Posted 26 August 2013 - 02:16 AM

Yup Peter

 

Might even fit inside your Carbo-fibre housing :)  with room to spare for battery and recorder. 

 

It is still too early to say but the footage at 2K is definitely not worst than BMCC 2.5K

 

Again no one knows how this KineRaw Mini will be like UW.  A friend of mine might be able to bring one in someone next month. Fingers crossed.

 

cheers

David


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#9 Drew

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Posted 26 August 2013 - 07:01 AM

Peter, from what I understand, no AF, just EIC.

David, in many cases RAW isn't needed, so a professional editing codec like ProRes is needed in a camera.  If one is shooting near surface stuff, there's not real need for RAW. That's what the BM products have over all other cameras in the price range.  The ML5D3 is based on non-clean HDMI output, so it's RAW or IPB.  The KineRAW Mini is RAW DNG or Cineform RAW.  They need a DNxHD or ProRes to complete the camera.


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#10 CheungyDiver

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Posted 26 August 2013 - 04:19 PM

Agreed. They are discussion licensing Prores with Apple.

 

I have the feeling that these guys could do anything if they wanted to. Just a matter of time.

 

BM is BS at the moment. They have to fix the bugs in the BMPCC.   


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#11 peterbkk

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Posted 26 August 2013 - 09:26 PM

 
I have the feeling that these guys could do anything if they wanted to. Just a matter of time.
 


Wouldn't it be nice if these guys could work with someone like yourself and Nauticam to engineer the optimal state-of-the-art underwater video camera...
 

Peter, from what I understand, no AF, just EIC.
.


I used to scoff at photographers who liked AF. Now, with aging eyes and slower reactions, I NEED AF. (sobbing)
 

#12 Drew

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Posted 27 August 2013 - 02:03 AM

I don't think KineRaw will get Apple Pro Res without passing the copyright gauntlet in the US market first.

 

Peter, you can keep the eyes and reflexes sharp with training.  that means less computer monitor time! :)


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#13 peterbkk

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Posted 27 August 2013 - 02:54 AM

that means less computer monitor time! :)

 

I tried your suggestion but I couldn't see what I was typing with the monitor turned off.



#14 Drew

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Posted 28 August 2013 - 02:33 AM

Use the force, Peter... you don't need the monitor! :)


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#15 thani

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Posted 01 October 2013 - 01:14 AM

I stumbled on this comparative video:
http://www.cinema5d.com/?p=20902
Best Regards,
Thani

#16 CheungyDiver

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Posted 01 October 2013 - 05:43 PM

Thanks for that Thani

 

looks like 5DMIII with ML has slight edge in low light. The Kinefinity Mini is not bad either. We are not looking at the raw image so can't know for sure in between with the grading and editing. It is always difficult for camera to shoot that kind of shots. Straight into the sun and then subject's face in shadow. What's with the JJ Abram type lens flare on the Kine? They used the same lens. I am sure Kine will improve with better firmware and hopefully better native ISO. Certainly when they have work out the 4K recorder.

 

cheers

David


Proprietor of Scubacam, Singapore. Commercial videocameraman. Also shoot digital stills. I modify and built stuff. I love technology. Camera: Red Epic/ Scarlet and soon Dragon

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#17 Drew

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Posted 03 October 2013 - 03:25 AM

Well it's also about the skin tones. And the 5D3 is just nicer.  Then again, the proper comparison is against the great mysterious Blackmagic 4k camera, which is still phantom ware at this stage.   


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"I was born not knowing, and have only had a little time to change that here and there.


#18 CheungyDiver

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Posted 03 October 2013 - 06:08 PM

Agreed. Skin tones on the 5D has always been quite good (not the best but hey its a DSLR!) since the HD DSLR revolution started. 

 

Nothing mysterious to the 4K Blackmagic camera. It was just another big over-hyped product. History is repeating itself. I think mid-of 2014 would be a better estimate to see these cameras out and ready.

 

Maybe Panasonic 4K could give them the heebie jeebies by launching before year end.


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#19 CheungyDiver

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Posted 15 April 2014 - 07:02 PM

Time to take a look on what Kinefinity is up to at NAB 2014. What I find fascinating is that this little Chinese Digital Cinema Camera company has almost been completely ignored by the reporters in NAB except for a few well informed groups. There were huge fanfare on the Black Magic production camera the URSLA and the Studio camera even though no definite ready date. Then there is the CION from AJA. Panasonic, Sony, JVC etc. Oh still no Canon to show off some new camera tech.

 I think this company has great potential and they really need to spend some budget on marketing their products. From what I could gather after NAB 2014 KineMini 4K and KineMax 6K are almost ready. Some sample footage is really nice. These cameras are made simple and no fuss. Just that some of the specs are impressive for the price level.

 

Start with KineMini 4K:

Super 35 CMOS

Records 4K compressed or uncompressed 4:4:4  12bit

Choice of mounts EF or Kinemount (Nikon, PL etc)

High speed 100fps at 1080pHD.

SDI Output/ HDMI x 2

Compact and well built

Price from USD 3200.00

 

 

KineMini4K.jpg

 

 

 

KineMax 6K:

Super 35 CMOS sensor

records 6k in uncompressed or compressed Cinema DNG

100fps in 4k  (wow)

M4/3 crop allows for 4k shooting while 3k is possible from the super 16 crop

SDI Output/ HDMI x 2

Compact and well built

Price from USD 6000.00

 

 

KineMax6K.jpg

KineMax6Kimage.jpg

 

Looking at the pace this company is going and improvement made these are likely to surpass some other similar companies that are more established. China is a huge market for them. I would love to see more footage and maybe some UW footage. I am currently in touch with this company. Maybe it will turn out good. Who knows. What this space.


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#20 CheungyDiver

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Posted 15 April 2014 - 07:09 PM

Here is an interview with Kinefinity guy Jihua Zheng. Courtesy of DigitalNewsshooters

 


Proprietor of Scubacam, Singapore. Commercial videocameraman. Also shoot digital stills. I modify and built stuff. I love technology. Camera: Red Epic/ Scarlet and soon Dragon

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