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Anyone going to try Canon 7D + Magic Lantern with RAW video?


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#1 kc_moses

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Posted 21 October 2013 - 10:46 AM

Just curious, what's the result? The Canon7D with raw video would beat the Panasonic GH3.



#2 Drew

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Posted 21 October 2013 - 01:20 PM

Are you asking or stating? :)

I've been playing with the 5D3 and 7D ML for a while now.  The 7D just suffers quite a bit of moiré and aliasing.  There is a Mosiac filter for the 7D, but that means you are stuck with mirror up and stills only via LiveView, which just sucks!  Of course, with much of the uw world, aliasing and moiré isn't that big an issue, unless you shoot wrecks and such.

 

Comparison with the GH3 is a non-starter.  The GH3 should be within a half stop of the 7D on high ISO noise, but will get kicked on dynamic range and color (8bit 420 H.264 vs 14bit 444 RAW). There are other things to consider, like file sizes etc, but video quality is a not a fair comparison because of the RAW.  Maybe if Panny get a codec like ProRes or something. :)


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#3 Ferg42

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Posted 22 October 2013 - 12:12 AM

There's a comparison here: http://www.eoshd.com...c-pocket-vs-gh3

Not sure how rigorous it was, but may give you an idea.

Like Drew I've also been playing with ML on the Mark III. Just done another trip with it. Will post more results. One thing I've found is it's pretty sensitive to getting the exposure right. Dark areas get noisy pretty quickly if you have to bring them up. You're better off pushing the histogram as far to the right as you can. But overall I'm pretty happy with results. Digital zoom seems to work well too. My 17-40 now has macro capabilities!


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#4 CheungyDiver

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Posted 22 October 2013 - 12:53 AM

Anyone tried the SanDisk Extreme Pro CF 128GB with write speed of 100MBs on the ML 5D MIII ?  Before you say Lexar or the dreaded KomputerBay CF they both did not performed well in the long run for me. In fact KomputerBay card died twice now. I think Lexar uses the same chips. SanDisk Extreme I have heard good for reliability.

 

Hi Fergus do you think crop mode give better resolution and sharpness? 

 

I still scratching my head on this auto ETTR. I ended up just shooting close to right hand side of the histogram. 

 

Can wait to see more UW 5D MIII video shot with ML raw.

 

Cheers

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#5 Ferg42

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Posted 22 October 2013 - 02:39 AM

Hi David,

 

I've not tried the Sandisk. I've heard that some of the probs with Komputerbay may be related to using an incompatible cardreader. My Lexar card reader seemed to corrupt a 64gb card. Since then I've been working with the Kingston USB 3 reader and the Komputerbay 128gb 1050x. No issues so far, but I'll keep you posted. I know what you mean though about the reliability. I'd think twice about using them on a paid gig, or at the very least shoot some backup H264 to the sd card!

As for the crop mode, I'm pretty happy with it so far. Needed a tripod! Resolution and sharpness seem good but haven't done much pixel-peeping. I'll get some samples online soon hopefully.

 

Cheers

 

Fergus


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#6 Davide DB

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Posted 22 October 2013 - 05:05 AM

There's a comparison here: http://www.eoshd.com...c-pocket-vs-gh3

Not sure how rigorous it was, but may give you an idea.

 

 

That test must be taken with a grain of salt of course but I have two buddies who use it.

Taking apart BMPCC that it doesn't need modification and it has raw and prores

 

With ML hack MKIII it's the best but 7D cannot compete with GH3 even with ML loaded and Mosaic Engineering filter (+300$). Noise is there just look at that test. Maybe for uw use you don't care too much for moire and aliasing.

 

IMHO if you already own a 7D and you want to put it out from the grave, go for it. If your are planning to buy one, just get a plain GH3, it's another league.


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#7 kc_moses

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Posted 22 October 2013 - 06:39 AM

The EOSHD site is where I get info about 7D is slightly better then GH3.

 

I'm in the situation where I was going to sell my 7D and get a GH3. The problem is the lens for GH3 are more expensive while I already have a good set of lens for my 7D to cover my land need. So if the 7D can be revived and proof to be useful, I can stretch it a bit longer until something with 4K come out say in two years or so.

 

Yes the 7D could have noise issue under low light, that's why I'm asking for opinion and perhaps footage to see the real world UW result. The BlackMagic Pocket is a video camera, doesn't take photo.

 

I know I'm probably asking for too much, I like to get something that cover both land and underwater. Right now I'm carrying a Panasonic LX-7 into the water while bringing the 7D for land use (or a Sony HX200v if I really have limited carry on space).



#8 Davide DB

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Posted 22 October 2013 - 07:19 AM

If you already have a 7D and a bag of lenses just stick with it and revive it with ML.  :)

What prevent you from using your 7D underwater? Don't you have a housing?


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#9 kc_moses

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Posted 22 October 2013 - 07:37 AM

I don't have a housing for the 7D, and I have been checking out the classified area. But primarily it's the budget that prevent me from making the move to get the 7D wet.



#10 Davide DB

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Posted 22 October 2013 - 08:13 AM

I think a used housing for a 7D is easier to find than a GH3. And you already saving on lenses...

 

In the meantime just give a try with ML hacks. Raw workflow is not like throwing your clips onto timeline....You need extra time and maybe extra $$$.

 

Most of the time topics here assume infinite money and time...


Edited by Davide DB, 22 October 2013 - 08:18 AM.

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#11 Drew

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Posted 22 October 2013 - 07:16 PM

KC, how often do you shoot above ISO1250 underwater?  The 7D does a good enough job and the noise is within the realm of the GH3 by 1/2 stop up to 6400ISO.  The problem with shooting RAW on a DSLR is that it's always going to be noisier than processed H.264.  The sensor is designed for stills first.

I think you should base your decision on the workflow. RAW is great to have but requires extra things like bigger drives for storage on extended trips.  I now carry a minimum of 4 2TB USB3 drives even on short trips because of RAW.  As Davide suggested, try the 7D with ML on a dry shoot and see if you dealing with the RAW workflow.

 

or at the very least shoot some backup H264 to the sd card!

 

Wait, you can do that?  I thought you can't do both at the same time  I can't find the setting for that. I'll have a look at the codes.


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#12 CheungyDiver

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Posted 22 October 2013 - 07:58 PM

(I don't have a housing for the 7D, and I have been checking out the classified area. But primarily it's the budget that prevent me from making the move to get the 7D wet.)

 

What is your budget then? I got a friend's 7D housing (nauticam) and he upgraded to 5D MIII (nauticam) and might sell at really good deal. Housing used in two trips.

 

cheers

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#13 Ferg42

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Posted 23 October 2013 - 01:42 AM

KC, how often do you shoot above ISO1250 underwater?  The 7D does a good enough job and the noise is within the realm of the GH3 by 1/2 stop up to 6400ISO.  The problem with shooting RAW on a DSLR is that it's always going to be noisier than processed H.264.  The sensor is designed for stills first.

I think you should base your decision on the workflow. RAW is great to have but requires extra things like bigger drives for storage on extended trips.  I now carry a minimum of 4 2TB USB3 drives even on short trips because of RAW.  As Davide suggested, try the 7D with ML on a dry shoot and see if you dealing with the RAW workflow.

 

 

Wait, you can do that?  I thought you can't do both at the same time  I can't find the setting for that. I'll have a look at the codes.

No, I don't think you can do it at the same time, I just meant shoot again separately (not really possible a lot of the time, I know!)


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#14 Drew

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Posted 23 October 2013 - 02:26 AM

No, I don't think you can do it at the same time, I just meant shoot again separately (not really possible a lot of the time, I know!)

Whew,I thought I missed such a great feature. :)  Maybe with the 5D8 or something with a bigger processor! LOL


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#15 kc_moses

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Posted 23 October 2013 - 07:36 AM

As for 7D housing budget, it was around $3K. But then I found out all the stuffs that goes with it, like zoom gear, dome, $1K here and $1K there, it's a hard pill to swallow. The housing for GH3 is about $1K cheaper than the 7D housing, hence it's more attractive assume that I can sell my 7D complete package (3 lens, book, extra batter, charger, remote shutter, filter etc) for about $1300.

 

I will give ML a try on land and see if I can deal with its workflow, I'm still learning Sony Vegas, and have not much clue about Davinci. If you check EOSHD daily, you probably see the rumor about GH4 with 4K. It may be worth to wait. 

 

At the mean time, I'm going to attend this workshop:

http://reefphoto.com...nts&event_id=73

 

Just found it yesterday so I think it's a good place to start if I want to understand SLR videography. I need to get some of the technique down even with point and shoot such as composition, best way to approach critter without shaking much, perfectly still macro footage.



#16 Drew

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Posted 23 October 2013 - 09:32 AM

RAW workflow is time consuming and system demanding.  CDNG or even the .raw files require powerful systems to do realtime playback, not to mention post cc etc.  Proxy codecs work but require more time.  If you add it all up, RAW isn't great for someone on a tight budget, yet it is a wonderful thing for someone on a tight budget as well! :)

Also remember the RAW files are huge so you'll need a minimum of 64GB to just get about 12 mins of recording time, so realistically you'll need 128GB cards.  As you can ascertain from previous posts, getting the right card is important.  The minimum sustained write speed on the Lexar 1000x is about 70+MB/s which fits right into the wheelhouse of the 7D ML RAW data rate.  The Sandisk Extreme Pro 128GB guarantees a sustained minimum of 65MB/s.

I'm not going to get into the Komputerbay issue since they use non-spec NAND chips.

So factor in CF cards, drives and batteries (ML sucks batteries much more) as well.  Are the color and picture resolution increase and flexibility, the wider range of lenses like the 10-17 or 8-15 fisheye, worth all that? :)


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#17 kc_moses

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Posted 23 October 2013 - 10:21 AM

Those are the good point Drew, hence my initial question to ask if anybody tried, and if it's practical. We know there is no battery grip in the underwater world. And if it's realistic to swap SD card after every dives. And yet if all those are doable, how much gain do you get out of shooting raw?

 

May be RAW at this point is only for land unless there is a SSD based camera out. Just a thought.



#18 Drew

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Posted 23 October 2013 - 01:45 PM

I'll just say that given the choice, I'll use RAW every time.  RAW clips survive post much better, with higher resolution and color depth.  Not to mention that MWB is history.  Sure the Canon sensor is a bit noisier without the DIGIC H.264 processing, but one can expose almost a stop over and still pull back some highlights.  So one just has to essentially worry about exposure and composition, without have to deal with MWB etc.  
It's definitely not for everyone, especially  holiday makers looking for a simple P&S solution.


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#19 CheungyDiver

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Posted 23 October 2013 - 03:45 PM

I agree with Drew once you shoot Canon ML raw there is no going back. It is simply miles better for post and even extract jpegs out of the reel. In my case I already have the 5D MIII. Going the ML raw is a no brainer. I would not be too hopeful with 4K in compressed H265 coming out anytime soon in M4/3 or mirrorless. Rumour are just that rumour and judging from the past typically take a year or more to become real. What else is around the corner? H265 and better storage media. First iteration for H265 codex and 4K or Ultra HD will be in Videocam which is dedicated for pro-sumer video. 

 

Just for fun I am also looking at my canon EOS M and using the ML to shoot raw. I like the small and pocketable size as well as the price. I got the Eos M and 22 pancake for USD 300. It seems Canon is throwing away these cameras. I know the EOS M is not the fastest for AF but it does have a APS-c sensor and short lens flange to sensor with the EOS M mount. I managed to slap on quite a few old lens on this thing using adapters and the results has been pretty good. Slap on the EF adapter and almost all my Canon lens could be used. The 22mm STM has a continuous AF in video mode which comes in handy for moving subjects. Couple with ML and some post processing freeware the results is not bad. Not exactly like 5D MIII raw but surprising okay for the internet. UW Housing is small too.

 

Sorry for high jacking this thread. Back to the 7D. As it stands this old work horse has a few more years yet thanks to ML firmware and who knows what else the hackers could do in a few months. If you have the 7D just pop over to ML and read up on all the fun things they are doing.

 

 

Cheers

David


Edited by CheungyDiver, 23 October 2013 - 04:15 PM.

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#20 kc_moses

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Posted 24 October 2013 - 07:06 AM

I had a "piffany" last night while tossing and turning in bed. I think my best option for now is just to aggressively sell my 7D while it still has value (checked ebay and the resell value went up about $200 since a couple weeks ago). The way I see it is, with the money from selling the 7D, I could get a GH3/4 down the road, or see what the 7D replacement would be, or something along the line of Sony RX10.

 

The big decision factor is also because RAW is not that consumer friendly in term of post processing. I think a 4K H.265 is less demand than 1080p RAW, right?