15 replies to this topic

[echeng]

TO READERS:

We figured it couldn't hurt to allow the posting of commercial trip listings, as long as they were all quarantined to a specific area of our forums. If you follow through on a listing here and end up booking, please support Wetpixel by letting both Eric and the trip organizers know that you read about their trip here at Wetpixel!

You can contact Eric via e-mail at his first name at wetpixel.com.

TO ADVERTISERS:

Please post your commercial trip listings here, and NOWHERE ELSE in the forums. For non-commercial travel, please use the Dive Destinations forum category (e.g. you are going somewhere and want to see if anyone else wants to go).

Some friends of ours have given us referral fees for referred bookings. You are free to do so out of goodwill; it will be much appreciated, and will go into back into improving Wetpixel.

A trip is defined as commercial (on Wetpixel) if:

You or a friend has organized the trip and are making money from bookings or are receiving discounts on your own travel.

OR

You work for, or are related to someone who is affiliated with the boat, venue, or organizing entity.

(Update) However, you may post on the non-commercial Dive Destinations forum if you are *not* organizing a trip but get referral fees for referring friends. We reserve the right to move those specific listings to this forum if we feel the tone is overly commercial. You must also declare that you are getting the fees in the ad.

I'm sure I'm leaving something out. But if you are unsure, post here instead of somewhere else on Wetpixel.

--
Note: We will post Wetpixel-related and Wetpixel sponsor-related trips in the official "Trips" section of Wetpixel.com. Please contact us privately if you have something to list.

Please also update your posts by using reply versus posting a new topic for updates. As a courtesy to our readers, please update the post if the trip is full.

[JackConnick]

A trip is defined as commercial if:

You or a friend has organized the trip and are making money from  bookings or are receiving discounts on your own travel.

Eric, Getting a spiff from the boat or operator is not commercial, it is simply an incentive and thank you for organizing and spending a considerable amount of time and trouble coordinating your friends. IE; it doesn't cost your friends anything, there is no profit.

I think you should think about restating this.

Jack

[james]

Hmm...I've thought about this a lot too Jack.

I definitely see that situation as commercial - because you get something (a free trip) for your work recruiting people for a trip. Getting something for your work is pretty much by definition what I'd call commercial.

Think of the example where "Joe Smith" is organizing a trip and if he gets 10 people, he gets to go for free. What I don't like to see is Joe Smith posting messages ALL OVER the place trying to get people to go on the trip with him.

I'm sure you've seen this happen before (say on Rodales) and usually when "Joe" tries to do it, he catches a lot of flack about it - wasting everybody's time and bandwidth.

But I don't mind if "Joe" posts those message in this specific forum, because if I don't want to read them, I don't have to visit this forum.

That's my 2 cents worth at least and not necessarily the Wetpixel Policy.

Cheers
James

[echeng]

I agree with James. I just want to deter people from coming here *just* to post their trip solicitations, without participating in the community some other way.

But I get your point, Jack.

I'm ok with trips where you get some sort of referral fee for signing up more people, but I think the policy will stand about people who charter or organize trips and go for free: keep those messages on this forum.

[yahsemtough]

I have to agree with Jack and disagree with you James for what it is worth.

In Canada the definition of a business is that there is a reasonable expectation of profit.

Those that have ever tried to get a group together to fill the 10 spots will say they are spending more in their time than they would get paid for on a hourly basis.

They are also assuming the risk of a deposit that the trip will not fill and they will end up paying full fair anyway which happens often. Thus, more expense than profit. By this definition I don't feel this is commercial.

You will also note that contests put a 40% limit on income from commercial ventures in order to disqualify a professional from competing. That said then I am sure no one trying to fill 10 spots with friends here, or locally is making 40 percent of their income from it.

Points to reconsider

[JackConnick]

I guess my point is that your aren't really getting anything for free. What you are doing is _trading_ a whole lot of work, hassle and expense for a spiff from the operator. Your deposits are at risk, not somebody elses. Anyone who has run a trip will attest that you spend enormous amounts of time coordinating before the trip, and during it. There is no profit.

Since it's tax time I would remind you that the IRS sees a "business" as one that makes a profit, otherwise it's a hobby.

Whatever, it's your board, but I think a group organizer is very different than a dive shop or agent running a trip.

Jack

[echeng]

Hi, guys. I'm not trying to define what a business is. I'm defining what this forum is for, and what "commercial" means on Wetpixel.

Believe me: I know that there is a lot of work and hassle that goes into organizing a trip. However, using the NON-COMMERCIAL areas of Wetpixel are not for getting people to go on your trip. Have to draw the line somewhere.

Let's put it this way: before, we didn't want you to even post even organized trips. Now, you can. Win, win.

By the way, I don't expect everyone to be happy with the new features and changes I add to Wetpixel.

OK, sometimes I do naively expect everyone to be happy, but I am learning to be more realistic -- and while I will always consider constructive feedback, I can't make everyone happy.

Regards,
Eric

[underwatercolours]

I'll chime in to say THANK YOU to Eric for this venue. I think its a great idea because I would not have been comfortable posting some of these trips in any other forum.

[echeng]

Another option for posting trips on Wetpixel is to use the Adbrite text ads on the front page. Go to the front page and look on the right-hand side for the "ENDORSEMENTS" section. Click on the "Buy this ad" link.

[Kelpfish]

James, my name is Joe, but I'm glad it's not "Joe Smith"

Joe

[james]

OK, darn. Maybe I'll have to go back and change all the "Joe"s to something different and unique. How about Jawarhalal?

Cheers
James

[Giles]

that would make for a awesome middle name ..

[Kelpfish]

As for the commercial thing, it is Eric's and his teams site so somebody needs to make the rules. Everyone has valid points, so it is simply the boss's decision, and we all know that we don't always like what the boss says, but we grin and bear it. I also think that there is enough opportunity in places on Wetpixel that allow for one to post a trip. Personally, if one chooses to use my site for nothing more than advertising, where his/her (see how politically correct I was ) contributions are nothing more than come on my dives, that is not what Wetpixel is intended for. Now someone like a "stingray" may be able to slip one in now and then because they are solid contributors to the site. But Eric has to stay the law, and even for vets on the site, he may choose to have black and white rules....either he will or won't allow it. Bottom line is that it is not for us members to get riled up for a free site like Wetpixel. Now if you want to pay $100 a year to Wetpixel counsel you may be allowed to place an add or two per year. I am sure they can use the doe to help pay for this stuff.

Joe

[Steve Douglas]

I really have to agree with Jack's comments. I also agree that this is Eric's site and he can determine the rules he wants followed.
Back to Jack's comments. I have been leading trips for a number of years as part of www.worldfilmsandtravel.com I and my partner and friend put in more hours, work, hassles and risk than anyone who has not lead trips can imagine. Yes, we get a free spot and commissions which do nothing more than allow us to place that commission down on another charter's deposit. If you added up the commission and free spots and compared them to the number of hours it takes to do all the coordinating, it might come to pennies per hour. Me, I'm afraid to try to figure it. I have yet to put a single dime in my pocket and neither has my partner. Anyone taking the responsibility to put a trip together is also taking an enormous fiscal risk. I just wish people would understand that no one is getting rich from this. We make sure to go to the destination and check everything out first, before ever bringing people there. We pay for that ourselves. That is, unless I am incredibly naive and it is just me not getting rich. All I can say is I work my butt off to make sure divers are happy and content. Most appreciate it and do not begrudge me my free spot.
Steve B)
ps. Eric, would gladly pay you a referral fee for guests that join us on our sojourns, tell them to say you sent them.

[neil252]

I understand the concept of a community where members are contributing. However it is important for a community to grow and receive new and different input as can be the case with someone coming to the site initially to post a commercial opportunity but contributing beyond that. I am an example of someone registering to promote a diving film crew opportunity which is very unique. There will be costs incurred for those joining the crew but they will be in the credits of a future production that will be shown on networks around the world. It is difficult to find the appropriate platform to advertise such a specialised opportunity.
Please contact me if you want any more details of the opportunity that is available in November.
Regards
Neil

[Steve Douglas]

If you hire a crew, then the word 'hire' implies payment, work and taxes. I assume such a large scale project will produce a profit or, at least, the potential for one. Why would a crew have to pay to work? You do get what you pay for. I, and many others on here, have worked many, many years to gain the knowledge, gear and experience to move upwards in a competitive market. Just having a name in a credit is appealing primarily to those hobbyists just getting started with stars in their eyes. I am always interested in new projects but can't imagine paying to be part of it.
Steve