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Blackmagic 4k Production Camera resurfaces from Limbo


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#1 Drew

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Posted 19 December 2013 - 08:33 AM

The Blackmagic 4k Production Camera, lost during the missed delivery dates, has resurfaced with some test sample clips in ProRes:

 

 

Of course it's much better to download the original files here.

 

I think the post resampling has caused quite a bit of ghosting.  It's actually pretty terrible ghosting!  Hope it's better than that in RAW.


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#2 EspenRekdal

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Posted 19 December 2013 - 01:54 PM

I think the post resampling has caused quite a bit of ghosting.  It's actually pretty terrible ghosting!  Hope it's better than that in RAW.

 

Could that ghosting be a result of shutter angle. Perry said he had been using multiple shutter angles for these clips.

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#3 thani

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Posted 20 December 2013 - 11:26 PM

Hi guys,

Captinhook made this camera sing as stated in the vimeo comment. Really nice footage, I believe. :)
Here is the clip

 

And here is the discussion thread http://www.bmcuser.c...footage-from-me

What do you think?


Edited by thani, 21 December 2013 - 05:58 AM.

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#4 Drew

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Posted 22 December 2013 - 11:01 AM

Low light noise looks good after post, especially with the sky lantern scene.  Difficult to tell with 720p vimeo.  Like most 4k, it looks a lot better downsized to 720p! :) We'll see how when BM starts delivery.


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#5 CheungyDiver

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Posted 22 December 2013 - 04:51 PM

There is already a UW housing waiting for this latest Black Magic offering. Philip Bloom also had a go with the 4k footage colour correction. Not entirely convinced what this camera could really do. At the moment I am really enjoying the BMPCC and my new housing. Had to do some DIY with a battery pack. Now I think a full sixty min. Dive is possible with the camera on the whole time. The housing is nice and small. Footage from this little pocket rocket is really nice. I can't wait for the meta bone lens booster. Off to Palau in the next day. This new BM 4 K might take a while from their past record on delivery. I think it's the first in the industry I could get a housing before I could even get the camera..LOL

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#6 thani

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Posted 22 December 2013 - 08:20 PM

Low light noise looks good after post, especially with the sky lantern scene.  Difficult to tell with 720p vimeo.  Like most 4k, it looks a lot better downsized to 720p! :) We'll see how when BM starts delivery.

This is what captinhook said in reply to the thread I mentioned above which touches on the low light performance:

Yesterday 05:22 AM
Thanks to all the comments so far, appreciate the kind words and also totally understand other comments/preferences about the other cameras. One of my first comments when i got the camera was the highlight rolloff, but then on this video i didn't try to maintain any roll off into the highlights in the grade and pushed it like i did Grants video (i did this one prior) - so go figure! I do think it's possible to get more DR out of the camera than i did with my grade here, and i think people will see/experience that in time. I may attempt to try that in the near future, but being so close to xmas it may take a while. Besides, i think others can show it and even better. Also, remember Grant said there are other testers (and we all know John is one) so who knows what's down the pipeline. But it's a real joy to see this even in 1080p playing in Resolve.

Global shutter in handheld made me feel like i was a better operator when viewing back the footage! It made 'shaky' stuff much more tolerable to me. And gain, i love the motion.

I really want to put all 3 cameras side by side and shoot the same thing too - i have done that but it was of a boring chart with my GF standing in and i was actually testing the Hoya ND's. But i'm curious myself. Just a time thing.

Originally Posted by Roman
Dude... you likely just sold this camera to countless people.

Amazing. Seriously, just amazing.

I wanted to be on the fence about this camera, but this is impossible to ignore.
Haha, thanks. I was similar, except i just really expected to be blasé about it compared to the bmcc/pocket. But it won my heart fast. Shooting on the music video set with the image on the DP7 was a great experience - anyone that was watching the monitor commented how great it looked.

Originally Posted by jambredz
Insane detail ...and thats on vimeo! Can you make it downloadable...even this HD version. Great work.
I thought about making it downloadable, but even my upload was 25Mbps H264 and that compared to the 1080p 422HQ render actually made me pause and wonder if i should upload this at all ! Seriously, i've always been "okay" with the H264 conversions from the BMCC/Pocket but this time the detail/resolution got HAMMERED which is why i added a bit of sharpening to try counteract it. The UHD file coming soon should "tell all". The night stuff at the end was my first time shooting at night and i did it all at 800ASA as an experiment - it was also a couple of stops under for some of it so there's a bit of noise there that the H264 smoothed out a little. But i would judge the night stuff in the middle of the clip with the car in the street etc instead, as that was at 400ASA F2 with no additional lighting - admittedly that street gave me an ambient reading only a stop or so under that, and i think at 400 and one stop under i'm much happier with the noise than i am doing the same on the other two cams. But i still need to experiment further with exposure etc. It took a long time for some of us to get a good handle on how we like to work with the BMCC/Pocket, hopefully this one is quicker!

Originally Posted by Adam Roberts
Very tasty footage.

So now you've played with BMPCC, BMCC and BMPC4K and graded all 3...

What are your thoughts one them as a set and how do they differ? How well do you thing that would work together A cam, B cam, Crash cam?
Hopefully some of the above covered some of it. The only other thing to add would be at the moment you have to work a little harder to get detail in the low-mids -> shadows, something John pointed out early on (he has a great eye for this stuff).

Originally Posted by Andrew
A few thoughts/questions:

1. BMD should build your LUT into the camera for times when you need to turn the footage over already looking great. Seriously. There should be Log, Video, and Hook options in the menu. I'm sure you did more than just a LUT for this footage, but it would be a great option.
Hey, no one would be happier about that than me. John posted a long time ago that he didn't think the hardware in the BMCC could handle something like that, which is why i went with the DP7 for the upcoming LUT support. I'm not sure if the 4K has 'beefier' hardware that could support it, but then it's also got to process and push around a LOT more data as it is so ... Ultimately, i have no idea if it's possible with the 4K but i don't think it's possible on the BMCC.

Originally Posted by Andrew
2. Do you think we'll be able to expect a bit more DR when shooting raw, similar to the difference between the raw and ProRes of 2.5k camera?
I would be guessing - but i think you can get more DR out of the Prores as is, i just wasn't aiming for that this time. It was just too tempting to have fun and push it. Annoying for others i know (i would be too!)

Originally Posted by Andrew
3. Do you think it will be awhile before raw is ready? Can your beta camera shoot raw now?
Guess work again. I would have used it if it was there.

Originally Posted by fahnon
Question: how did you find the sensitivity at night compared to the bmcc you've been using all this time?
I'd rather do a side-by-side, but considering ASA800 "on" is the lowest i like to expose the BMCC/Pocket, and i'm happy doing ASA400 and under a stop on the 4K - it seems to me for my preferences i could use both in the same conditions (if i would use any at all). That kind of opinion will vary a lot though i imagine.

Originally Posted by Eric Hasso
Would you use it to shoot just 1080p HD?
I haven't shot anywhere near as much in 1080p in camera yet but from what i have seen, i was definitely impressed. You'll still feel the resolution increase over the 2.4K/Pocket for sure, and i would say the in camera scaling and debayering is pretty damn good for realtime.


I think it's the first in the industry I could get a housing before I could even get the camera..LOL

LOL totally agreed. That is indeed a first david :)

Edited by thani, 22 December 2013 - 08:25 PM.

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Thani

#7 Drew

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Posted 23 December 2013 - 02:00 AM

Opps sorry I linked the wrong file in the 1st post.  Here are the original files from the BMPC4k shot by Grant Petty.  It's 8.7GB so don't try this on dialup! :)

http://video.blackma...ra_4K_Shots.zip


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#8 thani

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Posted 23 December 2013 - 09:01 PM

Original thread http://www.bmcuser.c...nt-Petty/page26

As I have already said elsewhere.

I've really changed my mind about the 4K.

I was a bit skeptical after the initial work I did with the *very very early* sensor evaluation but I have to take my hat to BMD. They have done an AMAZING job in the current hardware / firmware build that all this public footage is coming off.

Like leaps and bounds better. I've totally been won over actually. I've fallen for the pictures from this camera, and I never thought I would.

I think the camera has really developed into something that has a great personality all of it's own. I really like the less flat "film" profile that they've ended up with as well. It means you don't have to drive it as hard to get to a nice looking grade. I've been feeling that shooting at 800, it's top ISO setting) in daylight has been working well, and helps to give more separation in the near blacks...

BMD have been throwing everything at getting this camera looking great, and I think it shows.

For me, I can get a grade that looks pretty sweet with a lot less work than the film prores files out of the 2.5K picture. And I really really like the cadence. The global shutter is really something special on motion, and especially hand held. Handholding with a shortish prime is really lovely.

I do feel the lessor DR. I've been shooting it a lot alongside Alexa on the current show I'm on now.....and there is a much more obvious difference in DR, something I tend to barely notice with the 2.5K.

That's probably the only thing from my original dislikes that still more or less stands.

The 4K is really something special. It's got it's own great look, it's a near s35 sensor size and global shutter. 4K I can take or leave. I've shot a lot at 1920 in camera and it's honestly so good.....

As long as you can forgive the DR. If you're coming from already owning a 2.5K or pocket, you'll notice it. If you're stepping up from another lessor camera, you probably won't feel it.

jb


Edited by thani, 23 December 2013 - 09:02 PM.

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#9 thani

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Posted 23 December 2013 - 10:08 PM

My early thoughts on BMPC 4K from what I've read so far
The pluses:
+ Near super 35 sensor with approximate crop factor of 1.5 (wide angle shots are more possible),
+ Global Shutter which should produce better "motion" capture for the swimming creatures :),
+ Sharper image compare to the very filmy BMCC 2.5k which is a plus for underwater,
+ Better color science/rendition directly from camera and that means better productivity for color grading,
+ 4k is good to have now whether for compositions, downscaling for better quality full HD and for future proofing your captured great moments,
+ Wide selection of prime or zoom EF mount lenses,
+ Good value for money $4k for 4k resolution and
+ Availability of underwater housing form a good company namely Nauticam

The negative:
- low light performance. But this relative to good performing cameras such as the Canon 5D mark III and BMCC. It must be better than my EX1. Remember this is a trade off for the global shutter. Fast lenses such as the latest Sigma 1.8 could help compensate for that :)
- less dynamic range, again this is relative as explained in the previous point. Do we need extra dynamic range than the acclaimed ~ 11 points for the 4k for underwater video. IMHO, I don't think so.


Again, those are some early thoughts that are battling in my mind may be to justify embarking on a journey with BMPC 4k. But let's see if more footage will justify such endeavor.

More thoughts from the community are welcomed :)
Best Regards,
Thani

#10 Drew

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Posted 10 February 2014 - 10:44 AM

It's shipping now with a lower price!

http://goo.gl/a2Zvgb


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#11 CheungyDiver

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Posted 10 February 2014 - 06:42 PM

Full Resolve software....plus 4k camera @ USD 3000.00 Interesting pricing. Something new must be coming at NAB.

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#12 thani

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Posted 11 February 2014 - 05:56 PM

Full Resolve software....plus 4k camera @ USD 3000.00
Interesting pricing. Something new must be coming at NAB.

Yes there will always be technological advancement and may be a new form factor :) but this offer is amazing ;)

Check these videos. The motion captured by by Global Shutter is really nice.

 

 

 


Edited by thani, 11 February 2014 - 06:29 PM.

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#13 Drew

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Posted 11 February 2014 - 08:23 PM

There may (will) be a few camera announcements at NAB. :)


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#14 Pete L

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Posted 22 February 2014 - 01:37 AM

Now that the cameras are being released, who is seriously looking at this setup?

Nauticam state they have both zoom & focus control for the canon 10-22mm lens so that could be a good setup for wide angle on the 1.5 crop sensor.

I wonder how well it can handle the colour underwater & how easy it is to white balance.

I think I read it has focus peaking too which would be beneficial.

There is some nice topside footage around now.

Cheers Pete.


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#15 carlescas

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Posted 22 February 2014 - 05:12 AM

Hi all,

About the BMCC or the BM 4K the problem underwater has to be the same: the white balance. You have to fix a manual white balance ( 3200, 4500, 5000, 5600, 6500 or 7500ºK) and it is impossible to fix another valor here, for this reason is very difficult to have a perfect underwater white balance. 
If you want to film in RAW is not a problem, but if you want don´t want to film in RAW you will obtain images with  blue or red dominant.
What do you think about it? 
How is possible to obtain a perfect white balance underwater in PRORES?


#16 thetrickster

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Posted 22 February 2014 - 06:00 AM

How is possible to obtain a perfect white balance underwater in PRORES?

 

If you are limited to those Kelvin ratings the only option I would think, would be to use some lights with a matching Temp. But then your limited to range of the lights.


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#17 carlescas

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Posted 22 February 2014 - 06:28 AM

Yes, and the Temp of the water is maybe more than 15000ºK and you will fix the camera at 7500ºK, this means that the blue will be an artificial blue and not a really blue. Other solution is to put a red filter in the camera and fix the Temp to the lights, but I think never will have a perfect white balance with the blue.
I am thinking in buy a new underwater video equipment and I am studying the BMCC 4K, but before I have to resolve this problem of the WB underwater, becuase shooting in RAW means that I will need A LOT OF space in discs.


#18 thetrickster

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Posted 22 February 2014 - 06:34 AM

I'm all set for the GH4 too be honest (fingers crossed it will slot in my GH3 housing!)

 

Lacks RAW granted and the DR range. But appears to be a better all rounded camera.


Regards, Richard

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#19 Pete L

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Posted 22 February 2014 - 12:35 PM

Interesting that you can't set a manual white balance. Raw all the way then I suppose.


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#20 EspenRekdal

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Posted 23 February 2014 - 01:12 PM

Its a production camera and not really made for run and gun shooting. If I was to go that route I would simply download a days work into resolve adjust WB, exposure and tint and then output to prores. Then delete the raw. Minor tweeks hold up well with prores for the final grading. 

 

For me the most difficult thing would be to select what glass to use with an EF mount no less. Kind of wish it was a e-mount with a 12mm Zeiss for WA.

Anyone know what the red guys use for the epics?

 

E.


Nikon D4, D3s, D2x, etc etc.. Nauticam housing, Inon z240s, Subtronic Mega Cs and housed Nikon Sb900s...