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ETTL again....


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#1 satura

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Posted 20 October 2004 - 10:41 AM

Some questions to the experts:

Ikelite says an upgrade is required for optimal performance when taking pictures less then 5 sec. apart. This $50 upgrade disables the audiable ready signal of the DS125. I'm no engineer, but what does the audiable ready signal has to do with taking pictures less than 5 seconds apart???

Why is the conversion circuity not available for the 10D/G2/G3/G5 but only for 300D and 20D (in Dez.)? It does not fit mechanically into the housing, right? Would it fit if all the buttons were not required (10D has FEC "on board")

"more accurate eTTL pre-flash" (see: http://www.ikelite.c.../2canonTTL.html ) means the special "strobo preflash" I assume. Is high speed-sync supported which works with strobo flashes (see: http://www.chem.hels...ge/hispeed.html ), as well?

Are there any more 10D-ETTL options as:
-Ikelite (no 10D support?)
-Aquatica (no 10D housing?)
-Subtronic EOS 300D (Works with 10D?)
-Matthias' Converter units (Tests anywere?)
-housed land flash gun (urgs...)
-Sea&Sea YS55 ETTL (2*AA Power flash...)

Thanks in advance...

#2 Jolly

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Posted 20 October 2004 - 12:10 PM

Hi Satura,

I think you should distinguish between two different things:

- real E-TTL strobe
- converter, allowing usage of some Nikonos TTL protocol strobes with certain (limited) E-TTL cameras

You might have read my post concerning the differences:
http://www.wetpixel....-start-30.phtml

Sea&Sea YS-55 is the only amphibic E-TTL strobe (unfortunately itís a joke, just look at it) until now. So it should work with every E-TTL camera. The Canon E-TTL protocol is fully implemented, like E-TTL landguns.

Ikelite doesnít have the original Canon E-TTL protocol. So they have to hack the protocol for every E-TTL camera. Even 10D and 300D have a different behaviour in terms of flash/camera-communication. It took Ikelite a pretty long time to hack the 300D protocol until they could make the shipping announcement now.
Therefore I think mechanical / housing items are not the reason why the converter is not featured for all of their housings.

The Mini 300D is the ďnormalĒ Mini TTL with already built in 300D converter from Matthias Heinrichs featuring S6 bulkhead, etc. . Same limitation for the time being: only 300D. So itís not a full E-TTL strobe.
But Matthias Heinrichs is about to finish the adaptation for the 10D:
http://www.digitaldi...y;threadid=9149

So you might expect a Subtronic Mini 300D/10D.
And yes, you can use two Minis having both working E-TTL.

I donít know if Ikelite has announced 10D support. Just read about 300D and future 20D support.
Donít know if you can use two DS-125 strobes then?

Sea&Sea ys-55 looks like an entry into amphibic E-TTL. Maybe they will publish a more powerfull and useable E-TTL version somewhere in the future. But I would not wait for it. If you really want E-TTL now, these are the options:

- your housing choice with Subtronic Mini: 300D (now), 10D (coming)

- your housing choice and your strobe choice (Sea&Sea, Mini TTL, Inon Z220 with focus and target light support, Ikelite DS-125,Ö): Heinrichs converter with 300D (now) or 10D (coming)

- Ikelite housing, Ikelite strobes (DS-50/DS-125): 300D and announced camera support for the future (20D, Ö.)

My next trip comes closer and I've finally ordered my 10D housing with Nikonos 5 pin bulkheads. Using Inon Z220 manually and adding the Heinrichs E-TTL converter as it becomes available for the 10D. That might be even before I leave for shooting.

A friend of mine just returned from a trip with 300D, Heinrichs converter and Inon Z220. So far he was very satisfied with the TTL flash exposure.. And yes, BreezeBrowser displayed the EXIF line "flash: external E-TTL" :-)

Julian
| Canon 5D I+II / Sealux CC5-GD I+II custom converted | 2x Ikelite DS-125 | ULCS |

#3 Jolly

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Posted 20 October 2004 - 12:19 PM

Hi speed sync requires several mainflashes as the curtain always covers the image chip partly. So several flashes are used in sequence to expose the whole chip.
So hi speed sync is not possible.

Julian
| Canon 5D I+II / Sealux CC5-GD I+II custom converted | 2x Ikelite DS-125 | ULCS |

#4 satura

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Posted 20 October 2004 - 01:03 PM

Thanks for the explanations. Personally, I have a 300D and a DS125 so the Ikelite upgrade would be the "right" way. But I would prefer a metal housing... like the A300 (Yes, the ETTL units does not work yet but the mechanical part seems to be robust and the price is ok) or UK Germany...

I would like to spend the amount of money in the right setup :) What kind of housing did you order for your 10D?

And, can you post some sample shots from the 300D? Maybe in the "free-for-all" forum here on Wetpixel.com?

#5 ikelite

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Posted 20 October 2004 - 09:15 PM

Satura questions: Strobes send audible ready and confidence signals to the camera for four seconds after taking a photo as per old Nikonos protocol. This interferes with required communication for new eTTL digital cameras, especially in rapid sequence photos.

Canon eTTL conversion circuitry for 300D and 10D does not work with the G6 or the new 20D with eTTL2. We did not "hack" Canon protocol, but deciphered it so our conversion circuitry data signals are exactly the same.

A real eTTL strobe would be limited to a particular camera, require six-pin connector system, and isnít going to work with Nikon or Olympus cameras. Seems very limiting with each subsequent camera featuring a changed TTL system. Placing required conversion circuitry into each specific camera housing allows one standard strobe protocol to be utilized.

In answer to Jolly: Dual strobes can be utilized. We will start assembling eTTL 10D housings when we get caught up with Rebel housings. We only have so many fingers hammering stuff together in this insignificant little operation.............

#6 satura

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Posted 20 October 2004 - 10:42 PM

Thanks Ike,

-Ikelite will support 10D
-dual strobes will work
-more non-ettl2 cameras (like G2/G5) will be supported (?)

#7 Jolly

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Posted 21 October 2004 - 02:50 AM

Satura,

yeah, I will ask him if he can post some sample shots. Or if I may do for him.

Ike,

an E-TTL strobe is not limited to one particular camera. It's limited to all E-TTL cameras (which might be enough for some). I agree that it is nice if a strobe still provides Nikon Film TTL protocol (which is not used anymore by some) and a manufacture promises strobe/converter adaptations to new camera generations.
So far perfect for Ikelite housing owners. But there is still "the rest".

Maybe it's an advantage to some if a strobe will cover the whole camera upgrading line within E-TTL I/II cameras (maybe some are more addicted to Canon cameras than Ikelite housings). No waiting and hoping if it will be supported. Not to mention a free housing choice (I guess it's not your favorite argument :) ). And who can tell if Sea&Sea will ship an upgrade for E-TTL IV or something (as they might just order the licensed protocol chip from Canon) in the future or if Ikelite will hack it before.
I think these vague arguments do not make someone sell an already owned non-Ikelite housing. Just my opinion. On the other side Ikelite housing owners won't see a reason to buy something different.

"deciphered" or "hacked" - it is the reason why the conversion supports only the camera(s) the deciphereing was done for. That was Satura's question.

It depends on personal needs and choices which system is preffered.

Julian
| Canon 5D I+II / Sealux CC5-GD I+II custom converted | 2x Ikelite DS-125 | ULCS |

#8 ikelite

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Posted 21 October 2004 - 10:14 AM

Jolly: What happens to the customer who bought eTTL strobe for his Canon Digital Rebel when he buys a Canon 20D camera? Who, except Canon, knew it wouldn't work? Your logic fails me.

#9 Jolly

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Posted 21 October 2004 - 10:24 AM

Ike, as Matthias Heinrichs has stated a few times it is/was clear that the deciphereing has to be done for every (new) camera model.

Or do you mean landguns? Well, my EX Speedlite which I have bought in the year 2000 together with a film body works on the 20D and every other E-TTL camera. Like the Sea&Sea way.
E-TTL (I) and E-TTL II don't produce compability problems like i-TTL and D-TTL.

For amphibic strobes the compability problems with new camera models only apply to converters which do not own the original complete E-TTL protocol. So this does not apply to the way Sea&Sea has chosen.

So I don't see your point.

Julian
| Canon 5D I+II / Sealux CC5-GD I+II custom converted | 2x Ikelite DS-125 | ULCS |

#10 craig

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Posted 21 October 2004 - 12:19 PM

Not to hijack the thread or anything (it is related) but does anyone know how to make 2nd curtain sync work with a Canon camera without an E-TTL strobe? There appears to always be a preflash signal that trips a manual strobe and no setting in the camera to disable it. If you mask off all pins other than the trigger on the hot shoe the preflash signal persists (and E-TTL strobes subsequently break). Canon strobes must have 2nd curtain sync configured in the strobe (and E-TTL wiring) for this to work.
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#11 ikelite

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Posted 21 October 2004 - 06:42 PM

Jolly: Since every new camera seems to require a different housing, it seems logical and more cost effective to have required conversion circuitry in the housing. It is easy for Canon to included several protocols in one strobe becuase they know what cameras are coming down the pike. We don't until we actually get them.

#12 Jolly

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Posted 22 October 2004 - 05:12 AM

Ike,

agreed. It makes sense if owning Ikelite DS-125s and getting with every Ikelite housing (when upgrading) the conversion as well and keep the strobe. This makes sense for Ikelite customers. No doubt.

I just tried to point out the different concepts on the market to Satura (especially for non ikelite housings). And they are pretty different.

Having that said, I will join the conversion way as well (Heinrichs). Still need my strobes for my Nik and I can shoot manually for the time being. Later adding just the converter.

Julian
| Canon 5D I+II / Sealux CC5-GD I+II custom converted | 2x Ikelite DS-125 | ULCS |

#13 Jolly

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Posted 22 October 2004 - 05:48 AM

Craig,

interesting point. Never tried it with an amphibic strobe. But I am not sure if this has something to do with the preflash signal. Just tried it with a non-E-TTL landgun with manual power settings. The flash fires one main flash. No preflash but right after the curtain has opened.

Hartenberger? wow. Don't forget to buy a new case for it. The "Inon strobe" bag might not be big enough :D

Julian
| Canon 5D I+II / Sealux CC5-GD I+II custom converted | 2x Ikelite DS-125 | ULCS |

#14 craig

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Posted 22 October 2004 - 11:40 AM

I think you're right. All I know is that there are two strobe signals, one at first then one at the 2nd curtain. When the strobe (mis)fires on the first signal it does expose like first curtain so I don't know whether its preflash or simply two signals allowing the strobe to choose. It appears that a manual strobe must know to ignore the first signal in order to do 2nd curtain properly. I can't imagine why there's not a custom function option to disable the first signal. All they need is a third option "force second curtain" in the existing control. Nikon has a "D-TTL vs. manual" custom setting that would work for Canon, too.

Hartenberger 625's are a real travel commitment, that's for sure. Hard to carry a spare!
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#15 herbko

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Posted 22 October 2004 - 12:10 PM

I don't know anything about how it's done, but it seems to me that it would take more than that to get second curtain sync to work right. The camera needs to know the duration of the flash. That can vary from 1/1000 to 1/250 depending on strobe and exposure.
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#16 Jolly

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Posted 22 October 2004 - 12:16 PM

sounds right. Maybe that's the reason and the Cameras simply ignore the 2nd curtain setting in the menu when a non-E-TTL-strobe is connected. mh.
| Canon 5D I+II / Sealux CC5-GD I+II custom converted | 2x Ikelite DS-125 | ULCS |

#17 craig

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Posted 22 October 2004 - 02:48 PM

I don't think Nikon knows that, though. I believe they assume it. At any rate, 2nd curtain works with my D100 and Kodak using manual strobes. Hartenberger claims that certain Nikon film cameras assume full flash dump in 1/500. It seems to me that Canon should be able to detect whether an E-TTL strobe is connected and disable the first pulse as appropriate. If not, let the user set it manually, even of that means specifying the strobe speed. I'd be happy with 1/250. As it is, it seems that no one can use 2nd curtain at all underwater with Canon while everyone can with Nikon. Does anyone NOT want to use 2nd curtain? It's permanently set for me.
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#18 satura

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Posted 23 October 2004 - 07:16 AM

I never missed 2nd curtain sync. What's the benefit when shooting with 1/250 and 2nd curtain?

#19 Jolly

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Posted 23 October 2004 - 08:39 AM

Hi Satura,

promised to post samples of the Heinrichs converter.
300D, YS-60 strobe (1m distance, ~ 45į angle).

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with small f-stop (22) full strobe power was not enough. Therefore the underexposure.
one real world sample, 300D, one Inon Z-220:


Forgot to answer your question: I've ordered a housing from Bruder.

Julian
| Canon 5D I+II / Sealux CC5-GD I+II custom converted | 2x Ikelite DS-125 | ULCS |

#20 craig

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Posted 23 October 2004 - 11:26 AM

I never missed 2nd curtain sync. What's the benefit when shooting with 1/250 and 2nd curtain?


None, but quite a benefit at 1/15. Question is, what's the benefit of 1st curtain sync? Clearly, for macro, either will do.

Some like to do slow shutter wide angle. Without 2nd curtain you give this up.
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