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The death of the film camera/housing market?


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#41 John Bantin

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Posted 14 June 2005 - 11:22 AM

I have just spent the last two days comparing eight different cameras that cost less than £500 ($US900) complete with housings and I must say the results are frighteningly good!
So do we need to spend more?

I buy my own photographic kit. Diving equipment manufacturers and diving services suppliers get even-handed treatment from me whether they choose to advertise in the publications I write for or not. All the equipment I get on loan is returned as soon as it is finished with. Did you know you can now get Diver Mag as an iPad/Android app?

 

#42 Rocha

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Posted 14 June 2005 - 11:28 AM

I have just spent the last two days comparing eight different cameras that cost less than £500 ($US900) complete with housings and I must say the results are frighteningly good!
So do we need to spend more?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


No, you just need to spend as much as the camera that works best for you costs, not a cent more.

EDIT: With camera I meant camera/housing/strobes (that is if you're not satisfied with the in-camera flash).

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#43 MikeVeitch

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Posted 14 June 2005 - 03:51 PM

I would be more than happy to go strictly digital, i love being able to shoot 100 photos on one dive, amazing. Also i no longer have to deal with the oh so pleasant smell of Colour B developer! However...the only reason i still shoot it from time to time is sunbursts pure and simple. Perhaps the D2X can do it better than my D70? And hopefully it has less noise, as we know it does, if i had that set up then i probably would give up film except the NIk V and 15mm for the smallness factor.
But, i won't be spending that sort of money any time soon therefore i am happy to shoot all macro on dig, and most WA but not all.
I only print up to 8x10s anyways so not a problem, i use most of my shots for magazines etc and going to an agency where i can successfully interpolate my D70 shots to 18x12 using Miranda software.
So at this point mostly digital for me, a touch of film and when i win that lawsuit against Michael Jackson....D2X or whatever the current good model is 5 years down the road when the money comes in....

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#44 Rocha

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Posted 14 June 2005 - 04:15 PM

So at this point mostly digital for me, a touch of film and when i win that lawsuit against Michael Jackson....D2X

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


Law suits can take a long time, don't wait! Do as I did, sell one of your kidneys.. :P

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#45 Kasey

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Posted 15 June 2005 - 03:42 AM

Woohoo - I just won a $200 sirostar slide view on ebay for a whopping $5.99!!! I love it!
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#46 John Bantin

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Posted 15 June 2005 - 06:03 AM

and when i win that lawsuit against Michael Jackson....D2X or whatever the current good model is 5 years down the road when the money comes in....

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


I thought you had told me you had given up sleeping with blokes?

...and as for all that chat about digital quality being better than film, I have shot many pictures that have been for 64-sheet posters on film and I would certainly hesitate to try to do that!

I buy my own photographic kit. Diving equipment manufacturers and diving services suppliers get even-handed treatment from me whether they choose to advertise in the publications I write for or not. All the equipment I get on loan is returned as soon as it is finished with. Did you know you can now get Diver Mag as an iPad/Android app?

 

#47 critter

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Posted 15 June 2005 - 11:01 AM

I don't think MJ is qualifies as a bloke....:P
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#48 jimbo1946

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Posted 15 June 2005 - 05:15 PM

Do as I did, sell one of your kidneys.. ;)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


Sell two and make twice as much... :P
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#49 Alex_Mustard

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Posted 16 June 2005 - 12:22 AM

I certainly found it difficult to get used to diving with such an expensive camera as the D2x. Taking that much money underwater is very disconcerting! I found it quite distracting and would stop in the middle of dives, panicking, and check inside the housing in case it was leaking.

I think part of the problem I had was that I also had a lot of diving planned with three trips back to back, stacked up. And I didn't want a problem at the beginning that would affect future trips.

I know this sounds stupid. But worrying about the camera definitely distracted me from my photography a bit during my first three trips with it! Anyway I am over it now. 8000 UW shots and it finally feels like my camera (in fact I think telling everyone I have taken 8000 shots is part of the therapy). So know I can concentrate again, hopefully my photography will improve some more.

Alex

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#50 John Bantin

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Posted 16 June 2005 - 09:21 AM

Alex is spot on.

I bought my first Hasselblad second-hand in 1968. It was a 500C and had a set of silver lenses. Soon all the latest lenses were finished in black but using an undesirable camera freed me up to get on with photography.

As an underwater photographer, I have continued with this policy using Nikon F801 when everyone bought F90 and using F90 when everyone bought F100. It is probably subliminally why I went for the S2 Pro as my first underwater digital (second-hand bodies are £650 in the UK).

The importer for Aquatica once said to me that my trouble (with wear and tear) was that I kept taking my housing in the sea when all his other customers kept theirs under their beds!
If you think you camera is a piece of jewellery or a status symbol you will end up neurotic and never take the risks needed to get good pictures!

I buy my own photographic kit. Diving equipment manufacturers and diving services suppliers get even-handed treatment from me whether they choose to advertise in the publications I write for or not. All the equipment I get on loan is returned as soon as it is finished with. Did you know you can now get Diver Mag as an iPad/Android app?

 

#51 Paul Kay

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Posted 16 June 2005 - 10:12 AM

I renamed the dual audio/visual leak detector in my housing as the neurosis control. I reckon it does allow for more peace of mind when taking UW pix.

But seriously, make sure your insurance covers flooding. I've had one payout (due to impact damage on entering the water!) and my insurers didn't bat an eyelid (they're still making a profit mind you).

Back to the topic, doesn't matter if its film or digital if it floods - may have more of a problem replacing digitals though as their production life is shorter!
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#52 onokai

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Posted 17 June 2005 - 12:44 AM

I think Cor's post got to the hart of this well so here it is again he said
(I made the switch to digital several years ago, so I am permanently on the dark side But as Im reading this thread, my wife is using a CoolScan 9000 ED next to me scanning some of her slides, and I again know what I am missing. The brilliant colors, the sharpness, the crispness, the huge potential of a 4000 dpi scanned slide. Sure, slides are on its last legs, but those legs are mighty pretty..
What we see when we are on a trip together (4-5 times a year), is that I (with my D100) get a lot more keepers, but her keepers, although much smaller in number, are so much prettier. Once you nailed it with a slide, its just plain amazing. Traveling together with digital and slide is really the best )

I shot a housed Nikon f3 for 20 + years underwater. Now I;m shoting a f5. I'm wondering what is the longest in years anyone has used a digital and is still using and still happy with that same camera and has not upgraded??That is they will keep shooting it and not replace with the next new wonder?? for say 5 years. Have not crossed to the dark side yet but will start when the d2x or latest Cannon is on the used market for peanuts/ with a Subal housing. Mark
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All that Nikonos junk
and now a subal d300 setup
Still a film divasourus with a baby toe in digital world

#53 Alex_Mustard

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Posted 17 June 2005 - 12:59 AM

I shot  a housed Nikon f3 for 20 + years underwater. Now I;m shoting a f5. I'm wondering what is the longest in years anyone has used a digital and is still using and still happy with that same camera and has not upgraded??That is they will keep shooting it and not replace with the next new wonder?? for say 5 years. Have not crossed to the dark side yet but  will start when the d2x or latest Cannon is on the used market for peanuts/ with a Subal housing.  Mark

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


I agree with a lot of what you say, Mark.

But I do think that digital's are now becoming less disposable! I think that the D2x and Canon 1DS series will always retain some decent value (1000 USD) because their output is better than a Coolscan 9000 ED!

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#54 cor

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Posted 17 June 2005 - 04:27 AM

I agree with a lot of what you say, Mark.

But I do think that digital's are now becoming less disposable! I think that the D2x and Canon 1DS series will always retain some decent value (1000 USD) because their output is better than a Coolscan 9000 ED!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I think they'll retain some value for the next 3-5 years (if you assume 20% is 'decent value'). Atfer that, I think the value will plummet. Psychology seems to play a big issue in the perceived value of used electronic items, more so than factual performance. Dont forget that if a future 16 megapixel DSLR camera is in itself $1000, getting $1000 for a 5 year old D2X is going to be tough. That is assuming you dont sell any lenses with it, as they most likely will retain a lot of their value. My company spits out and eats millions of dollars worth of used electronic equipment a year, most of which at 5 to 10% of value, even though they're still perfectly useable.

I have some unaltered D2X images (made by one of the photographers mentioned in the 'favourite photographers' thread who gave it to me for some comparisons) next to some coolscan scans and they seem to be on par with eachother, and both make excellent prints (ofcourse the D2X was 7 times more expensive than the camera used to create the slides, but lets not take that into account. Also dont forget that a coolscan 9000 can scan more than 35mm. A scan of a 6x7 medium format image on the 9000 looks stunning at nearly 100 megapixel, but im assuming you mean 35mm. And there is more to it than just prints. Showing a 35mm transparancy slideshow projected on a wall is still my favorite way to view images.

Not that id give up the benefits I feel i have with my good old D100 over most 35mm cameras. Im fully converted to digital. But I do think we should not think too much in absolutes when comparing things. It all depends on what you're aiming to do. (the old sunball discussion comes to mind, but there are issues both ways).

I do think the market for film is dead. But that doesnt mean that film is dead, and you shouldnt confuse the 2 statements. These are golden days for film photographers :P

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#55 MikeVeitch

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Posted 17 June 2005 - 05:03 AM

Definitely a Best of Wetpixel thread.

Just wanted to point out to Mr Bantin that when he bought his first Hasselblad i was years away from being a gleam in my fathers eye!!

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#56 Paul Kay

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Posted 17 June 2005 - 05:10 AM

I've compared 100Mb scans made of Velvia trannies from a Contax 645 (Coolscan 8000), and interpolated 100Mb files from the EOS1DS and reckon that the Canon sometimes have the edge! Paradoxically, some of the sharpest images from the Canon are off a 600mm f/4!

As for residual value, if you look at the prices being asked for a Canon 1D you will see that these are around £1000, 1DS are £2500~3000 compared to a UK price of £5000 for a new 1DSMkII. As I think I've mentioned before, I reckon to have saved the new price in film costs alone in less than 2 years. I think that Alex says he has shot ~8000 images on his D2X already. By my calculation this would have cost about two-thirds of the new cost of the D2X in terms of film & processing. PS - does anyone want to buy my (own, back-up) EOS1D???!!!
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#57 MikeVeitch

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Posted 17 June 2005 - 05:12 AM

I do think the market for film is dead. But that doesnt mean that film is dead, and you shouldnt confuse the 2 statements. These are golden days for film photographers :P

Cor

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>



Yes and no, i love shooting film and will always do so for particular ideas that i have in mind. However, as i said before and a few others have supported it is dead in such a place as where i live. I cannot develop film here, slide or print. This is happening more and more in small places and liveaboards all over the globe. The price and shipping of this "dangerous cargo" (it cost more to ship a box of E6 than it does to purchase it) means that less and less places will develop strictly due to the loss it creates to offer it. I simply cannot afford to purchase the chemicals from my own pocket at over $100 per single use Kodak chemistry with shipping and customs (ends up at around $130/box) Since i have been here (7 months) i have had a grand total of less than 7 people ask for E6, unfortunately those people are the type who process 2 or 3 rolls to check for exposure etc and thats it for the week. Meanwhile all that chemical goes to waste in the hot, humid environment i live in. 85% of our photographing guests use digital! Sure, i would love to be able to have my own E6 and offer it but its just not worth it financially.

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#58 cor

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Posted 17 June 2005 - 05:27 AM

Yes and no, i love shooting film and will always do so for particular ideas that i have in mind.  However, as i said before and a few others have supported it is dead in such a place as where i live.  I cannot develop film here, slide or print. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


Yeah, you're right on this. My wife and I live in Amsterdam, and here we have several pro labs. We live in the US Virgin Islands 3 months out of the year, and there we are also faced with a lack of slide developing. She does it herself with a Jobo. So yes, in that regard it is becoming tougher to be a film photographer. But in the civilized world, film is far from dead. The market is though. You can buy the most amazing stuff for next to nothing,

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#59 MikeVeitch

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Posted 17 June 2005 - 05:36 AM

Yeah, you're right on this. My wife and I live in Amsterdam,
Cor

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


My girlfriend lives in Arnhem! (Don't ask about transit please)
Ahhh Holland, such a good place...

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#60 Alex_Mustard

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Posted 17 June 2005 - 05:47 AM

I think that Alex says he has shot ~8000 images on his D2X already. By my calculation this would have cost about two-thirds of the new cost of the D2X in terms of film & processing.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


I think that this is an unfair way to the maths - as despite their quality most of that 8000 will never see the light of day. It is much fairer (from a film photographer's perspective) to compare digital camera costs with your previous film expense. So if you shoot 100 rolls a year then multiply this by stock and processing costs that gives you a working upgrade allowance!

Velvia 100F (@ B&H costs $5.59 single film rate). So a hundred rolls would set you back 559 bucks. Then you have to process it. I dunno how much this is in the States. But $5 would be cheap here. So another $500. So to shoot film for a year assuming buying no kit - costs >$1000.

I bought my D100 and Subal in 2002 and sold them in 2004. I posted the costs on WP a while ago, but owning that camera cost me $1500 for two years use.

So if I was shooting 100 rolls a year (i was actually shooting more) I actually saved money by buying a digital camera. $250 USD a year! Well that's what I tell myself anyway!

Obviously this doesn't factor in the arm, leg and kidney I paid for the D2x...

Alex

p.s. I agree with Cor that there is a big difference between the death of the film housing market and the death of film underwater photography.

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