Had a friend over last night and he brought around his new Sony HDRSR11.

Shot some stuff, low light seems abit better than the Sony A1, anyhow we sucked it into the computer.
Opened up EDIUS and dropped it onto the time line and hit play, it played but not too good and it would be a completed waste of time trying to edit with it like that.

So I fired up the AVCHD software converter and converted it to the Canopus HQ codec, then it was like editing mini DV. With the 3.2 ghz QUAD it took about 1.1 or maybe abit slower to convert to an easy editing codec.... so 20 mins would take maybe 25 mins to convert.

I was using our day Whale Shaking timeline which had around 20 hours of HD on the timeline and it made me think that man what a nightmare it would be if I had to somehow archive all the footage, luckily it was shot on tapes and they are just sitting in the cupbboard.

Another cool thing is I had footage from the EX1, FX1, HC1, A1, and the SR11 all together on the same timeline mixing in nicely.

Anyhow I was wondering if there is any other NLE out there that can edit this AVCHD really easy without having to convert it to an intermediate codec first which kind of defeats the purpose of having a hard drive video camera for fast input into the computer anyhow.

Sony Vegas 8

Vegas 8 are you sure....in realtime.....raw AVCHD?

So you are saying that if you put the AVCHD files straight from the camera's hardrive to the NLE and they play instantly. If you put fades between two clips or some color correction does it play smooth and can it be scrubbed fast on the timeline.

By the sounds of it everyone converts them to an easy editing intermediate codec first.

Vegas uses a downgraded preview signal so it doesn't have to decode AVCHD at full quality. Hence it can work in AVCHD native in realtime and output to BD or whatever. It's probably the fastest native AVCHD editor right now.
Remember AVCHD is considered an acquisition format... not editing. Just like XDCAM EX and HDV
Oh Wags, when you title a topic about a camera, try to talk more about it and less about your favorite NLE.

Drew I was not talking about the NLE I use rather then the ability to edit raw AVCHD in realtime without converting to another codec. So Vegas downgrades the preview signal... great...how useless is that.

Editing multiply streams of raw XDCAM or HDV is a reality at full res preview here but not AVCHD.

I recon I can convert AVCHD to a easy codec, edit multi streams, graphics, CC and make a Blu_Ray quicker than what you could in Vegas.

So the bottom line is that if you want to edit multiply streams of AVCHD in realtime and see it at high res you need to convert it...so what's the point of having a hardrive AVCHD camera..... it's not going to save you any time...then you have to archive it.....ha ha...

Maybe, maybe not.



You don't have to buy acquisition media. Ever. For an avid shooter, this could be rather significant.

I do have a question for you though. You seem to make a rather large deal in your posts about how you don't have to archive since you just put your tapes in the cupboard. How do you save your finished work? Once you take that raw footage, edit it, grade it, title it, add audio tracks, etc. Where do you save that version of your files?



Unless this is new behavior from Vegas with AVCHD, I've not seen it. Vegas does an upconvert on the chroma space to a default 4:4:4. It CAN offer a downgraded preview in three levels (good, preview, and draft) but simply selecting "best" immediately shows the real deal both on the preview screen, and pushed to your broadcast monitor. I typically cut in preview mode, but grade in best/full. It does make a difference.

Raw footage is in the cupboard with the other 13 year old DV tapes straight after I have sucked it in.

Finished edit will get rendered out to a m2t stream and sent back to a tape or data DVD if it will fit or
the whole timeline edit will be compiled and put on to a dvd or hardrive and put into the cupboard for future edits. But raw footage is tape archive if drive fails.

I lost a 320 gig drive this year and I have a 3 month old VISTA laptop here that will not boot due to a bad drive I am fixing for a lady that had the hardrive failed on her.......lucky I have a program that loads into the ram and I could drag most of her 1 GIG African holiday pics to a portable USB drive....but it took me all day due to bad hard drive sectors. Her drive is stuffed...why....because hard dives are high precision devices that can fail very easy for many reasons so storing you footage on them is like playing a game of Russian roulette.

I'll download Vegas and just see how good it handles raw AVCHD on my 3.2 GIG Quad here.

Please let us know how that works. I don't have any AVCHD footage to test with.

When I work with corporate, archival, or sensitive projects, I usually do a few things.

1. Record to Firestore (version 1)
2. Copy from firestore onto scratch drive (version 2)
3. Render 2GB clips from scratch drive into 1 long cineform file on work drive (version 3)
4. Overnight copy of Cineform file to separate machine (version 4)
5. Begin project. Saving after cutting each scene. Copy EDL to backup machine each night.
6. On completion, render masterfile to work drive, copy to scratch disk.
7. Print master to miniDV or full size DV depending on length.
8. Confirm master with client.
9. Delete working files.


With HD projects if I am not using Cineform, then Step 3 is render proxy file and at that point I have 2 full sized backups.

There is a lot of redundancy with this workflow, and sometimes I streamline it depending on the project. But when I can't reshoot, I err on the side of caution.

I don't know if you've used vegas before. To see how it is really doing, select "best and full" quality on preview and then set the preview monitor to be your second computer monitor or to an external firewire monitor or to an HD monitor (i dont know what video card you are using) That way you will see the video at its best rendering in real time.

If you have a lot of ram, set the preview use of ram to half your available ram.

This should give you a good look at what you are testing. Have fun and I hope you will impressed. I can run vegas on an old p4 2.4 single processor laptop with two streams of HD and a graphic stream with no problem using an external fast drive. Granted I don't preview in full resolution but it gets my rough edits done quickly. I think that is Vegas' biggest strength. Runs well and stable on slower boxes.

Wow Perroneford sounds like allot of work there.

OKAY I have it installed....set it to full res to second monitor, placed a raw AVCHD & XDCAM mxf clip on the timeline.....it's pretty clunky guys. there is no way one could edit like this.

Set it to draft auto and it plays better but the preview screen is a mess.
Project setting is set to 1920/1080.

QUAD CPU running at 3.2ghz here.
CPU sits around 50% trying to play play the AVCHD at full res.
CPU sits around 25% trying to play the XDCAM mxf at full res

CPU sits around 30% playing the AVCHD at preview auto res.
CPU sits around 10% playing the XDCAM mxf at preview auto res.
You could edit at preview auto setting but the screen is pretty soft and makes it impossible to watch for sharpness of shots etc. I guess I'm just use to a nice sharp preview window and going from the preview auto setting to full res is like chalk and cheese in quality.


Questions:
Where do you set the amount of ram?
Is there a setting where you can make it use more of your CPU?

I'm only using a twin 126 meg graphics card still.

Here is some more.
Cranked up the ram usage and CPU is set to use all 4 cores.

I cannot get full 25 fps when set on full res preview with AVCHD or XDCAM mxf clip.

I then changed the project settings to 1440/1080 and dropped a raw m2t HDV clip on it.
Even that would not play back at full speed on full res.
Am I doing something wrong?...do I need a raid drive......well.....

.....I fired up EDIUS and dropped that same 1440/1080 m2t clip on the timeline, not only did it play realtime but I had a total of 5 tracks playing in PIPS realtime and displaying on my second monitor nice and sharp.

I'll keep tinkering with Vegas to see if I can get better results.
EDIT.... got the 1440/1080 m2t playing back realtime now, turned of the deinterlacer.

FYI, the AVCHD m2t files are all progressive nowadays, Wags.

Well in the end I got the raw 1440/1080 HDV m2t files playing back realtime on Vegas at full res on the preview widow by turning off the deinterlacer.

As for editing AVCHD in realtime at full res in the second preview monitor...forget it...it did not matter what projects setting I had it on Drew.

So it kind of defeats the purpose of having a AVCHD hardrive camera as it will take more time in converting the AVCHD to an intermediate codec to edit than just sucking some stuff straight in and converting on the fly from a tape to an intermediate codec if you want full res editing. Yes you can play edit the stuff on draft auto setting but you could not do any serious editing like that.....then you still have to add extra time to archive the raw material to a safe medium.

Next I will download Premier Pro and see how that goes with raw AVCHD.

Been messing around with Avid Liquid.
Would not work on my system for some reason, maybe because I have only a 128 meg graphics card still?
Anyhow it would open up and the timeline would play with sound but the image would just not move?
Took about 1 minute to import a 5 min m2t file into it and then it took 5 minutes to shut the program down (terminate program=crash), it did some strange things to my display as well.
I messed around with many settings but could not get it to run...so it's gone to the recycle bin.

Now were is Prem Pro

My god Wags your a man on a mission..... so if you find a better program than Edius will you change teams

BAHAHAHAHAAH!!! Surely you JEST!

Hey it gives me a break from my coding....building Dreamweaver forms using Spry is not very exciting....
There is only one way to find out how these new NLE versions run now.

Abit lost as to why Avid Liquid would not work...my QUAD computer is running very good here.

Premiere Pro CS3 downloaded but the file was corrupt, trying to download again.....

Moving right along..
Premiere Pro CS3....it would not even import a raw AVCHD file
Same with a XDCAM mxf clip.
Looks like there needs to be a plugin like Cineform to convert them to intermediate formats for easy editing.

It was even struggling to play two Raw HDV 1440/1080 m2t clips in realtime at full preview and even with just one it was unbelievable clunky to scub....
Maybe I need raid drives or something.
I can have 4 nearly five playing back in realtime on EDIUS with a single sata drive.?

Importing a HDV 1440/1080 m2t clip took a very long time as it was conforming it or something....project setting were correct though.
I do like the keyframing though in premiere.

So it's joined the others in the trash bin..

What's next....

Or you could use the free tool that comes with XDCam cameras that do the re-wrap for you, assign metadata, and do all other sorts of neat tricks.

Yeh but how long does that process take?

Umm, it was 5:1 on my 2GHZ, 1 drive laptop for 1080p. On a high performance machine probably closer to 10:1 or maybe 20:1 with raid. It's a re-wrap not a re-compress, so it's just writing the files.

Based on what I am seeing, it should take about 6 minutes or less to convert an hour of video. Compared to having to render to cineform or any other intermediate codec, that's blazingly fast.

But that's with XDCAM mxf footage, I can already edit 3 raw mxf streams of that at max res in realtime so not point in rewrap.

It's AVCHD that's the problem.
Vegas is the only one so far but just see how long you stick at editing in a very low res preview mode...impossible to see sharpness, colour corection, graphics's, just good for basic cuts with one stream.

I got my hands on some AVCHD from a Panasonic SD9 AVCHD and dumped that on the timeline...you have to be joking...1920/1080 24p 17mbps AVCHD....no way to edit it... so I converted it to a 1920/1080 24p Canopus HQ file then it flew.
The orginal AVCHD file came in at 130 megs but once I had converted it to the Canopus HQ codec is was 557 megs...
I could manage the clip playing back in 4 pips with a title in realtime on a single sata drive even in the 1920/1080 50i project setting.
Here is the 720/576 24p CBR 8mbps mepg DVD m2p file I rendered out from the timleine. The grain and blur was also in the raw 1920/1080 AVCHD file as well when played outside of the NLE ?
66 megs
http://www.pcwags.com/HDV/24p.m2p

Best way so far is to convert it then it's like editing DV so get use to long converting-waiting times from your instant hardrive editing camera's.
It's also about 130 megs per minute of raw AVCHD 1920/1080 24p 17mbps so to archive raw the footage onto normal DVD disk one could get about 30-35 minutes which would take about 10 mins at safe 4x speed as using faster burning speeds can create problems.

I sure in a few years CPU and software will improve so one can edit like DV but it's certainly not here yet.

Anyone tried it out on the MAC with FCP?

If you post a raw AVCHD file on your site or here then I will give it a crack.

Sure here you go
It looks like the file is still there.
http://www.sendspace.com/file/3fo72w
Scroll to the bottom of the page and look for Download Link: 00003.m2ts
It's from the Panasonic SD9

I'm having trouble doing anything with it... can't convert in QT, play in VLC, import in FCP, even tried to chuck it into Sorrenson but not joy....
I must be doing something wrong... anybody any ideas?

J

Yeh it's nasty, I can however play in with Media Player Classic on the PC at full screen.
It looks like Windows Media player can play them too.

It does load into Procoder Express encoder but locks it up after abit.
TMPGEnc, Super@, Flash 9, On2, Vlc, QT, nope.
Only way so far it to use the 1.1 speed Canopus AVCHD convert to Canopus HQ then it's very easy to edit but huge files.

My Vegas crashes every time I try to open it.

It's a bloody nightmare format..... there must be a easy solution.

Guys
The reason the Panny SD9 clips are incompatible with many players/NLE is because it has motion references in the Br-Frames. Basically they switched the formula and it caught everyone by surprise. Welcome to the world of digital editing.

Just for kicks I played with some SD9 1080/24p from someone else and it transcodes to AIC via Log and Transfer of FCP 6.0.4 at 0.9x real-time. Going to Pro Res 422, it took 1.1x realtime on my MBP 2.33. This was taken direct from camera. Later I set up a SDHC 8GB Sandisk Extreme III card and d/l and it was 0.8x real-time to AIC and 1x real-time to ProRes 422. My previous experience with the HF10 was a bit faster but essentially the same speed.
The real advantage of flash media isn't the speed but the convenience of choosing which clip to transfer and even which part of the clip. It's a faster workflow than log and capture on tape and definitely faster than logging an entire tape in to find the scenes you want.
Once you finish the product, you can encode to what format for whatever delivery.
The doozy? FCP can't just import from any old folder. It has to be on the desktop and in a certain format, a slight inconvenience. You just have to make sure the PRIVATE folder and all the requisite bits are copied in the desktop.