mmccue

I just returned from a trip to Palau, and I was able to experiment a bit more with the FS100/Genesis setup. I think that at least a big part of the color reproduction issues, as well as the rings and halo effects, are due to problems within the 16mm pancake lens. I left that lens in my bag this trip, and decided to try the stock 18-55mm e mount lens with an equinox blue water color correction filter. I was very happy with the results. I'm now convinced that with a decent lens, the right filer, a few tweaks to the picture profile, and adding a housing for my Ninja2 deck, it is possible to consistantly get very good quality images with this rig. I just posted a few unedited clips on vimeo....https://vimeo.com/83361414 I tried to pick clips with more color, so these are not neccesarily my best shots. All of the clips I've posted were shot with natural light, at depths between 40 and 80 feet, with the 18-55mm lens, and equinox filter. I did manual white balance on a white slate with exsisting light at around 20 feet on my way down (with no further adjustments), or in some cases I was able to get a decent manual white balance using my 2 sola 1200 lights on the white slate, and then switching the lights off. I set the gain to 9db on some of the deeper shots, which doesn't seem to have any noticeable ill effects (to me anyway). I also saw no signs of the halos or rings. Proper exposure is definitely neccesary, although I personally like the look of the slightly underexposed shots. There seems to be planty of detail left, so I'm sure bumping them up in post a bit will result in a good look. I hope there are still others that still haven't given up on this camera for underwater use. It will be a while before I can afford another set up, and my next camera will undoubtably be a 4k model. Please keep posting your experiences. Mike McCue

Update...the camera has sold, but I still have the housing. Please let me know if you are interested in the housing alone. The ports are in excellent shape (no scratches).

I am selling a Sony HVR-Z1U camcorder package with Light and Motion Bluefin HD Housing. Everything is in excelent working condition with only normal signs of wear an tear. The equipment is located in Guam and can easily be shipped to U.S. or other destinations. Personal delivery could be possible within the Asia Pacific region - Only $2500 for full package- May consider selling seprately for right price. Detailed pictures available upon request. Camera - Sony HVR Z1U with battery, charger, remote, manual, and all the original accessories - 29x10h operation Housing - Light and Motion FX100/Z1 with Wide Angle and Flat Ports, Wide and Close flip down diopters, Mic. Adapter, Pelican Case, Manual and lots of spare parts

Here are some samples from a recent dive showing the halo/banding effect that has been mentioned. This was shooting without a filter. I manually white balanced on a grey slate as I was descending at around 25 feet. I don't recall the temperature that popped up, but it looked good at that depth. I then descended to about 50 feet without touching the white balance. I've used this method with other sony cameras (EX1R and Z1) and while it's not ideal (images are fairly blue), the results are usually acceptable and can easily be corrected in post. This was shot with a 1080/60p PS setting, 0 db Gain, and everything on manual. The effect seems worst in darker areas at F stops of 16 to 13. You can see them come and go in the video clip as the image becomes more exposed and then darker again. You'll notice me adjust the iris manually from F16 to F13 aat around 15 seconds int0 the video clip. I originally thought the banding was some sort of reflection inside the dome port, as I have had issues with that as well. Silver is a bad color choice for a lens. It's interesting to hear that the effect has been seen topside, as mentioned on this thread about the FS700. http://wetpixel.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=49724&hl=%2Bfs100+%2Bwhite+%2Bbalance&do=findComment&comment=330239 Under what conditions are you recreating the halo/banding effect topside Simon? Seems like it would be easier to experiment on the dry side if that's possible. Mike

Looks like another option is on the way. If Simon is right and the issue in camera, or something between the camera and the lens, the superior codec might not solve anything. Has anyone been able to experiement with different lenses or external storage devices underwater? I have a Ninja 2, but haven't been able to get it in the water yet. Works great topside. My only dissapointment is that I'm unable to record different frame rates with it. http://wetpixel.com/articles/nauticam-previews-housing-for-atomos-ninja-2 Mike

It sounds like Amphibico is up in the air as to whether they'll release a housing for the Ninja2 or not. I was refered to Dive and See who does have a housing availabale currently. http://www.diveandsee.com/products/underwater-monitors/1 I have the Ninja 2 deck already, and I'll be ordering the housing soon. Hopefully using the better codec will help resolve these issues. Mike

I think you're on to something Drew. I did a quick online search and found a nice FS100 handbook (http://stake5.be/attachments/pdf/FS100_handbook.pdf) that I haven't seen before. It has good explanations about all of the functions and picture profile settings. Under white balance it states; "There are times when the correct white balance cannot be obtained by designating a color temperature alone, such as when you are shooting under fluorescent or LED lights. In such cases, we recommend you also use the WB SHIFT function under the Picture Profile menu" This is what it says in the picture profile section; WB SHIFT Fine-tunes white balance or creates an effect that is similar to using a color filter. Two types of adjustment methods — LB-CC and R-B — are available. We recommend you start with the LB-CC adjustment method. A higher set value leads to warmer colors, while a lower setting creates colder colors. Please make sure you adjust white balance first. FILTER TYPE ➞ LB-CC (Light Balancing - Color Correcting) :LB (COL TEMP): Adds an effect similar to applying a color temperature adjustment filter –9 (Blue: Bluish) ~ +9 (Amber: Reddish) NOTE: Approx. 100K/step :CC (MG/GR): Adds an effect similar to applying a color correction filter –9 (CCG: Green) ~ +9(CCM: Magenta) NOTE: 1 step is equivalent to 2.5 in color correction filter number. FILTER TYPE ➞ R-B :Alters the R (Red) or B (Blue) level in the video signal. –9 (Lowest level) ~ +9 (Highest level) I'm at work now, so I'll have to wait until later to experiment, but it souds like shifting up to amber in the LB setting, and/or up towards magenta in the CC, and possibly shifting down towards red in the RB should result in the desired effect. Sounds like I may need to spend some time sitting on the bottom paging through menus, but hopefully I can come up with a few picture profiles to choose from as depths and conditons change. To answer your question Simon, I have tried 2 different filters (I mentioned the brands earlier). I definitely have had more success with the second one over the other. I'll pick up a URPRO and give that a try too. Thanks for the reccomendations, Mike

Sorry I can't answer your question thani, I can only add more questions to the mix for now. Your observations reminded me of something that I discovered while setting up my camera on land the other day. I always run through the functions of the housing at the home just to make sure everything is working correctly. While doing that (with my red filter on), I noticed a big difference in the look between the manual white balance and the preset white balance with the same color temp dialed in. I just recreated those results in my car port using a white slate and some colored bins, with and without the red filter. I'll attach some screen captures of results below now. As you'll notice, the two white balance methods produced what look to be identical results without the filter on the lens, but radically different results with the filter on. So the camera is clearly doing something differently with the manual one touch method, where it can manage to compensate for the extreme color change caused by the filter. With the preset, the camera does NOT do the same thing, and isn't able to compensate for the filter. I imagine it's the same at the surface (or shallow water), and then at depth. With a manual white balance it can compensate for the color change caused by the water, but it does not compensate the same when the temperature is preset. That explains why I am able to get good results by manually white balancing in shallow water, but like I mentioned, the manual white balance just won't work at depth, so preset is the only choice I have. So the question seems to be, what is the camera doing differently between the two methods, and is there a way to get it to do the right thing at depth?

I'm glad to hear you love FS100 too, and thanks for sharing your experiences and film r4e. It seems like with the right picture profile, red filter, and custom color temperature dialed in, the FS100 can definitely work well underwater. I just haven't found the perfect blend yet, but I'm getting close. I am now convinced that I need to use a less saturated profile, so I've entered a couple new ones to try on my next dive. I'll also give your pp a try. I guess it must be a bit darker where your shooting, or your filter must block more light than mine. What depths were the scenes in your film shot? Using the sony 16mm f f2.8, I've been as deep as 25 meters now with a filter, and I've never had to set my shutter speed below 60, or raise the gain above zero to get a good exposure. Also, I've been shooting 60p exclusiviely. I mentioned the issue that I've had with the manual one push white balance earlier. I'm still curious to hear if anyone else has experienced the same thing, but it sounds like the housings that your using don't allow access. I can only manually white balance with one push and a card to a depth of maybe 10 meters. After that, the camera just seems to choose random (and really wrong) color temps, so that's when I'm now switching to preset, and dialing in the temp myself. With other sony cameras I've used, if the camera can't find a proper setting, the icon just continues to flash and it keeps the previous setting. Any ideas why this is happening with the FS100, and do you think there's a way around it? My best results in the past have always been with manual white balance, but maybe I just have to accept that my old methods won't work with this camera. I finally purchased a Ninja 2 deck, so I'm looking froward to trying that out. It doesn't look like the Amphibico housing for it is available yet. Hopefully they haven't given up on it. Mike

Remeber those shots are straight out of the camera. I haven't had time to experiment any further, but I'm confident that with some minimal color correction, I can get them looking great. (At least what looks great to me haha). I agree with Peter and usually like things to look pretty close to what they looked like to me underwater. I use the red slime cyanobacteria that's on almost every reef as a gauge for the reds. I know it's almost a bright orangeunder proper lights, but I try to keep it more of a dep red. I'm just happy to be on the right path with a good white balance techinique for the FS100. There's obviously a ton of opinions and different ways of doing things. The picture profile I've been using is definitely on the saturated side, and it's actually one that I have been using mostly topside. I defnitely want to find another (more toned down) profile or two for underwater, but I haven't gotten that far with this camera yet. The things that I shoot usually highlight island scenes, and everyone expects dreamy blue water and bright green hills. They are usually quick in and out projects, and spending another full day on color correcting just isn't worth it. So until I get the Ninja 2 and change my codec (which I am planning to do very soon), I'm happy with a slighlty over saturated AVCHD profile that needs only minimal grading. I'll play with some G-Log type profiles with the Ninja and see how that effect the cameras ability to white balance properly. Thanks again for the pointers, Mike McCue

I agree, definitely a little oversturated and red, but I've found that's what people seem to expect on coral reefs anyway. It would have been nice to remove the filter and jump back in, but I was diving from my little inflateable, and I'm just not willing to risk opening up the housing so close to the water. I'll head out again soon, and see what things look like without the filter. I'm just happy to have something acceptable that I can work with now. I'm sure with a little more testing; with and without filters, tweaking the temperature setting, and coming up with a good picture profile or two, etc., I can get everything looking just the way I like it. Thanks again for all of the suggestions, Mike

I finally got in the water yesterday to try a few more WB techniques, and I had much better results thanks to all of your suggestions. To answer your questions Simon, I have NOT done the version 2.0 firmware update. It didn't seem to have a lot to offer me, and I have had similar problems with updates before. Seems everytime that I update any hardware, or software, I run into new issues. So unless they offer something really enticing, I generally stick with what's working already. Sounds like I made the right choice to wait this time. I've been using the Sony 16mm 2.8 lens with a 6" dome port for my wide angle stuff and I have an extension ring for adding the fish eye converter, which has been a lot of fun to play with. I have also been using the stock 18-55mm with the autofocus flat port, and close up kit for macro. I plan to get some better lenses eventually, but I'm pretty happy with the options this set up gives me so far. At first I had purchased a bigblue brand "flourodiving" threaded color correction filter. It's color is much more yellow than most underewater filters that I've seen underwater, and I think that's part of the reason that I was having trouble getting a proper white balance. Since then, I purchased a Fantasea brand "RedEye" filter through B and H, and that's what I used yesterday with much better results. Of course it would be ideal to have a flip down filter, but that's a small thing to give up in exchange for having interchangable lenses I guess. The camera still has the irrating habit of choosing random, and really off, color temperatures when I tried manual white balancing below 30 feet yesterday, but I tried tried dialing in the temperatures that Peter suggested and (with the filter attached) things looked much better. The site I dove has a max depth of about 50 feet, so I didn't get to push the limits of the filter, but I'm really happy with the results that I achieved in that depth range anyway. So here's what ended up working best for me; surface to 15' - Manual WB on white slate 15 to 30' - Manual WB on grey slate 30' to 40' - Preset WB setting dialing between 6,000 and 6,500k 40' to 50' - Preset WB between 6,500 and 7,000k I'll attach some sceenshots. These are straight from the camera, no color correction at all. My picture profile is a little more saturated than some would suggest, but since I am still using the AVCHD format, I prefer things to look as close to the final product out of camera as possible. Simon, it would be great to share your experiences with this set up as you go. Feel free to pm me anytime. Cheers, Mike McCue

Until Amphibico releases the Ninja Splash (and I come up with the cash to buy one), I'm still capturing AVCHD in camera. So I'm trying to get the best results straight out of the camera as possible. I have been able to tweak things in post to an acceptable look. I just know it can get better.

Thanks for the replies guys. The color temperatures that you listed are very intersteing Peter. Like I mentioned, I can manually create a preset as high 15,000k. The reason I thought that wasn't sufficent is that when I do a manual WB in shallow water, the camera shows that it has picked a setting >15,000k, and that looks great. I was assuming that deeper would need to be an even warmer setting...right? Other Sony cameras that I've worked with (small handicams, Z1, and EX1 for example), simply won't WB manually if conditions aren't right. The WB icon just continues to flash to show that it was unadle to complete a proper setting, and it holds the last setting. The FS100 operates differently, and instantly seems to pick a random setting. Each time I try (even under the same conditions) it has an annoying habit of jumping to a different setting, ranging greatly in the temperature, and never seems anywhere near proper. I understand how filters work, and I've had good success finding WB methods with my other cameras. I've been able to learn what methods work best in different conditions, using all of the tools avialable; filters, lights, different colored slates, etc. So my question is really specific to the FS100. So far, I just haven't figured out the right method at depth, so I was just wondering if anyone else has had more luck. I will give the lower presets that Peter stated a try, and let you know how it works. Cheers, Mike

I recently purchased the Amphibico Genesis housing for my Sony FS100, and I have really enjoyed filming with it so far. The light sensitivity of the camera coupled with easy access to all of the controls seems to make it a great choice. I have not been very succesful in finding a good method for white balancing at depth however. Manual white balance in shallow water works fine, but below about 15 meters, the camera just seems to choose a color temperature randomly and won't set to anything near what I consider a proper look. I've tried the custom preset function, but the highest temperature that will allow is 15,000k. Every manual setting I've ended up with (in shallow water) has been >15,000, so the custom setting isn't helping. I've tried on a white slate, grey slate, pointed at the sand, pointed at the reef, pointed at the sun, with lights, without lights, with color correction filters, and without filters, but I can't seem to find the right combination. Most of the footage that I've seen posted with this rig so far looks great shallow, but also washed out blue at depth, so I guess others must be having the same issue. Besides major color correction in post, is there anyone using this camera underwater who has found a good solution?