First DSLR - Help!

[Mike Scott 0]

Hi

 

I've been doing a bit of underwater photography with a housed ixus 500 and a YS-25 strobe and while some of the results have been great I've become a bit frustrated with it. I think I'm ready to take the next step and buy a DSLR which will be useful above water as well. This is my shopping list so far:

 

EOS 350D or EOS 20D - is the extra £370 worth it for the 20D or is it overkill for a novice, since I'm probably going to spend £4-5K it seems like a relatively small amount more.

 

Lenses

10-22mm with 3" dome port

60mm with flat port

17-85mm for general use above water - is it worth getting a port for this (it's only £150), most people don't seem to like this sort of range but it seems like it would offer good flexibility

either a 28-200mm or 90-300mm for telephoto above water - the 90-300 is significantly cheaper and seems more sensible (since the 28 end of the 28-200 is covered by the 17-85) is there any reason to go with the 28-200?

 

Underwater kit

Ikelite housing

Ports (as above)

DS-125 strobe kit with cables, arms, etc (I'd love 2 but that really would be pushing the budget to breaking point)

 

And finally a 2GB Sandisk Extreme III CF Card

 

This gives a total price of of around £4000-4800 depending on what options I go for. As a student this represents a fairly huge fraction of my savings so I want to get this right first time. I guess my specific questions are

a) 350D or 20D?

b) do I get a port for the 17-85mm?

c) if I get a port for the 17-85mm do I need the 10-22mm and 60mm?

d) is there a good reason to get the 28-200mm over the 90-300mm

 

Anyway I'd be really grateful for any advice that you can give.

 

Cheers

 

Mike

[Rocha 0]

Hi Mike, welcome to wetpixel!

 

Well, this topic has been discussed here before, and the general conclusion was that both cameras are great. The main differences are that the 20D has a better build quality, slightly faster autofocus, faster frame rate, and a larger buffer (allowing you to take more photos in a burst). If any of these factors are going to make a difference to you, then I'd say you should spend the extra bucks and get the 20D, otherwise get the 350D. I am sure I'm forgetting something, but Canon users will certainly contribute more.

 

Also, take a look at this topic about the 350D:

 

http://wetpixel.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=7527

 

I hope this helps.

 

Luiz

[mattdiver 0]

Hi Mike,

 

I'm not a Canon user, but the general rule of thumb is to buy the best camera you can (or cannot!) afford, which generally means the most expensive one, simply because it costs so much to house one.

 

One day, not too long from now, you'll find that your shooting creativity or ability to get the shot you want using the camera you got. Today, the answer may be the 350D, but tomorrow it could mean upgrading to the 20D and another £4,000.

 

Regardign lens selection, the thread Rocha mentions will tell you more, but the 10-22mm and 60mm are probably good for a start. I've used the 17-85mm on a friend's setup and found it too soft, but that may have come from me

 

Cheers,

Mat

[Jolly 3]

Some more points between 350D and 20D: 350D has a slightly smaller viewfinder and is the only Canon DSLR using a smaller battery (same battery as in my pocket S60). Canon claims the 350D's power consumption has been lowered accordingly and I don't know how long the significant smaller battery lasts, but you might have to open the housing between dives in order to change the battery.

 

I don't know the 350D in detail. I just think to remember that changing aperture is kind of difficult with the 300D (hold down one button while turning the whell, etc.). 20D has advantages in this regard (two wheels for example). Personally I would go for the 20D.

 

17-85mm: not really wide and not really a macro lens. But I find a standard zoom range very usefull for some subjects, like turtles, mantas, etc.. Depends on visibility and how close you can get or not. I use the Sigma 18-50mm f2.8 in this range and like it.

 

Julian

[caminu 0]

Jolly has mentioned about the two wheels (control dial) that are only available in 20D. IMHO, the two wheels are definitely preferred.

 

Also, one of my friends is using 350D with ikelite housing. He said that the LCD panel (the panel that shows what shutter speed and aperture value) will be blocked by the housing's viewfinder, which makes it virtually impossible to see. Meanwhile, in the case of 20D, the placement of the LCD panel is located at the top of the camera.

[Alex_Mustard 0]

I think that the usefulness of the 17-85mm depends on where you dive and what you like to shoot. Personally I would house it. I like mid range lenses UW. That said it is often best to restrict the options when starting out with a new system.

 

Alex

[Arnon_Ayal 1]

The 2 wheels that Jolly mentioned is very useful when you shoot manually as we do a lot u/w, I can't see myself giving up this ability.

That point (and also the missing spot ) is the reason that I can't understand the comparison between the Canon & Nikon entry level DSLRs. (D70/s Vs. 300/350D)

[Mike Scott 0]

I'd just like to say thanks for all your really helpful replies. I'm quite nervous about buying my first DSLR and housing so getting some advice from more experienced people is incredibly reassuring.

[dhaas 32]

Don't discount the Rebel 350D (XT in the U.S.) Every photo except the Lemon shark was shot with the 17-85mm IS lens at the link below. Also all shot on eTTL2 adjusting only FEC on the back of the housing.

 

http://www.ikelite.com/web_pages/triv_haas350xt.html

 

Manual mode on the original Rebel and the XT is operated by a "hold in" button on the Ikelite housing back making the control dial adjust aperture. I'm not sure how you guys shoot, but I would adjust f-stop much more often after setting a shutter speed for background lighting.

 

Viewfinder, frame rate and even buffer in RAW are not super significant compared to the 20D, which is a great camera, too. I also like the smaller camera and lower price, which allowed me to buy 2 bodies (!!!) and spend $$$$$ on 10-22mm and 17-85mm lenses.

 

YMMV

 

David Haas

[mtbottle 0]

I'm in pretty much the same situation right now, looking to upgrade from compact -> dSLR.

Just priced up a 20D with everything on your list except the 90-300 and an 18-55 instead of a 17-85 , it comes out £4000ish buying it all from camerasunderwater.co.uk (althought I may try and work on them at the birmingham dive show!)

 

plan b is to sell my soul for a complete 5D rig

[james 0]

I disagree with Dave on this one (as he knows, lol). You know I love you Dave.

 

I think the 20D is well worth the increased cost. On my last trip, my wife was using the 20D with an Ikelite setup. For macro shooting, the larger viewfinder on the 20D was a required feature. Without a special magnified viewfinder, the Ikelite housing makes the CAMERA's viewfinder size very important. I'm not sure Sarah would have been able to get her excellent photos with the Rebel XT.

 

Cheers

James

[herbko 0]

Mike,

 

FYI. This is a great price!

 

http://wetpixel.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=10055&hl=

[dhaas 32]

Hey James and Mike,

 

Boy oh boy do I LOVE stumbling on to this bit of data.........

 

According to specifications posted on Steve's Digicam's web site reviews of both cameras, here's what I see.

 

Specifications on the viewfinders on the Canon 20D and Rebel XT:

 

Canon 20D:

 

95% view horizontal and vertical

.8X magnification

20mm eyepoint relief view

 

 

Canon Rebel XT

 

95% view horizontal and vertical

.8X magnification

21mm eyepoint relief view

 

So, if people say they can't use the Rebel XT to make underwater photos, what is this based on? A 1mm difference in eyepoint relief?

 

I did note that the Rebel XT uses a penta-MIRROR which according to many reviews is brighter than the original Canon Digital Rebel. Canon 20D has a penta-PRISM although with a built in flash it likely ain't a great big one like the new 5D or the old non-flash SLR film cameras.

 

Sooooo.........A very beautiful Canon 20D viewfinder may be a bit brighter (??????) but bigger than the compact REBEL XT? Doesn't look like it.....

 

Food for thought.........

 

David Haas

[james 0]

Hi Dave,

 

Try the two side by side and you'll see what I'm talking about.

 

Cheers

James

[dhaas 32]

James,

 

All in good fun, and since the forum discussions are usually VERY specification oriented I was surprised myself by the practically identical specifications. I personally think it's the small BODY size of the Rebel XT that turns people off.....To me, that's a HUGE benefit!

 

My brother has a 20D. I like it and have shot with it. It's a nice camera, but a HUGE viewfinder difference? I wear glasses and I haven't had problems using my Rebel XT cameras to make photos.......

 

To each his own!

 

Off for a few ZZZZZZ...............Still can't get re-oriented from Vegas time....

 

David Haas

[Jolly 3]

I completely disagree with David too.

 

There is more than a bunch of advantages with the 20D:

http://www.bobatkins.com/photography/digit...20d.html#better

 

Even if some photographers would seldom touch shutter speed, I prefer two wheels. And two wheels are useful topside as well. And the second wheel is not bound to shutter speed. There is a lot more to adjust when shooting - topside as well.

 

20D battery life seems to be almost twice as long. Not practically identical if your camera is in an underwater housing for several dives.

 

Specifications on the viewfinders on the Canon 20D and Rebel XT:

 

Canon 20D:

 

95% view horizontal and vertical

.8X magnification

20mm eyepoint relief view

Canon Rebel XT

 

95% view horizontal and vertical

.8X magnification

21mm eyepoint relief view

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

You've got wrong data here David. 20D has 0.9 magnification, that’s more than 10% bigger. Just have a look thru both viewfinders side by side. You’ll notice it right away.

 

A manufacture claiming a viewfinder has become brighter on the same recording surface (sensor) is a polite marketing way to tell you it has been shrunk. Just take a slide projector and put it closer to the wall. Your image gets brighter but smaller too. Overall light input comes from the lens. Take a bright lens if you want a bright viewfinder.

 

By the way, the 20D autofocus operates in one stop lower light than the 350D autofocus (-0.5 EV vs +0/5 EV). Not bad at all.

 

If someone is going to invest a few thousand bucks - I think it is kind of risky to state that 20D is practically just a 350D with an extra bigger body attraction for people who need it. Not really nice to find out after spending the money …

 

Julian

[dhaas 32]

Amigos,

 

As Jolly got me thinking I went to 2 other sites (including Canon's own dSLR site) and did find at www.dpreview.com and Canon's site the 20D is listed as .9X versus the .8X on Steve's Digicams review intro. So I stand corrected! To each his own choice, though fo all the differences I stated earlier.....

 

One last thing on the Rebel XT battery, though....With DIGIC II processor this hasn't been a problem for me, getting at least 3/4 of a day of shooting (3 dives, minimum) before opening my housing to download photos anyway.

 

YMMV

 

David Haas