HD u/w stock library - what format?

[Nick Hope 151]

Still deliberating over choice of next camera, which raises the following question...

 

If you owned a Sony Z1, what format would you build an underwater stock library in so that it would have maximum appeal to TV/film/web/etc producers worldwide?

1080/50i?

1080/60i?

 

Likewise if you owned a Panasonic AG-HVX200 would you archive stock at:

1080/50i?

1080/60i?

1080/30p?

1080/24p?

720/60p?

Something else???

 

Nick

[Mike L 0]

I am very curious what responses are posted. I myself in preparing a stock HDV library and have been discussing this with my website designer.

[Nick Hope 151]

I'm guessing 1080/60i simply because it's the highest resolution/bandwidth and should therefore downsample better to other formats (?), but I have a feeling one of the Panasonic's progressive formats might be better (?). I really don't know. Drew raves about 720/60p but that would turn off 1080 producers.

 

Apparently Howard Hall's HD stock is mostly at 1080/24p, which would be best for film transfer ... but that might be because he didn't have much choice with his cameras??? Some say that film is dying out rapidly, which implies that 24p is not the way to go. It would be pretty rubbish for slo-mo compared to the higher frame rates.

[NickJ 2]

I would definitely keep my stock as hi res as possible, so 1080/something makes sense. What is your main market Europe/Asia or USA? - you could definitely go from /60i to 50i in post prod, but that would be a pain if you were having to do that all the time - and vice versa. If you really don't know, then 60i would retain more data of course. I don't have that worry as my A1P will only shoot 50i

 

BTW what formats will you edit in and output to? Drew was suggesting DVC Pro HD output in an adjacent thread. I'm still wondering what the best workflow is to get the best SD DVDs from HDV, maybe just edit in HDV and code in M2V to keep it simple. For HD DVDs I can burn HVDVD_TS DVDs on standard blank DVDs, but no one I know has a player that will read them (except on my Mac)!

 

BTW great website Nick - I see your clips are WMV, which tells me you doing at least some post in Windows. Apple's Final Cut Studio handles all the up-res down-res format conversions with relative ease. Not sure how well served you are in MS land on that .....

[Nick Hope 151]

Thanks for the kind words about the site Nick. I really need to put some new stuff up before too long.

 

Well so far I've licensed more SD PAL than SD NTSC. But I don't want to lessen my chances of licensing to the USA in the future, which may well turn out to be a bigger market for me. I wonder how well 1080/50i upsamples to 1080/60i? Not particularly well I guess.

 

I really don't know yet exactly what formats I'll edit in and output to once I have a new camera. I do my editing in Vegas on a PC. Vegas seems to be pretty well set up for HD already but I may need to beef up my computer a bit. To start with I'll still want to produce SD PAL and NTSC DVDs and for some projects would probably try putting WMV-HD on DVD to start with (like the Coral Reef Adventure DVD etc.) while Bluray/HD DVD sorts itself out. Plus I'll want to output to a whole variety of downloadable file formats for the web.

 

Any of the archive formats I'm talking about could be downsampled nicely for web delivery. It's really the widest broadcast, film, and "set-top" market that I'm aiming at when choosing a format for my stock.

[NickJ 2]

I understand the dilemma. I’m only just starting to understand all the options for HD myself, but a simple rule that I was given on LAFCPUG (http://www.lafcpug.org/phorum/list.php?f=1) is that long as your SOURCE is from the highest quality capture possible, (and for yer average diver that means using an HDV or a DVC Pro HD cam) then you can OUTPUT in just about anything that your target audience/buyers want. Just up-res or down-res at will. Obviously there are some potential data loss issues especially going up the chain, but unless you have the sponsors and team of wrestlers to handle your IMAX gear, then with ‘small’ footprint cameras in u/w housings you don’t have a lot of choice.

 

I’m too puny (and too cheap ) to even go FX1+housing, so I really only have a choice of one camera – the Sony A1. At least my post production set up allows me to experiment with just about every format known to video, so I have options there. I’m also only an obsessive-compulsive amateur, rather than someone trying to make a living out of this, so my mistakes are less important in the scheme of things.

 

Be interesting to hear what others think too ….

[larsdennert 0]

Nick what software are you using to burn HVDVD which is I assume the new software standard for HD content?

 

For downconversion, I've found that capturing in HDV and downconverting in software to DVD works best. I shoot for 7MBPS VBR and all quality settings to their highest. I think downconverting in the camera yields only 4:1:1 chroma since it has to comply with DV standard through the firewire vs 4:2:2 doing it in software. I'm speculating a bit here.

 

I do know that my HC1 outputs better video when I shoot in DV mode vs shooting in HDV mode AND using the iLink conversion. That has been from my limited observation on how it seems to letterbox when using the iLink Conv.

 

I shoot everything in HDV 60i. I have no other choices like the Z1. Isn't it easier to go back and forth to 24p from 30p than 24p to 25p? Do people just do frame dropping and doubling? ie double every 4th to go from 24 to 30? Drop every 5th to go from 30 to 24?

[NickJ 2]

Latest DVD Studio Pro will build HVDVD_TS folders for HD DVDs. I can't actually burn a high capacity HD DVD (or BluRay for that matter) as the burners aren't out yet, but I can burn the folders onto a standard blank DVD and this is then recognized by an HD DVD compatible player (eg Apple's DVD player on my Quad). My current home theatre DVD player just says 'unrecognizable disk' or something similar. I understand that the new HD DVD players should be backwards compatible with SD DVDs, and also HD DVD folders burned onto standard DVDs etc

 

Frame rate changes can be made in Final Cut Pro (and also Apple Compressor I think) but I've not needed to muck around with this much (only rarely when importing an NTSC clip into a PAL sequence etc). Only thing I can say with certainty is that every time you convert to another format or change frame rates, or codec etc, you are in for some major rendering time, and then encoding when you finally output, so make sure your CPUs and RAM are up to it!

[wagsy 0]

Hi Nick and guys.

 

I have the PAL FX1 and I found using Premiere Pro and Aspect HD I can encode the 1080 50i to a 60i straight from the time line and back to the camera as NTSC. Now the quality looks the same but it stutters abit. So I think with a bit of treaking we might be able to make 50i to 60i and back to the camera as NTSC with just a FX1 and HC1. Some how have to add some frames

 

I also just got my A1 camera today, and I will do some comparing of both cameras side by side in the next few days, but from what I have shot so far, the little A1 shoot nice and is very easy to run around with.

 

Wags

[Drew 0]

Hmmm all this flying around and I miss threads like these.

Archiving on tape is already in whatever you have as recorded material from your camera. When you capture, you can then uprez to a better format, say DVC Pro HD or some other less or uncompressed format. As for resolution, 1080 is the more popular format and can be downconverted to 720 or SD. I'd stay away from 24P because you'd have to do a pull down to get that (unless you are shooting with a HDCAM, but then you wouldn't be asking this question).

If you are asking what format you should start acquisition with, well that's trickier. The HVX200 allows for 1080P via firewire. Obviously P is better than i. As i/P, well depends on who you ask. A few UK post guys work with 50 and output to the other various formats, including 24P, Same for 4MC guys in NYC working with 60 who push back to 50.

If you talk to the Asian Nat Geo guys, I believe they will accept 1080i/50 in DVC Pro HD. Both DVC Pro HD and HDV will be upconverted anyhow. They probably will frown at HDV but if post is done properly to upconvert, well they will probably not mind.

You already have your archive format in the form of your acquisition camera. Make a copy of the tape (in the Pana's case, on HD out to a server).

I rave about 720P not because of the P but the 60fps, which for slo-mo is super! I'd uprez immediately.

[Nick Hope 151]

Paul have you got a housing for the A1 or is it just for surface stuff?

[Nick Hope 151]

Well yes Drew, I'm asking mainly about what format to start aquisition with, and also about how to archive it later. By archiving I mean building a random-access stock library, not backups.

 

In my present SD workflow I am used to capturing my tapes, going through the footage, editing, then archiving the best bits to hard disk, then re-recording over the tapes, and that's how I see myself continuing to work. I can't imagine keeping the original tapes as my stock library. There would be far too many and I'd probably never look at them again.

 

So am I right in thinking that the Z1 cannot natively shoot material that is acceptable to the big boys (BBC, Nat Geo, Discovery etc.) but that the HVX200 can? i.e. the Z1's HDV would need to be upconverted to DVC Pro HD or better and delivered on hard disk? I don't see DVC Pro HD on Vegas' list of output formats so how would I create that? Or am I missing the point here?

 

It seems a little strange that the producers would be so fussy because in the past the channels I've supplied (BBC News, MTV, History Channel, NDR etc.) have been like "Yeah yeah, just give us the 4:3 mini-DV tape, we'll handle the converting, etc.. We don't care that it's not DVCAM and we don't even need native 16:9. We'll handle it in post." I somehow feel they'd be the same about accepting HDV. I do however note your comments in other threads about HDV's drop-outs and admittedly I've never actually been hired for a BBC, Discovery or Nat Geo production. One can dream.

 

I kept 24p in the running because the HVX200 will do 1080/24p natively. No pulldown necessary. But I guess upsampling from that to suit a producer who wanted say 1080/60i would be worse than going in the other direction.

 

If I recall right you've orderd a HVX200 yourself? Have you decided what format you'll be shooting in general for material for your own archive?

 

Really the point of this thread is that I don't want tio buy a Z1 and find that splashing out more on a HVX200 would have given me many more opportunities to market my stuff.

 

Do you folks think the next generation (Z2 or whatever) will support 1080/60p?

 

Anyone else getting a headache?

 

Nick

[larsdennert 0]

NickJ you are the first I've talked to who has confirmed that the HV_DVDTS burns to a regular disk. Seems obvious but the confirmation is nice. Does it ask what format you want it encoded? IE MPEG2, MP4 or WMV? A DL 9gig disk should be plenty for personal use with these formats inside the HV container.

 

As far as HDV dropouts, I get very few and I don't see why the studios would be concerned about it. It is totatlly the videographer's problem. If he didn't get the shot because of a drop or because he didn't push record, it's not there to give the studio. Once you have the footage to offer them, that's what they get.

 

I'm off to dunk my HC1 in the morning and try out my new light and +4 diopter. Preliminary tests in the kitchen sink indicate that the +4 cuts the focal length roughly in half.

[Drew 0]

Nick

The HD world is a lot different than the old SD world. 2 different resolutions altogether and of course i/p.

What I do know is that entire programs shot in HDV is not accepted. They have to be upconverted. If you have the clip they need/want, I doubt they'd say no to even Hi8.

Shooting in 24P is great for broadcast and film transfer (although that's more in the realm of Indies than studio work). I'd personally shoot in 30P and do a pulldown.

As for your archival method, well I suggest you think about the fact that tape used over and over in HDV acquisition do have a bit more drop outs. Which is really BS as a format but that's the price you pay for entry level HD.

[Nick Hope 151]

Good point about the drop-outs but maybe HDV is more susceptible to dropped frames during capture too. Is it?

 

Which diopter did you get Lars? I absolutely love diving with my +4 diopter and a flat port during night dives (VX2K/Gates). I get my L&M halogens on the lowest setting and put black stockings over them as well so I can get right in close with the shrimps and stuff. I usually end up with something like F2.8. On the VX2K the depth of field is absolutely fine for macro, as is auto focus. The only time I would manual focus at night would be say a parrot fish lying in its cocoon.

 

I just use the Hoya +4 from their cheap set. I didn't see the point of splashing out on a Canon or Century multi-element diopter to reduce the distortion. It's not like we're videoing many straight edges underwater and I'm not sure it would fit in anyway. I guess with 16:9/HDV the distortion may be more of an issue though.

 

I wish I could do more day dives with the flat port & diopter but I usually either have to get some customer shots or I'm scared of missing a whale shark when it comes past. Could get a nice detail shot of its eye I suppose!

 

Anyway... back to the format...

 

Nick

[wagsy 0]

Hey this is great how we can all chat and work things out.

 

Bubblevision, I have no housing for the A1 but a quick side by side test with the FX1 reveals this.

 

The FX1 has alot wider FOV.

The FX1 seems to have better colour satuation.

THe FX1 seems to be abit sharper.

 

Now this is just first glimse but in the next few days I will put both cameras on a tripod each and set them up as close as I can and film the same scene and post the grabs. I'll also do a low light test with grabs.

 

The A1 is so much easier to run around with and love the XLR setup for sound and it still gives a stunning image. Not sure about the touch screen....fingerprints on it all the time.

 

I also managed to nail some macro footage of those hard to get Pokerdot Box Fish today.He was like 2 cm long...but with the macro #2 flip arm in the Phenom I was able to zoom right in tight. Might try a #4 next dive.

 

Also the MWB method I made works so good, I can get great colour now.

 

More soon

 

Wags

[Mike L 0]

I have been shooting the Z1 for almost a year underwater. The past few weeks Ive been doing some shooting with the HC1 and have been completely amazed by the quality of the footage. I recently shot both cameras in Hawaii and played the footage on a 42" HD...WOW for the HC1. Color was outstanding. Although not a replacement for my Z1....it sure is tempting to just carry around that little set up as opposed to the large Z1.

[wagsy 0]

We went out yesterday in the arvo again and filmed the baby turtles hatching with the A1.

 

The FOV is really different to the FX1, and one has to stand back more from the camera on full wide. It's harder to focus on manual, maybe becasue the thing is so small, but auto seems to be quicker than the FX1 locking onto to targets and the macro zoom is a bonus.

 

We put it on cinematone which gives it a very nice look indeed. Will do a side by side test today....stay tuned...

[Nick Hope 151]

Stop raving about the HC1/A1 you guys! You're doing my head in! How's a man supposed to make a purchase decision when all these viable alternatives keep cropping up?

 

Anyway let's do the HC1/A1 stuff in the HC1/A1 thread so we're not distracted from the stock format here.

 

Nick

[NickJ 2]

Lars - sorry for the late reply - I'm away from my Mac at the moment but I'm pretty sure Compressor encoded the HDV material into a .m2v file (MPEG2) for HD DVD purposes, definitely not MP4 (or WMV which Apple doesn't recognize). I imported the .m2v file into DVD Studio Pro, and had the option of creating SD or HD DVD output. Don't forget you can create HVDVD_TS (or VIDEO-TS) folders from rubbish too. The encoding and DVD folder building are separate functions ....

[larsdennert 0]

I'm using a +4 diopter. It's a 67mm Hoya multicoated. That's the size on the housing and they are mounted wet. Since the camera filter is 37mm I have enough glass on that filter to prevent edge distortions. A set of three was like $50. I took the ring from the +1 and glued it to my housing so I'd have somewhere to store the +4 while not in use. Thanks for the advice on the balancing on the other thread. Eventually I'll get all the variables under control. The VX has really good lowlight. I have to watch the gain here and there. How do you keep the camera steady? Just lots of practice? I'm using the +4 with full zoom.

 

I posted a reduced frame grab in another thread. I think this link will bring it up.

 

http://wetpixel.com/forums/index.php?act=A...pe=post&id=2344

 

Thanks NickJ I've ripped DVD footage and edited it before and it gets messy quick. MP4 and WMV are even worse and are basically deadend formats only good for viewing. I prefer WMV as it is easier (for me) to get good quality out of. Mostly an encoder issue. They are computationally intensive to render but half the space of MPEG2. Anyway, I'd say simple MPEG2 is the best archiving format considering it is A) compressed and B) editable.

 

I'm guessing you can create a 30minute HVDVD on a DVD5 using MPEG2?

 

Wagsy, as you noticed the HC1/A1 have a much narrower wide than most cameras. At least the A1 has an overscan display so you really see everything in the frame. The HC1 doesn't.

[Nick Hope 151]

How do you keep the camera steady? Just lots of practice? I'm using the +4 with full zoom.

Now there's a question!

 

Here are three choices:

 

1. Take a tripod with you. Fine for static stuff like nudibranches. Not much use for anything likely to move. Admittedly I've never done this.

 

2. Lean your camera on stuff. In general shooting macro I lean the camera and my body on whatever I can to get it steady. But unless the camera is actually pinned on at least 3 points, you're going to get slight wobbles. When I'm shooting macro I can often see the camera rocking from my own pulse!

 

3. If the camera is well trimmed (neutrally buoyant, centre of gravity above centre) and you haven't got much current then you can just try and hold it steady with one hand while the other steadies your body on a bit of rock or dead coral, but let your arm act like a big damper. In other words not really trying to hold the camera still but just trying to iron out the small wobbles.

 

It all depends on the situation. In any case you're likely to get wobbles and it's just the case of choosing the steadiest part of the footage during editing.

 

Nick

[MikeVeitch 0]

I saw someone who made a flexible tripod on the bottom of their camera with those flexible light arms and had it attached to the base somehow....

He kept them folded up under the camera and when he wanted to shoot he pulled them out and formed them to the bottom. Each section was probably two feet long.

 

Kinda cool i thought for macro