BTS Contest results

[BrantD 0]

I'd have to go with this assumption too, but I'm not going to appologise afterwards.

Boxer crabs are almost always found singularly and the dive guides go collect them and arrange them for the photographers on that sponge.

To state that they were pointed out by the diveguides as is, would be grossly misleading. To say there are witnesses too, frankly I'd rather believe the second coming was yesterday.

Manipulating wildlife is a big no-no supposingly in competitions and if this image is allowed to take the prize (in the wrong category) it shows that it's all lip service and really anything goes.

It just shows how inexperienced judges can be with regard to the natural habits of creatures. Just one of these latest phase creatures wit a cute persona.

So if you want your witnesses to purger themselves too, post their comments here.

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Realizing this is an open forum, and people can lower themselves to the slime on the bottom of the barrel, a commit like the one above shouldn't surprise me, but it does.

That said......the above commit has to be one of the most rude and ignorant post I have ever read. This falls under a troll post in my opinion, as they have attacked everyone they can, from the photographer, the dive-guides, the competition, the judges, and then to scrape the bottom of the barrel, you out and out start calling any witnesses lier's also.

 

Simply amazing the level some folks will lower themselves to!

[Rocha 0]

Alright, this is getting a bit too heated, so let me drop my $0.02. Alex raised the question that the crab wasn't in its usual habitat, and that's a fact. John said that the dive guides pointed him to the crabs and he didn't see anyone move the crabs, and that's a fact. So, let's leave it at that folks.

 

Congratulations again to the winners! John, your shot got honorable mention on the Scuba Diving contest too!

 

http://www.scubadiving.com/2006photocontest/

 

Luiz

[Alex_Mustard 0]

I wish I haddn't mentionned it. Alex

[echeng 0]

Luiz: nice summary. Alex: I'm glad you brought this up.

[Tio Loco 0]

At considerable risk to my reputation (just by posting over here ), I'll perjure myself, and come to John's defence. I was John's dive buddy (as was Fisheyedave) on the dive in question, and the only reason I don't have the same shot is that I was set up for wide angle. (In fact, I do have the shot, but the crabs are too small to see.)

 

Although I saw no manipulation of wildlife by the guides, I can testify that John did not move them or place them in any way.

 

Wow, I bet this doubled my post count here!

[yahsemtough 0]

Hey Richard,

 

You should pop by more often.

 

I don't think anyone has accused John personally of moving the crabs. I am 100% sure he personally did not. What people are saying above is that it is obvious they were moved. I'm not even sure if that violates a contest rule or not.

 

As you know, I dove with the same operator as John on the site with the Boxer crabs a week earlier. I can clearly say I saw the guides move the crabs for my dive. They searched the shallow rubble looking under rocks and then placed the Boxers on a brown sponge nearby. So I too can support John by stating he did not move the crabs as a fair and honest statement.

 

That said I am assuming BTS will have a second look at the judging in this category now as the shots are obviously placed incorrectly in this General category, as John has mentioned above (The Scuba Diving Contest has them placed Honourable Mention in macro).Scuba Diving Magazine Contest Honourable Mentions

 

Hopefully the thread can go back to focus on all those who placed. Congrats again

[Lionfish43 0]

I was at BTS this weekend and in the spot for John Gordon's first place in the General Category was a placard that said " disqualified for unethical manipulation of sea life." Personally, I don't feel that was right.

[cor 0]

That does seem quite harsh.

 

Cor

[yahsemtough 0]

I think all a contest needs to do is remove photos that violate rules. In some cases mistakes can be innocent/interpretation so that response does seem a little harsh. Heck, the two photos were clearly in the wrong category as they are macro shots, not wide angle or medium lens shots of marine environment.

 

Did they remove the macro winner (Dodi) that had placed second in LAUPS also? The rules stated that winners known before December were not eligible and LAUPS announced in mid-October. LAUPS Macro Winners

 

In the end I know these contests are a huge amount of work so all that are involved in running any contest should be commended.

[kdietz 0]

That does seem quite harsh.

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I agree with Cor and Todd......regardless if their decision was correct or not, that kind of statement and display is totally unappropriate IMHO.....if that was their decision, why not just move everyone up and go on with it?

 

Karl

[randapex 0]

Interesting move on the part of BTS. At the least, because of this action, people may consider a little more carefully what they submit in the future. And also, ask questions about what the dive guides are showing them.

 

Most competitions are following the guidelines developed by Epic. And after this strict interpretation, I wondered about my Bahama Shark photos that are entered in Epic's current photo comp. Since they were the result of "Animals being fed". But, I see Epic refined their rules on that.

 

Rand

[echeng 0]

Man. Harsh. Bad call on BTS' part...

[Kelpfish 15]

I agree with Rand in that it sends a stearn message. But as for the diver, I will say that MANY divers, if not most, are not marine biology saavy and when you go to a foreign country whose marine ecosystem is vastly different than their "home" dive sites (like Catalina Island for me) you really don't know what is natural or not unless you research every dang image with a skilled, knowledgeable diver or biologish in that foreign area. So it is evident that the gentleman who had that crab shot wasn't clear whether that shot was naturally occurring or not. He entered in good faith (I assume) and thus the image at the most should have been quietly removed/replaced and he should have simply been notified that the competition commitee (who also didn't know better) has learned that this is not naturally occurring and we have therefore eliminated your entry. They should explain to the entrant exactly what the violation was by someone who is an expert in that area of study. But that does place a burden to those who shoot but don't know better as to what they are shooting because they might need to seek knowledheable types (as IKE always says) to ensure that the image submissions are naturally occurring. Is that the direction we want to go? Personally, when I travel, I lean very heavily on the dive guides for information and I also bring a marine guide book (if it's small ) . Most resorts or boats have their own books too. Take advantage of that. I will say with great emphasis that if I knew these were solitary animals, I would have not sent in the image.

 

Joe

[Alex_Mustard 0]

I also think that the BTS judgement is a harsh one. Such decisions/checks should be made before results are made public - and once results are public then they should be final.

 

But I do think it is important to send out a non-harming subject message through books and competitions. I don't really have a problem with people taking these sorts of images for their own pleasure. In all honesty, the animals are only very rarely harmed. The problem is when these sorts of images are used in guide books or awarded in competitions - and thus encourage others to emulate them (guides and/or photographers), which multiplies the problem.

 

Alex

[segal3 0]

Did they remove the macro winner (Dodi) that had placed second in LAUPS also? The rules stated that winners known before December were not eligible and LAUPS announced in mid-October. LAUPS Macro Winners

 

 

This is more or less Dodi's style - to send in photos that have already won. You'd be even more surprised at some of the European contests he wins and then goes ahead and sends the same images to the States...

 

This behaviour is reinforced when contests in the U.S. decide not to check all previous winners (honestly, a Google search is not entirely difficult), and award an individual with a placing. I understand that running a contest is difficult, but an easier way to do this would be to wait until the 1st,2nd,3rd,HMx3+ had been chosen, and then start running through the entries to ensure eligibility.

 

I'd recommend emailing BTS and notifying them of the error/previous winner. They have the ability to revoke any honors and prizes post-contest as stated in Rule 9:

In the event that an award winning entry is later found to have violated any rule, it will be

disqualified, and officials of this competition reserve the right to recall prizes.

[MikeO 5]

I was at BTS this weekend and in the spot for John Gordon's first place in the General Category was a placard that said " disqualified for unethical manipulation of sea life." Personally, I don't feel that was right.

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Hmm, didn't notice that out front, but I am pretty sure the shot was still in the slide show during the "film festival" in Saturday night . . .

 

Mike

 

BTW, Jim Abernethy's alligator shot may not have gotten the biggest prize, but it did get the biggest reaction from the audience at the film festival . .

[Lionfish43 0]

I wasn't at the evening program so I can't speak to that but I was at the exhibit hall on Friday, Saturday and Sunday and the photo was not displayed. Where it would have been was a card that said read "disqualified due to unethical manipulation of sea life."

[randapex 0]

I know everybody here loves Jim Abernethy but how he can enter as an amateur and compete with his customers is beyond me...

 

Rand

[MikeO 5]

I wasn't at the evening program so I can't speak to that but I was at the exhibit hall on Friday, Saturday and Sunday and the photo was not displayed. Where it would have been was a card that said read "disqualified due to unethical manipulation of sea life."

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Sorry, didn't mean to imply you were mistaken. I believe you -- I was inside most of the time so I didn't really pay attention to the display out front at the exhibit hall. I was just pointing out that it was odd that it was still in the slide show having been removed out front. Having said that, the show appears to be a big beast to run and they rely on volunteers a lot so maybe it was just a glitch in the system. IOW, it wasn't the only thing I've noticed that was a bit odd!

 

Cheers,

 

Mike

[Tonym 0]

If you reference the book "Indo-Pacific CORAL REEF Field Guide" by  Dr Gerald R. Allen & Roger Steene on page 163 you will see a similar pair of boxer crabs together. I know that they were not placed together for this photo I believe paring is natural behavior.

 

Sincerely

John Gordon

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John,

 

I spent two weeks diving with one of these two esteemed crusty gentlemen and

I assure you that prior to taking their photo he regularly moved subjects without a second thought .

 

There were also others on that trip that observed the subject relocation project.

[Kelpfish 15]

Hi All,

 

I am writing this with my god damn temp tooth from a root canal coming out aqain within 2 days of having the same thing happen....BUT, moving and capturing and positioning subjects is all too common. Out of respect I will only say that many professionals do it, you just never know because we are awe inspired by their shots. I have said in previous posts that I have personally seen and heard first hand from the culprits themselves that manipulation occurrs so the shot can be captured. That can be for books, John, or for any other profit making median. If a two-boxer shot is in a book, is it scientifically correct? Maybe not and maybe. But like I have said again and again in this forum, some "pros" are great photographers....and some are great marketers....need I say more.

[Kelpfish 15]

Okay folks, shall I serve my ass on a plate? I have had some private correspondance and additional foresight into the matter of the boxer crab picture. This is not my feedback but I respect that of the garibaldi who messaged me this. So here goes:

 

While writing my material for an article article that goes out to dozens of UW

Photo Societies and scuba clubs for their newsletters, I was searching the

web for info on Boxer Crabs. I came across the Boxer crab discussion and saw the pics from John Gordon. Since I'm not on that forum, I

was wondering if anyone there offerred the fact that everyone on the boat

knew the crabs were moved? There was even a discussion on the boat about

that shot not being eligible for contests...was that mentioned?

 

Gordon also stretched the rules about industry professionals being

ineligible; a while back, he was a divemaster and photo pro on the Nekton.

 

Just brings a new perspective to this issue.

 

Joe

[Drew 0]

John,

 

I spent two weeks diving with one of these two esteemed crusty gentlemen and

I assure you that  prior to taking their photo he regularly moved subjects without a second thought .

 

There were also others on that trip that observed the subject relocation project.

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I'll definitely back that up. They are photographing for books so being "correct" is the least of their priorities. They don't claim it's natural, they just want ID or show photos. Now would their book win an award if one of the photographs was deemed unnaturally manipulated?

I've observed that boxer crabs stay under cover in the day and move about at night but still seeking cover. You don't see them running out in the open for obvious reasons. Also anyone who's been diving in Indonesia would know that dive guides will move things for photogs. It's their livelihood. It is what those mental rods are for, not to fend off attacking mantis shrimps. EG tapping on holes to bring mimics or wunderpus up and dig them out or sticking their hands and prods through muricella to find pygmy seahorses are what they have been encouraged to do for many years.

I remember at BTS a few years back, there was this presentation by a photographer who was talking about how he manipulated a frogfish to get the shot he wanted. And they had the rules of non-manipulation in the show!

Despite the hypocrisy, I like the fact the BTS managed to act on discovery of an infringement of a rule. It builds credibility for the contest and a stern warning to those who try. Doesn't mean they'll catch everyone or that people will stop trying, but it sets a nice precedent.

 

Joe,that's not exposing your behind, that's just called stirring!

[Tio Loco 0]

Okay folks, shall I serve my ass on a plate?  I have had some private correspondance and additional foresight into the matter of the boxer crab picture.  This is not my feedback but I respect that of the garibaldi who messaged me this.  So here goes:

 

While writing my material for an article article that goes out to dozens of UW

Photo Societies and scuba clubs for their newsletters, I was searching the

web for info on Boxer Crabs. I came across the Boxer crab discussion and saw the pics from John Gordon.  Since I'm not on that forum, I

was wondering if anyone there offerred the fact that everyone on the boat

knew the crabs were moved?  There was even a discussion on the boat about

that shot not being eligible for contests...was that mentioned?

 

...

 

 

With all due respect Joe, your source is full of it. I was there.

 

There were only three of us on the boat that day besides the guides, so it's not like there were conversations that I was not privvy to, and there was no conversation at all about the possibility of the crabs being moved. The possiblity of that happening never even occurred to us.

 

What you don't see with your eyes, don't witness with your mouth.  ~Jewish Proverb

[mreid 0]

Has anyone received notification about their prize? I haven't.