Do Ikelites fog?

[synthetic 4]

I'm trying to choose between Ikelite and Aquatica for my 5D. Someone just told me that Ikelite housings require desicant to keep them from fogging in cold water (California). I'm currently using an Aquatica (metal) housing, and he told me that metal doesn't fog as easily as plastic.

 

Of course, he was trying to sell me a camera housing at the time...

[richorn 0]

Since you already have an Aquatica house for your 300D, I would think it would make sense to get the Aquatica 5D, as all of your ports, gears, and extenders would carry over. You only need the housing itself.

 

Then again, since you went full frame, you are going to need all new lenses! ;-)

 

 

btw, I don't think fogging is a major issue with the Ike locally. I know a lot of guys shooting it, and none have complained. Matter of fact, most love thier Ike housings.

[LChan 0]

I dive with my Ike in cold water. I have never had a fogging issue.

 

my understanding is that fogging (condensation) would occur if there was a fairly strong heat source inside the housing and that the heated air cools down quickly and causes fogging when it touches a cold housing.

 

The fogging also increases if the surface of your item (car window, housing) is dirty. The dirt, dust gives a surface for the condensation to form, thus a dirty car window is much more likely to fog compared to a clean one.

 

I don't know why one housing versus another would fog since the inner parts are the same.

 

With a dSLR, there is no huge heat source, not like the digicams with the flash.

[anthp 0]

Larry's experience is the same as mine. I use a D200 in an Ike housing in cold water 8C (46F) with no problems. I have heard people having issues with small digicams and alu and acrylic housings, but never with dSLRs.

[RogerC 4]

fogging occurs because the air in the housing starts at a certain temp, with a certain amount of moisture, and then in the water, the temp drops, and there is now too much moisture to remain in the vapor, and the moisture condenses. In other words, the air in the housing cools to below its dew point.

 

Lexan is a better insulator than metal, so it may stay warm a little longer so you may be better off. Or, in a lexan housing, you may find that your port is what is cooling off most rapidly, so you only get dew on your port, where you least want it.

 

Bottom line is, in any housing, under the right conditions, you will get condensation. You don't want condensation around your camera, it can ruin more than a picture. So always use dessicant, and buy any housing you like.

[synthetic 4]

Since you already have an Aquatica house for your 300D, I would think it would make sense to get the Aquatica 5D, as all of your ports, gears, and extenders would carry over.  You only need the housing itself.

 

Hah, you make it sound like I save money going with the Aquatica housing and keeping my ports. Far from it -- the Aquatica housing by itself is $900 more than the Ikelite housing, ports, ball joints, sync cords and everything else I need.

 

I had always thought that the extra air volume in DSLR housings acted as a buffer that kept them from fogging. I figured I would have heard something about Ikes fogging by now. Thanks for your input so far.

[jnsgonda 0]

Hello,

 

I just had my D200 and Ikelite housing out for the first time at Catalina and Santa Barbara islands over July 3rd and 4th - I didn't have any fogging issues. The bottom temps at Santa Barbara were in the low 50s. Prior to this, I shot an S2 in an Ike housing and again didn't have any fogging problems ever in So. Cal.

 

That being said, a diver on the trip was shooting a 5D in an Ike housing and had plenty of fogging. I'm not sure why.

 

btw, loved the Ike housing for the D200

 

John

[synthetic 4]

Did you or the other diver open the housing during the day to change batteries/lenses/etc? Were you using dessicant in the housing? Thanks again.

[jnsgonda 0]

I opened up the housing after almost every dive - still no problems. And that's after 6 one hour dives on Monday and 3 more dives on Tuesday. The other guy was doing the same. I'm really not sure what the difference was. btw, I wasn't using any desicants.

[JimG 26]

Ikelite SLR housings can fog but it is easy to avoid the problem. I used Ike for 20 years usually in very cold water (North Sea) and it occurred on bright sunny days early in the season when the water was about 5/6C. The problem arose because the camera rig got stowed somewhere in the boat that caught the sun. Ten minutes into the dive and fog settled inside the port. My own stupid fault and I always tried thereafter to cover the housing with a wet towel or some such thing. No problem when you do that.

Jim Greenfield

[ikelite 0]

Compare iced tea in an aluminum cup to iced tea in a plastic cup and you can see which has moisture on the outside of the cup.

 

Condensation can be the result of a leak so small that it is difficult to see, but moisture is required to form condensation. All of the push buttons add even more possibilities, but done correctly they have been very trouble free.

 

Any Ikelite housing with unexplained condensation problem should be sent directly to Ikelite............

[JackConnick 76]

I've used two different Ike P&S housings for a couple of years in widely varying circumstances, but my home waters are Puget sound which is quite balmy (and so are the divers here...) at 43-55F. I have used my housing in Mexico and Indonesia for long abusive trips and never had a problem.

I had fogging only one time, and as Ike said above, I believe I got a few drops of water into the housing whilst changing cards.

I do use a couple of small desiccant packs as insurance.

 

But I strongly endorse Ike housings for cold water use.

 

Jack

[drsteve 6]

My solution to the fogging problem is to only load the camera into the housing in the air conditioned hotel room and to always use dessicant. The air conditioning dehumidifys the air so there is less moisture in the housing to start with. Combine this with a big memory card so that you don't have to open the housing until the end of the day. I just bought an 8Gb card for this purpose. I HATE opening the housing on a boat. I don't like to do it even to change lenses. Even if you are super careful it is way too easy to get a drop of salt water inside. Electronics and salt water do not mix! Some pro friends of time say that when they are in the tropics, the camera lives in the housing with dessicant because even the air humidity can wreck havoc on the electronics. Of course if you want to shoot land images you have to be very careful to let the camera warm up when you take it out of the hotel room before you expose it to the amibient air or you will condense on the lens (or worse on the internal electronics).

[jcclink 8]

For condensation to form there must be a sufficient temperature differential between the inside of the housing and the ambient water. And there must be some water vapor in the housing. Aluminum is a much better conductor of heat than plastic, & will therefore reach equilibrium with seawater much quicker than plastic when comparing housing materials. If the housing & the ocean maintain the same temperature (more or less) condensation will not occur. P&S plastic housings will develope condensation if the flash is used alot because the heat buildup from the flash cannot be dissipated to the water quickly enough to maintain equilibrium. Use the silicone gel packs. (Also depends on the amount of free space in the housing - more space less of a problem.) I would rather open my housing in a room close to ocean temp than a freezing A/C room. A/C might reduce the amount of water vapor in the air but it won't get all of it. You never know how efficient your A/C is, especially overseas in very humid climates. Of course I have an aluminum housing & no internal flash going off, so its basically a non-problem.

[synthetic 4]

I usually drop my camera into a dunk tank before diving, both to test for leaks (bubbles) and to acclimate the temperature. I also usually switch lenses on the boat during the day. I guess I'll just have to wait and see – I'm not hearing enough claims of fogging problems to think it's a serious issue with ABS housings.

[RogerC 4]

The solution to the fogging problem is to use desiccant. Even if you aren't getting fog, you are keeping your camera in a very humid environment, and long term, that can lead to trouble. And sooner or later, you may hit conditions that will cause fog.

 

All that's really going on with fogging is, the air temp in your housing is dropping to the dew point. All the data I found on dew point uses big volumes (cubic meters), so let's say your housing is for an imax camera and happens to have exactly 1 cubic meter of volume inside, 1 cubic meter of air. Let's forget about the camera for now, and just talk about an empty housing with 1 cubic meter of air in it.

 

Let's say the air in the housing is absolutely dry. There is nothing in the housing but oxygen and nitrogen, no water, 0% humidity. Let's say the temp in the housing is is 25C or 77°F. At that temp, one cubic meter of air can hold 23 grams of water, which is 23cc's of water (that's cubic centimeters, or about 1.55 tablespoons or .77 fluid ounces, and if you're like me, that's enough math to make you want a pint).

 

OK, so you put your 23ccs of water in the housing, and wait a bit, and it all evaporates, and now the air in your housing is at 100% humidity, and it's still at a temp of 25C or 77°F (hey, geeks, please ignore that we've squeezed 1.000023 cubic meters into a 1 cubic meter housing and changed the pressure, and while were at it, let's ignore the change in temp due to the energy of vaporization, mmmkay?)

 

You go out of the room, to somewhere warmer. Now the air in the housing gets warmer, so can hold more moisture. As the temp of the air goes up, the relative humidity goes down. If there was a humidity gauge in there, you'd see the needle drop. Get the temp up to 30C or 86°F, and the air can hold 30.4 grams of water, and the humidity in there is only around 74%. Get it hotter, and it can hold even more moisture.

 

And now you go diving. Finally.

 

So what happens when anything on the inside of your housing hits a temperature lower than 25C or 77°F? You can't have more than 100% humidity. You hit the dew point. Some of the water condenses out. You get fog. The needle on the humidity gauge has hit 100 and tried to cross it.

 

If you have a metal housing, maybe that fog occurs on the metal and you never get condensation on your port. If you have a lexan housing, maybe it occurs on a metal push-button, since the button will cool off faster than the housing wall. Or maybe your camera runs hot, and as long as you keep taking pictures, you can keep your housing temp up over 77 degrees, and you won't get fog.

 

Or maybe, for whatever reason, your lens port cools off first, and you get fog where you least want it.

 

There are two ways to avoid it: keep your housing's temperature up, or reduce the amount of water vapor in your housing. My wife uses the first method, she only dives in warm water. I use the second method: I use dessicant.

 

Many people also use the second method by only opening their housing in an air conditioned room, with the idea that if you are starting with air at 80% humidity at 70°F, you won't get condensation until you get into water that's down in the 60's, so in the tropics you're just fine. Right? Yeah, well, usually, but why mess with it? why not use some desiccant? You never know when you're going to start out with a bit more humidity and hit a thermocline. But is this really a good idea? if your housing is just a few degrees away from hitting the dew point, that means the humidity in your housing is very high. How happy is your camera in an environment with a 90% humidity?

 

So if you get fog in your housing, you know that one of two things has happened: the temp has dropped below the dew point, or you got more water in your housing. Those are the only two reasons fog can happen. Those are the only two reasons. Really. Those are the only two things that can cause the needle on the humidity gauge to move.

 

Whatever temperature your housing is at on the surface after you close it does not matter. Under a towel, in the sun, it doesn't matter. How can it? There is still only 23cc's water in the housing, and it won't condense until the housing hits 76 degrees. It doesn't matter if the housing has been sitting at 80 in the shade or 800 in the sun. The air in the housing doesn't have a memory. It has 23cc's of water, and as long as you're above 77 degrees, no condensation will occur. It does not matter what the housing is made of. All that matters is the temperature and water content. That's it.

 

Now here comes the fun.

 

Let's take the housing and put a camera in it, and leave it in the sun before a dive. Regardless of everything I've said up above, we all know it's much more likely to fog. We've all seen it.

 

How can this be? How can it fog just because it got hot? How can it fog at a temperature higher than 77 degrees? It cannot. If there is only 23ccs of water in there, no fog can occur if the temp is above 77. It just plain can't. In fact, up above, we said that at higher temps, humidity % is lower. The needle on the humidity gauge drops as temp goes up. It should be less likely to fog. It should not fog.

 

But it does.

 

The needle on the humidity gauge has gone up, not down.

 

There must be more than 23cc's of water in the housing.

 

It must have come from the camera.

 

Here's what I think is going on, kids. Your camera has moisture in it from spending so much time in humid environments. And that time in the sun is getting your camera hot, getting that moisture moving, and it gets out in the housing where it can cause trouble.

 

I have two examples to support the theory.

 

The first is my dive computer. If I leave it in the sun, it fogs. It's sealed. No moisture is coming and going out of the housing. But when I leave it in the sun, the guts of the computer get up over a hundred degrees or so, hot enough to vaporize so much moisture from the guts of the computer that the humidity in there is so high that it condenses out on the cooler front window of the computer. There is so much moisture in my computer that the dew point in there is up in the 80's. When I take it out of the sun, the travels back to whatever other part of the computer is coolest and the window eventually clears up. It's not a happy computer.

 

The second example I have is my original digital camera. It got so much moisture in it that it started fogging on its own, out of the housing, just out on land. I tried everything to get it to clear, and it never did. I tried leaving it out with every door open, no luck. Over years and years of use in humid environments, the moisture had migrated into the lens barrel, which is pretty well sealed, and it wasn't coming out quickly.

 

here's a picture from that camera.

 

 

This camera was not in a housing, and the front lens was clean. The fog was in the guts of the lens. Kids, use desiccant. You are more likely to fog in cold water, you are more likely to fog when you assemble your housing in warm air with high humidity, you are more likely to fog in a housing made of a material that cools faster. But even if you are not fogging, why do you want your camera in a housing with high humidity? Use desiccant.

[jcclink 8]

Condensation requires a cold surface for water vapor to condense on, as in the example of ice tea in an aluminum cup. Since aluminum is a good heat conductor it provides the cold surface. Water vapor in the surrounding air condenses on the cup's surface. Plastic on the other hand is not a good conductor of heat. A plastic housing will retain heat better than an aluminum housing. This is especially important if the on-board camera strobe fires each time, thus generating heat which cannot dissipate fast enough. Condensation is more likely to occur since a sufficiently cold surface (usually the lens port) is created. Condensation can take place in warm or cold water. My Tetra 5050 had the problem in warm water if I rapidly took too many pictures (internal flash fired each time). No sufficiently cold surface no condensation. Optimum conditions are with housing temp equal to water temp. This state of equilibrium is more easily maintained with aluminum vs plastic. To be safe use your silica gel packs. Working in an A/C room may or may not make much difference. I tend to be more concerned about debris being blown around when I'm working on my rig than a cool room. Who really knows how efficient the A/C is

[RogerC 4]

cutting and snipping jcclink's post....

 

This is especially important if the on-board camera strobe fires each time, thus generating heat which cannot dissipate fast enough. Condensation is more likely to occur since a sufficiently cold surface (usually the lens port) is created.

 

My Tetra 5050 had the problem in warm water if I rapidly took too many pictures (internal flash fired each time).

 

No sufficiently cold surface no condensation.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I agree with that last point, but the first two bother me.

 

Condensation occurs when relative humidity rises to 100%.

 

Relative humidity can go up because the air temp has dropped, or because the water content of the air has increased.

 

In a housing, water content better not be going up.

 

So we're only worried about temperature changes.

 

When temperature goes up, due to a housing being in the sun or an internal strobe firing, relative humidity should be going down. But temperature is going up, and humidity is going up. That's nuts. That can't be.

 

So what the heck is going on?

 

Same as in my longer post: my theory is that your camera has spent so much time in humid environments, that there is moisture in it. When you put it in the sun, the camera in the housing gets up to, say, 120 degrees, and that moisture goes into the air in the housing. And now the wall of the housing is only 85 or 90 (since it's in contact with the cooler air, even though it is in the sun), and you get condensation on the housing wall.

 

Better to use desiccant. Better to never run the risk of a fog, better to never get moisture into your camera.

[vkalia 1]

Condensation occurs when relative humidity rises to 100%.

 

True.

 

But when you have a cold surface coming in contact with a warm layer of air, heat gets transferred from the warmer air to the cooler surface till the temperatures equalize. Both the air as well as the condensed water lose heat, and this gives rise to condensation.

 

That is why taking a cold bottle out of the fridge causes condensation on the outside - even though the relative humidity of the air in a room hasnt changed.

 

In the case of heat generated by a flash - the greater the thermal coefficient of the housing material, the more likely it is to cause condensation, as more heat is lost per degree of temperature increase in the housing.

 

Vandit

[RogerC 4]

First, I'm sorry if any of my posts came off strong. If they did, I just didn't spend enough time writing them, I wasn't trying to be harsh to anyone, especially jcclink, I felt bad about how I wrote that last post.

 

But here I go again... ;-)

 

But when you have a cold surface coming in contact with a warm layer of air, heat gets transferred from the warmer air to the cooler surface till the temperatures equalize.  Both the air as well as the condensed water lose heat, and this gives rise to condensation.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I'd put it a different way. It's not equalization that's causing condensation. It's that the air immediately around the cold surface is cooling below it's dew point, the air in that local pocket has greater than 100% humidity.

 

That is why taking a cold bottle out of the fridge causes condensation on the outside - even though the relative humidity of the air in a room hasnt changed.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I tihnk it has changed, but only in the pocket of air right around the cold surface.

 

In the case of heat generated by a flash - the greater the thermal coefficient of the housing material, the more likely it is to cause condensation, as more heat is lost per degree of temperature increase in the housing. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

you lost me there... I think you are saying that if the housing is a good insulator, you'll get a larger thermal gradient, and then you are more likely to get condensation?

 

Take a look at any of these:

http://weathersavvy.com/Q-dew_point1.html

http://www.usatoday.com/weather/wrelhum.htm

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase...tic/relhum.html

 

 

I still say (and this is pretty subtle and I'm probably going to give up) that you can't get condensation when temp is going up, unless somehow moisture content is also going up, so the rise in temp must be baking out moisture trapped in the camera from previous dives.

[vkalia 1]

I'd put it a different way. It's not equalization that's causing condensation. It's that the air immediately around the cold surface is cooling below it's dew point, the air in that local pocket has greater than 100% humidity.

 

We are saying the same thing. The air in the local pocket has greater than 100% humidity *because* of the equalization.

 

I tihnk it has changed, but only in the pocket of air right around the cold surface.

 

Yep, we are saying the same thing.

 

you lost me there... I think you are saying that if the housing is a good insulator, you'll get a larger thermal gradient, and then you are more likely to get condensation?

 

Assuming there is an X degree temperature differential between the air inside the housing, and the housing itself, then an object with a greater thermal coefficient is going to require more heat transfer for the temperatures to equalize. That is a pretty basic physics statement that we can both agree on.

 

FWIW, I also agree with your general assertion that *all other factors remaining unchanged*, raising the temperature of the air inside and then cooling it again should not cause condensation.

 

However, theory and fact do differ in this case. I can vouch for my S70 housing fogging up after I've taken a few shots with the camera and onboard flash - and this is warm waters where the temperature difference between the water and the air is only a handful of degrees (in fact, when I prepare the housing, the air temperature is LESS than the water temperature when I am diving).

 

As such, I am not sure whether or not all other factors do remain unchanged. Due to convection and radiation, all the air particles are heating up due to the flash; however, heat loss is primarily due to conduction and limited to the air pocket that is touching the surface of the housing.

 

If this is so, not only would the air pocket touching the housing surface lose more heat, but also the moisture particles in that air pocket (I dont remember off-hand my college physics, but I suspect that cooler water particles may have a greater propensity to coalesce into droplets... although even if that isnt the case, the argument still holds).

 

So the heat gain and heat loss functions are not symmetrical... which would explain the inconsistency.

 

Anyway, this is my theory.

 

Vandit

[RogerC 4]

However, theory and fact do differ in this case.  I can vouch for my S70 housing fogging up after I've taken a few shots with the camera and onboard flash - and this is warm waters where the temperature difference between the water and the air is only a handful of degrees (in fact, when I prepare the housing, the air temperature is LESS than the water temperature when I am diving).

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

In that case, there should be no way your camera can fog. No way. If temp only goes up, humidity can only go down...if moisture content remains the same. I don't think it does, I think moisture content goes up because the added heat frees moisture that was in your camera.

 

As such, I am not sure whether or not all other factors do remain unchanged.  Due to convection and radiation, all the air particles are heating up due to the flash; however, heat loss is primarily due to conduction and limited to the air pocket that is touching the surface of the housing. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I think heat loss doesn't matter, as long as you stay above the dew point. And you are above the dew point, you started in a colder room with no condensation. So I think a factor is changing: moisture content is rising.

 

If this is so, not only would the air pocket touching the housing surface lose more heat, but also the moisture particles in that air pocket (I dont remember off-hand my college physics, but I suspect that cooler water particles may have a greater propensity to coalesce into droplets... although even if that isnt the case, the argument still holds).

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

You are right, a cooler air/water mixture is more likely to coalesce, or condense... if the mixture cools to the dew point temp.

 

So the heat gain and heat loss functions are not symmetrical... which would explain the inconsistency. 

 

Anyway, this is my theory.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Ok, I understand what you are saying... but still disagree. I still think the inconsistency is you are adding moisture by distilling water out of your camera by heating it.

 

think anyone but us is left reading this thread? I've enjoyed it.

[richorn 0]

define "us".

[vkalia 1]

In that case, there should be no way your camera can fog. No way.

 

Heh, I wish you'd tell it that

 

Ok, I understand what you are saying... but still disagree. I still think the inconsistency is you are adding moisture by distilling water out of your camera by heating it.

 

That is also a possibility. I have to admit, I dont remember enough to be categorically sure one way or the other.

 

I'll email a friend who is a theoretical physicist (with disturbing fantasies about beating up Stephen Hawking, whom he calls a hack), and ask him what the deal is.

 

think anyone but us is left reading this thread? I've enjoyed it.

 

You mean we didnt impress the chicks? Oh hell. Back to the drawing board. And yes, it has been enjoyable, thank you for the discussion and safe diving to you.

 

Regards,

Vandit

[RogerC 4]

if you don't trust theorists, we can test this. Take your housing, with no camera, and leave it in the sun. If you're right, it will fog. If I'm right, it won't. Now do it with your camera in there. If I'm right, and there is enough moisture in your camera, and conditions are right (I'm not weaseling, those ifs are real), it will fog. if I do it, it won't fog, my camera is dry, I always use healthy desicant, with an indicator strip so I know it's good.

 

Let me give you another example. My local water is low 50's. As I decend and my camera and housing are cooling, I get condensation on the port, if I have a lot of moisture in the housing. As I ascend, the camera is the slowest thing to warm up. Parts of the camera, internally, will be at 50 for quite a while: the batteries, sealed parts of the lens, metal frame, any bigger chunks that are slow to warm. So I get condensation inside the camera, where I can't see it. The camera drys out slowly over time, but if I make another dive too soon, there is moisture in there that can be distilled out.

 

Now, your water is hopefully not 50 degrees. But the cycle still happens. There is a time when your camera is the coldest thing in the housing, or even cold after you take it out of the housing, and your camera is still grabbing some moisture. Not as much as mine would, but some.

 

And then that moisture is there to distill out later when you heat the camera up.

 

So use desiccant to grab any free moisture, and keep the water out of your camera.