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Steve Douglas

Tipping is in the culture

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"wanker"

 

A person who thinks they always deserve a tip for doing a job they are actually paid to do ... :) Just kidding folks

 

I think tipping can get out of hand (excuse the pun) do we need to tip everybody... Checkout lady/man at the local store, cinema attendant, barman/woman, milkperson, farmer who supplies the shop with your tomatoes!!??? the list goes on and on... They all do a job and service we need... Lets start paying everyone 10/15/20 percent...

 

Dive safe

 

DeanB

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People,

Please keep on topic. There is another thread where the Dolphin Dream vs JASA debate is ongoing, let's not convolute this thread any further.

I dont Drew, it was just an example and one which is highlighted in recent posts, where a premium rate has been charged, surely if Jim charges such a high rate he should pay his staff a high rate also?

How do you know he doesn't pay them well? The expertise of his crew comes from training and experience. I seriously doubt they are getting minimum wage. Skilled experts cost more. It's the same for going to a haute cuisine restaurant and getting much better service/atmosphere/expert advice (eg. Sommeliers etc)/better ingredients, than a street hawker. A higher wage/tip is expected for higher skilled workers.

In the dive industry, it's the same thing. A DM guide who is an excellent spotter should technically demand a better salary than someone who merely makes sure the people aren't drowning and get back on the boat. About the comment regarding paying a DM more than a local doctor, coming from places where a snot-nosed 26 year old who steals his friend's idea to start a company that's worth $50billion, or where someone, by virtue of being born from a certain family, gets a huge state allowance while normal citizens are way below the poverty line, I think it's pretty tough to defend that line of thought on further analysis.

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errr Drew! The tipping subject originally changed into the tipping one , and was diverted here, so the flavour was still there as both were discussed together there, sorry.....us English and tips eh, bac on topic....we should never be remnded to tip, as said if a service is served more than well, then tips will be given...well in my case anyway, if I'm reminded to tip then I get offended, maybe we should start another thread...can we not be reminded to tip then your tip might have been even higher.

TIPS ironacally was invented by an Englishman :), and actually given before or during service "To Insure Prompt Service" something like that anyway, cant remeber where I heard it, not off mr Google either

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I was just wondering with all this expert knowledge of what that dive industry pays for a deck hand on a dive boat in the US for a US passport carrying person, how many of you have worked on one???

 

Do you think that we have medical ?

retirement?

paid vacation ?

profit sharing ?

Do you think we get a christmas bonus ?

Do you think we are covered when we have to go in the water to do a rescue cuz you have been drinking or have been hand feeding the sharks or just diving over your head and being stupid?

 

What you pay for on a dive trip is...

Transportation (on a sea worthy ship with a licensed capt.) and accommodations (hot food, clean bathrooms, ect,ect) Note: we are not responsible for the weather of if WILD ANIMALS do not appear on time.

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But don't you live the life of Riley in a tropical setting and get paid an executive salary? All the beer you can drink and an endless supply of dive groupie chicks trying to score with the Big Kahuna? And don't forget the tan and the intellectual conversation you get to share with your guests! :)

 

Maybe you should be tipping the guests?

 

Mike

 

 

 

I was just wondering with all this expert knowledge of what that dive industry pays for a deck hand on a dive boat in the US for a US passport carrying person, how many of you have worked on one???

 

Do you think that we have medical ?

retirement?

paid vacation ?

profit sharing ?

Do you think we get a christmas bonus ?

Do you think we are covered when we have to go in the water to do a rescue cuz you have been drinking or have been hand feeding the sharks or just diving over your head and being stupid?

 

What you pay for on a dive trip is...

Transportation (on a sea worthy ship with a licensed capt.) and accommodations (hot food, clean bathrooms, ect,ect) Note: we are not responsible for the weather of if WILD ANIMALS do not appear on time.

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But don't you live the life of Riley in a tropical setting and get paid an executive salary? All the beer you can drink and an endless supply of dive groupie chicks trying to score with the Big Kahuna? And don't forget the tan and the intellectual conversation you get to share with your guests! :)

 

Maybe you should be tipping the guests?

 

Mike

 

Here is your tip......Island girl in the 5th.........

Edited by bigkahunadiver

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Now now mates, let's chill....

 

Tips being discussed are of a world view and the US is one of the most expensive places to live. You guys that work here have a harder time of it because let's face it, having a roof over your head and a bowl of soup costs 10+ times or more than a dive guide in the Indo Pacific, Red Sea or Caribbean. I think this is why we in the US are so generous when tipping. Things like medical in most of the world are covered yet here in the States we are expected to pay our way (don't get me started, our system sucks!). Anyway, tipping is the topic and my 2 cents is that it is your choice as a paying client to tip what you feel is appropriate for service rendered. I have been plenty of places where a "guilt trip" is put on us with a percentage of the trip cost being suggested as proper tip. I give for the most part to the folks that earned/deserve it and always something for the folks behind the scenes that keep the ship afloat.

 

Cheers

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I should add that one of my professional actor/waiter friends reminded me a few weeks ago that the Fair Labor Act in the US allows workers who receive more than $20 a week in tips to be paid LESS than minimal wage. Fortunately for him, he's in CA which doesn't allow this wage penalty but in NY where he worked before, his employer, a higher end restaurant, legally retained parts of the minimum wage for the bus boy staff because they were getting more than $20 from their split of the tips from waiters and Maitre D'.

Tipping is tied to the largesse and income of the client, the employers who want to keep costs down for maximum profit and the local culture. It's not so easy to just say 20%.

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At least in the US, like Drew says, tipping is so vigorously defended by those depending on it, because their employees have found ways to have laws enacted that allow them to pay way below minimum wage. Instead, those employers depend on their customers to actually pay their employees salaries. Devious.

 

I mean, bigkahuna, dont you think you should get medical, and paid vacation, and a bonus? Instead you now have to get angry at people that dont tip, while those that feel forced to tip aren't happy either. Ive never understood these tipping dynamics, I see only negatives, except for employers.

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Wow, i have just stumbled onto this post & read the whole thing! Amazing opinions here.

 

So i thought i would add my view to keep the post alive!

 

Coming from australia, we definately do not have a tipping culture & to be honest, if i was asked for a tip i would be highly offended & just wouldn't give one & i would never be back either. I can't believe that these guys are expecting a tip for doing the job that they are paid for, which by the way i would already be paying them there wages as a CLIENT & not a guest! It is not my problem if you are not happy with your work conditions! Change them if you don't like them.

 

At the end of the day you are being paid for a customer service job & if you don't do your job well then you should be sacked, alternatively, if you do it well you should be rewarded by your employer. A tip is a tip & i would never supplement someones wages as seems to be the expectation here.

 

The service would have to be stellar & well above what is commonly expected in order to recieve a tip & even then it would be a tip, say $50-$100 for both my wife & I.

 

I think the best tip i could give someone is my return business & word of mouth. I have now been to fiji 4 times & dived with the same operator on every occasion as the service is exactly what it should be, smiles, a great crew who are friendly, good pricing & safety is paramount. These guys have never even mentioned the word tip & i have never offered one either. I like to think that our 4 trips there & the fact that i am now organising another trip next year with a group of friends is better than a tip for them. This way i know that everyone is getting something out of my money & the dive operators actually put money back into several villages which is a big plus for me.

 

So for all you guys who think you are owed a tip just because you are working, think again. If i like you i may come back & therefor keep you in a job longterm. Maybe you should appreciate what you have & not what you don't have.

 

Cheers Pete.

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Do I get an award for creating the longest running post in Wetpixel history? Still the post that will not die. :)

Steve

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Yea Steve - I still read it for laughs!

 

There is probably a PHD thesis in here someplace.....

 

:)

 

Paul C

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Hey steve, I'm just trying to keep the dream alive mate!

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Don't get me started you bunch of cheap ass W*#+@$!...... :)

 

Just kidding girls...don't get your panties in wad !!

 

PEACE!

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Wow, i have just stumbled onto this post & read the whole thing! Amazing opinions here.

 

So i thought i would add my view to keep the post alive!

 

Coming from australia, we definately do not have a tipping culture & to be honest, if i was asked for a tip i would be highly offended & just wouldn't give one & i would never be back either. I can't believe that these guys are expecting a tip for doing the job that they are paid for, which by the way i would already be paying them there wages as a CLIENT & not a guest! It is not my problem if you are not happy with your work conditions! Change them if you don't like them.

 

At the end of the day you are being paid for a customer service job & if you don't do your job well then you should be sacked, alternatively, if you do it well you should be rewarded by your employer. A tip is a tip & i would never supplement someones wages as seems to be the expectation here.

 

The service would have to be stellar & well above what is commonly expected in order to recieve a tip & even then it would be a tip, say $50-$100 for both my wife & I.

 

I think the best tip i could give someone is my return business & word of mouth. I have now been to fiji 4 times & dived with the same operator on every occasion as the service is exactly what it should be, smiles, a great crew who are friendly, good pricing & safety is paramount. These guys have never even mentioned the word tip & i have never offered one either. I like to think that our 4 trips there & the fact that i am now organising another trip next year with a group of friends is better than a tip for them. This way i know that everyone is getting something out of my money & the dive operators actually put money back into several villages which is a big plus for me.

 

So for all you guys who think you are owed a tip just because you are working, think again. If i like you i may come back & therefor keep you in a job longterm. Maybe you should appreciate what you have & not what you don't have.

 

Cheers Pete.

 

What a great way to think. A returning customer is the best tip a business could ever wish for.

 

Stew

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Leading a group to the Cocos this coming week. One gal from S. Africa, two from England, one from LA, one from Arizona, one from Palau, about 9 from N.Carolina, me, a New Yorker living in San Diego, and can't recall where the others are coming from. Maybe I should do a poll by the individual states vs the rest of the world.

Steve

 

ps. Agreed, an interesting PhD theses might be in the calling

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What a great way to think. A returning customer is the best tip a business could ever wish for.

 

Stew

 

 

I once heard someone say that a happy customer will tell 2 friends how good there experiance was but an unhappy customer will tell 10 friends how bad the service was.

 

The maths are pretty simple on that one me thinks.

 

Maybe people need to start looking at what they do have instead of what they don't have.

 

Cheers Pete.

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BTW, why everyone that goes on our photography galleries don't just send a few $ to our paypall, as tips for all the work and money involved in taking these pictures? :B):

AND, a lot of us don't even have a salary for taking these pictures. so giving a tip at each gallery look is a huge increases of the money we make.

 

Maybe this is silly, BUT, it probably explain a lot : if you get tips, you give tips. In the U.S. the system is made for the money to move a lot between people. In other countries, you do your work, and one get money ONCE a month, and this is all what you will get, ever. you keep it for as few things as you can.

 

Just look at the number of cofee shops and all that in a big U.S. city compared to any european big city. American uses their money for anything, European mostly keeps it for "important" things. Just a difference of system, not judging :huh:

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Just look at the number of cofee shops and all that in a big U.S. city compared to any european big city. American uses their money for anything, European mostly keeps it for "important" things. Just a difference of system, not judging

 

Well it's also about having the disposable income due to lower taxes, less protective labor laws, general propensity to work more hours per week than the Euro counterparts etc etc. I've alway thought the point of this thread was to point out once you leave your country, your rules don't always apply in the foreign place.

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Heh Drew, except for dive operations, who seem to all have adopted the american tipping culture no matter what country they're in :B):

 

In the US tipping is no longer a 'culture' thing. It once was, but not anymore. In many other places in the world it still is (but slowly changing as well). In the US it's about companies having been allowed to lower wages significantly below minimum wage, arguing that tipping should be seen as part of their wages. This switched the dynamics of tipping. Instead of being appreciated, it's now the norm, and not tipping is seen as highly offensive. People have actually grown to find this normal. That shows the power of the company in the US. They force you to pay their employees wages twice (product and tipping) and have successfully psychotrained you to defend this practice vigorously. Hats off :huh:

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Well one can blame PADI for that! :huh:

 

I agree and it's BS. I've never been trained well for that, having lived in so many countries from young. I guess I'm not a good gauge for the US citizens! :B): I must say that when I'm in the US, the 15-20% rule applies without thought.

 

I was in Capetown with some friends at a restaurant, and thanks to some bad iPhone math, my friend miscalculated the tip to about 8%. The "waitron" actually told us it was low by 2%.

The good news is that the dive industry in South Africa don't expect a 10% tip... but they do take getting paid promptly seriously! :)

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I'll be headed to Cocos with Steve this week along with some friends of ours. The four of us went out to dinner this past weekend and the very subject of how much to tip came up. I think with liveaboards it's hard to base your tip strictly on a percentage of the cost of the package. A 10% tip on a $4200 package would be $420! To me, that seems like a lot of money for a "tip".

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Sure seems like a lot of money doesn't it. I've always struggled trying to figure out what the right about to tip should be. I finally figured out that if you break it down to what you'd be paying if you stayed in a resort it doesn't look so out of line.

 

Figure what you'd normally tip for meals for 10 days. Think about breakfast, lunch and dinner the tip you'd leave can easily come to $10 a day. Ten days gets you $100. Throw in a couple of drinks and it would be more. :B):

 

If you figure you'd slip the dive guide at the resort a ten for helping you get that great shot, you come up with 40 a day for 4 dives off the boat. Seven days of diving comes to about $280.

 

Would you tip the captain and crew of a boat that took you out for a day on the water? Thinking $200 a day even at just 10% you'd get $200 for ten days.

 

If you add that up you would have spent somewhere around $580 in tips for my scenario at a resort. You're $420 number doesn't look so out of line.

 

This doesn't even take into account if someone goes far beyond your expectations and you want to thank them with a little extra. I remember writing to Peter Hughes years ago and asking why he split the tips on his boats evenly. I thought the dive masters/guides should get more than the lady who cleans the rooms. He was adamant that everyone on board had an equally important role in making the quests happy. He knows what he's doing so I couldn't argue. My answer was to send my favorite guide a birthday card when I got home with a little present inside.

 

Cheers,

Steve

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If you figure you'd slip the dive guide at the resort a ten for helping you get that great shot, you come up with 40 a day for 4 dives off the boat. Seven days of diving comes to about $280.

 

I wish I had customers like you when I was a dive guide

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I wish I had customers like you when I was a dive guide

 

:B): My son is a instructor/ trip leader, dive guide so I may have a skewed view of the world.

 

I understand we're all different and our cultures affect the way we think about things. If I went out for a two dive day trip, say off Florida or someplace typical I'd normally leave a $20 for the crew assuming they were busting their butts to help me have a great day.

 

Cheers,

Steve

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