nachoman 0 Posted July 1, 2007 Hi, I'm probably raising the same topic again, but this time from an economical perspective. Prices are in Euros, but unless there is a significant price in one specific element, pricing should be equivalent for this comparison. Are these equipments comparable from a lense quality perspective. What about speed to shot (shutter lag)? Olympus Nikon Canon Model Price (€uro) Model Price (€uro) Model Price (€uro) Body Olympus E-410 630 Nikon D-80 1000 Canon EOS 400 D 680 Base lense ED 14-42mm 0 Nikkor 18-135 0 18-55 0 Case PT-E03 1200 Patima 1580 Patima 1450 Basic Port PPO-E05 for 14-42 0 Patima 60mm 250 Patima 60mm 250 Wide angle lense Zuiko 7-14 1500 Tokina 10-17 400 Tokina 10-17 400 Port Wide angle PPO-E04 700 Patima 890 Patima 890 PER-E02 280 Total 4.310 4.120 3.670 As you can see, I could get a Canon equipment for 900€ less than an olympus.... but I wont have live view... Comments? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
james 0 Posted July 1, 2007 Hi Nacho, There is an identical question to yours posted a few days ago w/ some excellent responses. Have a look around. Cheers James Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nachoman 0 Posted July 1, 2007 Hi Nacho, There is an identical question to yours posted a few days ago w/ some excellent responses. Have a look around. Cheers James Thanks James. I had already read it, but I tried a diferent post to specifically talk about the decision considering the wide angle lenses. AFAIK, the only wide lense available today for the Olympus is, from my view, what makes the economics quite diferent. In other case, the Olympus set would be much cheaper. Probably I made the wrong answer.... Is it worth this piece of glass in the case of Olympus?. Any experiences on how frustrating is for a user currently using display to shoot moving to a Canon viewfinder? Thanks again. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Phaedrus 0 Posted July 2, 2007 Hi Nachoman, You seem to be in a similar place to me. FWIW, my surfing has brought me to either the E410 + Oly's own housing, or the 400D with either a Fantasea or Ikelite housing - either of these are a lot cheaper than the Patima housing. As I see it, from a purely specs & thoery POV, the Olympus would pip the Canon for UW work because of live view., though the vibe I pick up from reviews is that it's of limited use and isn't particularly bright topside, which would probably mean it'd be even duller UW. For me, the D80 is out of my price range. I'm still thinking we'll go for the 400D, but it'll all depend on how the camaras feel when we compare them in the flesh. Mark Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nachoman 0 Posted July 2, 2007 Hi Nachoman, You seem to be in a similar place to me. FWIW, my surfing has brought me to either the E410 + Oly's own housing, or the 400D with either a Fantasea or Ikelite housing - either of these are a lot cheaper than the Patima housing. As I see it, from a purely specs & thoery POV, the Olympus would pip the Canon for UW work because of live view., though the vibe I pick up from reviews is that it's of limited use and isn't particularly bright topside, which would probably mean it'd be even duller UW. For me, the D80 is out of my price range. I'm still thinking we'll go for the 400D, but it'll all depend on how the camaras feel when we compare them in the flesh. Mark Hi Mark, As you see, the price for Patima in Spain are in the range of 1300 euro plus ports... are the Ikelite lot cheaper? Are you coming from digital and screen camera? My single concern is if I will get use to the viewfinder or if a would suffer too much or loose too many oportunities by the necesity of getting closer instead of using my arms... Regards Nachoma Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Phaedrus 0 Posted July 3, 2007 I'm far from an expert (I've only recently started reading about UW photography & DSLRs), but AFAIK, at this pricepoint, the E410 is the only DSLR with Live View. The fact that not many DSLRs actually have LiveView and that most UW DSLR users do alright using the viewfinder, means to me that using the viewfinder UW works just fine, and has done for many years. According to digideep.com, list price for the PT-E03 is €800. That's the only housing they list for E410. Cheapest housings they list for 400D are Fantasea (€950) and 10bar (€1099). They're not listing a Patima housing for 400D, but they do list the Patima 350D housing at €1750. If you've found a Patima housing for €1300, that sounds pretty good. Mark Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RogerC 4 Posted July 3, 2007 to give you some options on prices: the E410 housing can be found for $695 in the US. I'm not sure if that's an option for you. The 8mm fisheye lens is much less money, I think $700 or $800, and it does not need the PER-02, so that's more savings. I'm not sure what material the other domes are, but the athena is optical glass, with coatings. For what that's worth. The optical viewfinder does work, and the electronic viewfinder does have some lag as the mirrors have to flip over and back to set exposure, focus, and are also part of the mechanical shutter linkage, so even in manual exposure and focus, you get a full triple flip. For fast moving fish or behavior shots, live view may not make you happy. Note that this is mode B live view. The older E330 has a mode A live view which uses a separate sensor and there is no lag, no extra mirror flips. But that said, live view is still a good option to have. The 7-14mm is a stellar lens. It will have soft corners, as I think most rectilinear wide lenses will. I'm still trying to figure out how to minimise that with depth of field and focal point. Fisheyes like the 8mm will have sharper corners. Some prefer the fisheye distortion. I don't. 7-14mm lens review: http://www.cameralabs.com/reviews/OlympusE714mm/ links on oly that I've kept: http://www.rogercarlsonphotography.com/lin...mpus/index.html Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Otara 0 Posted July 4, 2007 The 7-14mm is supposed to be a fantastic lens - but the Tokina just got a very glowing review in the latest Underwater Photography Magazine as an underwater lens. Given the price difference it sounds like an awfully attractive option, Liveview is the decider in this in my view, depending on how important it is to you. Otara Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bruceterrill 0 Posted July 4, 2007 Two things come to my mind. Firstly, with the costing of the cameras involved, I think that the Nikon D40X would be a cheaper and fairer contender. I don't really think that the Canon 400D stacks up very well against the D80. IMHO of course. Secondly, if I was starting from scratch again, then I would be giving very serious consideration to the new Olympus D-SLR's with live view AND lenses that are designed for specific underwater purposes... The quality of the lenses are second to none also... IMHO, Bruce Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Phaedrus 0 Posted July 4, 2007 (edited) RogerC, Could you advise of a link to where the Oly housing (I'm presuming we're talking about the PT-E03?) can be had for $695? That translates to about €520, which is absolutely fantastic. I'm guessing any shop selling the PT-E03 at that price will probably also be fairly cheap for ports, etc? I'm sure my brother-in-law in Texas could help me out. For me, in-lens-only AF rules the D40x out as "future proof", and is enough to turn me off. For my part, I'm down to E410, E400 or 400D. From reading reviews and forum posts, the advantages of E410 over E400 (live view, faster processing/buffer) would probably warrant the extra cash (€200 difference between E400/E410 + 14-42 + 40-150). The cost of getting the 400D under the water seems to be higher than that of either of the Olympus cameras, though I've not looked thoroughly into it, so I'm OTC. If that does transpire to be the case, then it'll be Olympus for me. There's little significant difference (by my very limited judgement) between the 400D and E410, so it'll be down to overall cost, including the cost of getting it all under water. Local prices are . . . 400D + 18-55 + 55-200: €1050. E410 + 14-42 + 40-150: €1000. I'm away off now to work out the cost of getting them under the water. I'll look at flash options too. One thing that caught my curiosity when I browsed Olympus UK's website yesterday was that the E330 & E500 came/come with a 14-45mm "kit" lens, whereas the E400 & E410 come with a 14-42mm. Both are 3.5 - 5.6. The 35mm macro lens uses the same port as the 14-45mm lens (PPO-E01), but the 14-42mm lens uses a different port (PPO-E05). I've emailed Oly UK asking if the E410 or E400 could be bought with the 14-45mm rather than the 14-42mm as its kits lens, and if the (presumably older) 14-45mm is inferior to the 14-42mm. If the 14-45mm was an option, you'd then only need one port to allow you to cover both macro & standard UW work. Thanks, Mark Edited July 4, 2007 by Phaedrus Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nachoman 0 Posted July 4, 2007 RogerC, Could you advise of a link to where the Oly housing (I'm presuming we're talking about the PT-E03?) can be had for $695? That translates to about €520, which is absolutely fantastic. I'm guessing any shop selling the PT-E03 at that price will probably also be fairly cheap for ports, etc? I'm sure my brother-in-law in Texas could help me out. For me, in-lens-only AF rules the D40x out as "future proof", and is enough to turn me off. For my part, I'm down to E410, E400 or 400D. From reading reviews and forum posts, the advantages of E410 over E400 (live view, faster processing/buffer) would probably warrant the extra cash (€200 difference between E400/E410 + 14-42 + 40-150). The cost of getting the 400D under the water seems to be higher than that of either of the Olympus cameras, though I've not looked thoroughly into it, so I'm OTC. If that does transpire to be the case, then it'll be Olympus for me. There's little significant difference (by my very limited judgement) between the 400D and E410, so it'll be down to overall cost, including the cost of getting it all under water. Local prices are . . . 400D + 18-55 + 55-200: €1050. E410 + 14-42 + 40-150: €1000. I'm away off now to work out the cost of getting them under the water. I'll look at flash options too. One thing that caught my curiosity when I browsed Olympus UK's website yesterday was that the E330 & E500 came/come with a 14-45mm "kit" lens, whereas the E400 & E410 come with a 14-42mm. Both are 3.5 - 5.6. The 35mm macro lens uses the same port as the 14-45mm lens (PPO-E01), but the 14-42mm lens uses a different port (PPO-E05). I've emailed Oly UK asking if the E410 or E400 could be bought with the 14-45mm rather than the 14-42mm as its kits lens, and if the (presumably older) 14-45mm is inferior to the 14-42mm. If the 14-45mm was an option, you'd then only need one port to allow you to cover both macro & standard UW work. Thanks, Mark Hi, Despite I'm also in favor of Olympus, what really kills me is the fact that moving to wide angle makes a huge diference when comparing Tokina and Zuiko.... and with my limited knoledge, it doesn't look that diferent from a pragmatic and quality perspective ( underwater) I'm also interested on getting a case for the e-410 for round 600€. It would be really great!. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Phaedrus 0 Posted July 4, 2007 Found a link: They won't deliver outside US, and won't accept cards from outside US, but if you knew someone in the US, you might be able to work something out. http://www.videodirect.com/Merchant2/merch...duct_Code=PTE03 PT-E03 housing: $695 (€510) PPO-E05 port for 14-42mm: $300 (€220) PPO-E01 port for 35mm macro (and 14-45mm): $310 (€230) PPO-E04 port for 7-14mm (and 8mm fisheye): $820 (€600) ! PER-E02 extension ring for PPO-E04 port when using the 7-14mm lens: $260 (€190) PFL-E01 housing for FL-36 flash: $540 (€400) So a housing with 2 ports (one for the 14-42mm kit lens and one for the 35mm macro lens) would cost just €960! The port & extension ring for the 7-14mm lens adds €1010. The housing for the FL-36 flash adds €400. This all seems better than reasoable to me. One negative with the PT-E03 is that it's only rated to 40m - could be frustrating on some dives . . . Mark Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RogerC 4 Posted July 4, 2007 The E410 comes with new kit lenses, they are really, really small, but a bit slower than the old ones. They are a little slow (not bad for topside shots in the sun, where you are likely to be using them), but they are really, really small and great for travel. They go for about $200 alone but for about $100 when you get them as a kit. You'd have to buy the 14-45 separately, but a big shop can put together any package you want. It's a good lens, faster even, just larger than the tiny kit lens on the 410. That's why they made new lenses. The best lens in this range is actually the 14-54 but the 12-60 will probably surpass it, in speed if nothing else due to the SWD. 14-54's should hit the used market when that comes out. Olympus lens roadmap: http://www.olympus-esystem.com/dea/product.../zuiko_lens_eng note that they have a promised standard-grade (affordable) super wide zoom lens coming out in 2008. Don't hold your breath. high grade and super high grade lenses are sealed and could probably handle a slight flood. The E1 is the only sealed body so far. Many people, including me, rinse off their E1 and 14-54 in the sink after being around salt spray. (not a full blast stream). on pricing and stuff, I gotta plug the board sponsors. I know Reef Photo is now an oly dealer. Not sure who else is. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Phil Rudin 446 Posted July 4, 2007 (edited) I would like to first dispel the rumor that the 35 mm macro lens won't work in the new PPO-E05 port for the 14 to 42 mm zoom. The new zoom lens fully extended is longer than the 35 macro at full extension. In fact the new port gets the macro lens closer to the inside of the port glass than with the PPO-E01 port which means more distance between the port glass and subjuct on the outside. This is a plus if you are trying to get to life-size. Both lenses, the 14 to 45 and the 14 to 42mm are 3.5 to 5.6 lenses. The AF speed seems the same to me on the E-410. Because the 14 to 54 mm is a faster lens at F2.8 it should AF faster all things being equal. Athena is also making a port for the "kit" 14 to 42 mm lens. It is more expensive but has a dome port rather than a flat glass. This will allow the lens to make full use of the wide end angle of view. As Roger said Olympus is going to release a W/A zoom in a lower price range in 2008. The 12 to 60 mm zoom should be out by Oct. The PT-E03 housing for ther E-410 also allows the popup flash to be raised for use with fiber optic cords. This allows for TTL with several Inon & Sea & Sea strobes without having to add conversion equipment to the housing. I second Reef photo & video as an Olympus and Athena dealer. Edited July 4, 2007 by tropical1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Phaedrus 0 Posted July 5, 2007 So the PPO-E05 is a new port for the new 14-42mm and will also accommodate the 35mm macro? This just gets better & better. That seems to me to be a fine way to start off in UW DSLR. Thanks to all those with the knowledge for sharing it. Mark Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Phaedrus 0 Posted July 5, 2007 Nipped into Dixons on my lunch break. It's a big UK consumer electronics chain - TVs, cameras, PCs, etc. I asked the young assistant what the difference was between the E400 (€529 with 14-42mm) and the 400D (€799 with 18-55mm), seeing as they're both 10MP? I was told that the 400D was much better because it's faster. I asked in what way was it faster. I was told that it was the shutter. It "goes to 1/32,000 of a second, and the E400 only goes to 1/4000". I'll probably buy from Conn's Cameras. Mark Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Phaedrus 0 Posted July 6, 2007 Canon has a promotion on the EOS 400D between 01.07.07 and 31.07.07: €80 cashback when you return a claim form to them within a specific time. http://canon2007promotions.onlinerebates.c...amp;view=promos Nachoman, this is also available in Spain (IIRC, you said you're in Spain?). Argos is selling the EOS 400D + 18-55mm lens for €770. After the cashback offer, the cost would be just €690. That's enough to swing my thoughts from the E-410 to the Canon. The Fantasea housing can apparently be bought for €950, and if the on-line translator I used is correct, that includes a port (cat# 7008) for the 18-55mm kit lens. http://www.digital-dive.de/product_info.ph...asea-F400D.html The max length of the 18-55mm is 79.9mm. The max length of the 50mm macro is 69.8mm, so physically the macro will definitely fit in the 18-55mm port, but will the 10mm gap between the front of the 50mm macro lens and the port glass cause any problems (assuming the port is a close fit to the extended 18-55mm)? Haven't factored in the shipping from Germany, but that aside, EOS 400D + 18-55mm + Fantasea housing & port would cost €1640. Can anyone tell me if there's any negative aspect to this? Obviously, the addition of a longer zoom (for topside) the 50mm macro, a flash & housing or a strobe would have to be added but to get started off with, €1640 seems like a great deal to me. Mark Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Phil Rudin 446 Posted July 6, 2007 So the PPO-E05 is a new port for the new 14-42mm and will also accommodate the 35mm macro? Mark, the 35 mm macro will work in this port. I was told that it was the shutter. It "goes to 1/32,000 of a second, and the E400 only goes to 1/4000". You need to check your facts here 1/32,000th ?? These high shutter speeds are useless in U/W photography anyway. The max length of the 18-55mm is 79.9mm. The max length of the 50mm macro is 69.8mm, so physically the macro will definitely fit in the 18-55mm port, but will the 10mm gap between the front of the 50mm macro lens and the port glass cause any problems (assuming the port is a close fit to the extended 18-55mm)? What 50 mm macro are you talking about? I don't think the old Canon 50 mm will even work on this camera. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
james 0 Posted July 6, 2007 The Canon 50mm macro is a 1:2 lens and is EF mount. It will work on any modern film or digital Canon body. The Sigma 50mm is 1:1 (but has to be VERY (read too) close to get 1:1. It is also EF mount. Cheers James Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Phaedrus 0 Posted July 9, 2007 (edited) Tropical1, the 1/32,000 shutter speed was stated by the Dixon's sales assistant - I know it's not real. The 50mm macro lens I mentioned was the modern EF 50mm. It's the only Canon macro I could "afford", at €330. From what I read, I think I'd prefer a longer macro lens to allow close ups without spooking the subject, but the 60mm USM EF-S lens is €470 and the 100mm USM EF is €670. Mark Edited July 9, 2007 by Phaedrus Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dsbierman 0 Posted July 9, 2007 I've patiently been waiting for Ikelite's 'official' annoucement regarding the E410 housing. Unofficially, I got an email saying it would be ready by the end of July. I have my doubts. With that in mind, the Olympus housing is becoming more and more attractive (especially at the above mentioned price). However, I also plan to use a 105 mm Sigma macro lens. Is there any possibility that Olympus or Athena has a port to accomodate this lens? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
james 0 Posted July 9, 2007 Ouch! That sounds a bit steep for the 100mm. I got mine on Ebay for something like $400. Cheers James Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Phil Rudin 446 Posted July 9, 2007 Yes Athena does make a port for the Sigma 105 macro. Phil Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
