TTL or Manual

[Pacislander 0]

Think I know the answer to this but i figured I'd throw it out there. I just recently got a set up to start shootign underwater. I baught the Ike housing fro my 20D with two Sea and Sea 250's. I plan on shooting manual, but does the Sea and Sea TTL converter work going from Sea and Sea strobes to Ike housing? From what I understand it doesn't but I thought I'd ask. Mahalo

[edman61 0]

TTL for everything so far - about 18 months using

 

Olympus 5060

Ikelite Housing

Single Ikelite DS-125 Strobe

 

 

I've been generally happy with the results - almost exclusively warm-water stuff - Cayman, Turks & Caicos - with great viz. There have been some wide-angle shots, however, that I just couldn't expose the way I wanted. I'm in the process of ordering a second DS-125 and a manual controller - we'll see if that makes a difference. Very possible the photographer is the problem

[markdhanlon 0]

TTL. I've got an Ike housing and Ike strobes so the TTL works quite well (certainly better than I could at this point). Maybe in the future I'll switch, but I prefer to use my camera in manual and let the strobes take care of themselves.

[dhaas 39]

This survey proves nada'

 

People not using TTL don't have an Ikelite system where TTL works just like a dedicated flash unit on the surface. Or have an after market developed TTL system that "kind of" does TTL.......

 

So they say they use manual......Because they HAVE to.

 

If you shoot UW pics mostly within 5' - 6' for strobe power to produce color, TTL is a fantastic tool just like in surface photography.......Infinitely adjustable, reliable and more accurate in real world situations we encounter underwater where everything is changing by the second.

 

OK, today's rant is over

 

dhaas

[Paul Kay 65]

dhaas

 

I have both TTL and manual - via a Seacam 250TTL, Seacam 100s and SB105s (now used as travel strobes) - but I tend to drift between the two depending on what I'm doing, where I am and conditions. On macro I now shoot considerably more using TTL than not - perhaps 75% TTL, whereas for wide-angle (almost entirely using a 24mm on full frame) I only use TTL at times - perhaps <25% of the time.

 

TTL & Manual control both have their place and I don't believe that one is better than the other - its more a matter of selecting which is best for any given situation - assuming that you have TTL of course.

[dhaas 39]

Paul,

 

You're one of the very few who has such a sophisticated system and are experienced enough to know when you prefer manually adjusting flash output.

 

99% of shooters will never master such control in 1-2-3 weeks a year of shooting. Or in their diving skills, or even understanding how TTL and your strobe to subject distance is a constantly moving target.

 

So all I was trying to point out is if Heinrich's TTL sensor, Sea and Sea's sensor or ???? was as consistently accurate through numerous strobe brands as what Ikelite has done most would switch to dialing in EV and be happier UW shooters. Indeed, several talented people shoot enough to know very accurately what range, strobe power, color of fish, exact f-stop, etc. will produce a great shot. But again, 99% don't, and never will

 

So shooting manually to try and get some half way decent exposures plus preaching RAW file format to save mediocre exposures is what is touted over and over. I see people with thousands of dollars of gear all the time who still can't get a decent sponge picture

 

Many of these folks if taught the simple way to use TTL with an Ikelite system (or sTTL as in INON which I've seen predictable results) would be happier is all I'm saying.

 

I always tell people that shooting underwater is about getting a volume of decent exposures suitable to fine tune in post processing. But getting more well exposed shots in camera will lead to more enjoyment shooting underwater IMHO.......

 

And to that end TTL is a boon that still seems to be ignored and dismissed. I just don't like to see people disappointed with their pics when a solution is available.......

 

But I always defer to each his own choices!

 

dhaas

[Paul Kay 65]

Hi dhaas

 

You put that pretty well I'd say! Very fair, well considered comments, which is what wetpixel is all about.

[tdpriest 115]

I've been forced to use manual strobe control for years, because that was all I had. You get a good "feel" for the way that strobes behave, and how to use the angle of illumination, strobe power and distance from the subject.

 

I've just started to play with optical TTL with Inon Z-240 strobes: all that I can say so far is that it's very seductive in macro shooting, and far, far too easy!

 

 

Nikon 105mm VR and TTL

optical connection to Inon Z-240 strobes

right strobe -1.5 EV

 

Tim

 

B)

[craig 0]

I don't agree. I found that basic mastery of strobe exposure was achievable within one dive for macro with digital. I don't consider it difficult at all, and with nearly 4 years off prior to my last trip, I stumbled only with trying to get a Sea & Sea TTL converter or work. Once I abandoned it, I had no trouble with strobe exposure even though I was using an entirely new rig.

 

TTL is a real convenience if you have it and it offers real advantages for certain kinds of shots where subject distance is difficult to predict. Digital makes learning very quick though.

 

I also don't agree that we preach RAW "to save mediocre exposures". We preach RAW because it universally the right thing to do. We should strive to use the best techniques we can each and every step of the way.

 

That said, I would take TTL if it were available to me but I wouldn't go out of my way. I tried that recently and it was a significant failure. I would much rather use the strobes I prefer with the camera I prefer and use manual than to settle for less in order to get TTL to work. Others may feel differently and I think that's fine. Of all the many things I could do better, I don't feel strobe exposure is my most pressing need. I'd rather eliminate sync cords than gain TTL.

[dhaas 39]

Craig (and others),

 

That's what great about forums, everyone's opinion can be heard

 

Despite 4 years without a trip (where / what were you doing?) you are in the same group I detailed as Paul Kay. And there are few here who would also fit being given an all manual system of any type and likely able to go make pictures they're happy with. But most UW shooters, again as I've previously described, never will be in that group

 

TTL converters (and I know I sound like a broken record) from anyone but Ikelite with their DS strobes simply aren't as repeatably accurate. INON's sTTL is the closest IMHO......So it never surprises me that people abandon their new $350.00 + "toy" and go back to manual. Which is fine......I'm biased and I admit it

 

One point on synch cords. I for one have never understood how so many folks have problems with them. You'd think they were glass the way people talk about them. Users I know have over 100 cords and not one has failed. I'd sure like to see what people are doing to make them fail so much. That said, optical synch is certainly nice. Some days I wish I didn't have to shoot at all with a STROBE (or STROBES!)

 

RAW is a great tool, but I will also stand firm that most will never benefit from it. This is after personally seeing people try and save absolute crap shot on RAW. It won't cut it folks. A bad exposure is a bad exposure.......

 

Plus many people do not want to spend their time learning all the nuances of RAW curves, levels, blah, blah, blah........Most start looking for the "Auto-Enhance" command on whatever program they have! I'm sorry, but not every UW shooter is going to buy CS3.........Adobe Photoshop Elements? Maybe.......Most shooters I encounter don't even know what if any program for editing they already HAVE on their computer!

 

The dSLR world and high end UW shooters is very, very small. Most are here or over on DDN. More P&S shooters over on DDN. Know why? Because they get more clear cut quick advice on how to make their diving adventures look better. Without living in front of the computer We need to help these folks, too!

 

One final point..........UW shooters, whether hobbyists or trying sell your vision should never lose sight that only YOU need to be happy with your pics. We all seem to come here and look for validation. A friend recently reviewed the 1985 landmark UW photo book by Chris Newbert's "Within a Rainbowed Sea". I have a copy along with a couple other coffee table books (David Doubilet's is one of my favorites.)

 

Looking at the photos taken 22 years ago I see one thing. Very little has changed.....Except many of the shooters are younger and new in diving and shooting underwater. They also have evidently have never seen the history making photos made by those who developed the craft. I can name 1-2 people I see pushing the envelope of UW image making, even with digital, RAW, blah, blah, blah. (I'm certainly NOT in that group despite beating my head against the boat each dive trip

 

I WILL says digital has enabled us to capture natural history documentation faster and easier than film ever did just by sheer volume. But this is where I get a bit melancholy, even in my own pursuit to make different UW images........

 

So here's an idea......Let's talk more about the image, the emotion, color, angle, etc. and less about the technical gear side. Open up our ideas to not just keep copying the same old, same old.....

 

Craig, you and I have have had some fun debates (not sure if you remember them, but I do I sincerely hope we get to dive together sometime and beat the subject of UW image making to death......Really

 

Well, 17 "Outlaws" (the wife's family!) are coming in about 3 hours for Turkey Day.

 

Signing off, but hope this long post makes people think the next time they dip below the waves! And makes you all smile or laugh!

 

WITH or WITHOUT TTL !!!

 

LOL

 

dhaas

[vkalia 1]

I just wanted to add one comment, addressing a question raised by someone on page 1 of this thread re. losing a quick shot if shooting in TTL.

 

In practice, I find that I have 1 preferred setting for shooting in UWA (Tok 10-17, set at f8) and another setting for shooting macro (100/2.8, set at f16). For both these cases, I have found an ideal setting for the strobes that works pretty much 90% of the time.

 

I spent 75 min yesterday shooting a ghost pipefish we found on one of our sites. I set my strobe output level on the boat, and did not change it throughout the dive.

 

It doesnt take long to be able to know your gear well enough to set the strobes at their sweet spot. I am with Craig there, and I will respectfully disagree with David Haas that it takes a special kind of expertise to be able to reach this level of proficiency.

 

And once you know the sweet spot of your strobes, all you need to do is set them to the appropriate level and odds are, you will be able to shoot rapid action without any fuss. Certainly, percentages are as high as relying on TTL.

 

That being said, I do agree with David that it is probably just as easy to use TTL and learn to work with EV adjustments.

 

As it turns out, I am still trying to get TTL installed on my housing, primarily b/c I would like to try it out. However, as my recently-posted question might indicate, I will not install TTL if it means losing the ability to shoot in manual.

 

Vandit

[craig 0]

Despite 4 years without a trip (where / what were you doing?) you are in the same group I detailed as Paul Kay. And there are few here who would also fit being given an all manual system of any type and likely able to go make pictures they're happy with. But most UW shooters, again as I've previously described, never will be in that group

I appreciate that you credit me with that ability, but I'm not so sure. My first still photography exposure was with film during a photo week where I shot video. My second was digital wide angle in Cocos where I still shot video. During my first dedicated still trip, I learned basic strobe exposure on the first dive. I've gotten better since then but strobe exposure has never been tricky for me.

 

I will grant that others find it more difficult, but it's hard for me to accept your claim that "most" will "never" be able to do it. TTL is a great tool to have regardless. The question for me is simply how valuable it is when it comes at a cost of other things. No one will argue that TTL would be universally adopted would it universally work. I think it's more a matter of where we are now rather than where it should be.

 

As for the 4 years I was gone, the first year of that I had to cancel four consecutive trips due to family problems. After that, I stopped scheduling them because it was hopeless and because all my gear had been stolen and sold off. Cocaine and meth are terrible drugs, whether it's your addiction or someone close to you. Anyway, that had to get fixed before I could return. My son's clean and still alive so that's good.

 

TTL converters (and I know I sound like a broken record) from anyone but Ikelite with their DS strobes simply aren't as repeatably accurate. INON's sTTL is the closest IMHO......So it never surprises me that people abandon their new $350.00 + "toy" and go back to manual. Which is fine......I'm biased and I admit it

I agree that these other converters aren't ready for prime time. The Ikelite ones may be, but I don't like Ikelite strobes, at least the smaller ones, for other reasons. Because of that, I must choose between the strobe I want and the TTL that I don't especially need. If TTL were essential as you feel, then everyone should consider only Ikelite, but then again, if that were true other manufacturers would take TTL more seriously. Perhaps if buyers do that, then other manufacturers will and we will all win.

 

RAW is a great tool, but I will also stand firm that most will never benefit from it. This is after personally seeing people try and save absolute crap shot on RAW. It won't cut it folks. A bad exposure is a bad exposure.......

 

Plus many people do not want to spend their time learning all the nuances of RAW curves, levels, blah, blah, blah........Most start looking for the "Auto-Enhance" command on whatever program they have! I'm sorry, but not every UW shooter is going to buy CS3.........Adobe Photoshop Elements? Maybe.......Most shooters I encounter don't even know what if any program for editing they already HAVE on their computer!

 

The dSLR world and high end UW shooters is very, very small. Most are here or over on DDN. More P&S shooters over on DDN. Know why? Because they get more clear cut quick advice on how to make their diving adventures look better. Without living in front of the computer We need to help these folks, too!

I understand what you are trying to say. I agree that using Photoshop badly isn't better than not using it at all, but RAW has advantages beyond better exposure compensation range. An enthusiast is best served learning how to advance his skills in every step along the process and that includes Photoshop. I recognize that not all photographers are that enthusiastic, but many of those will not be participating here anyway. I believe that PS, or Lightroom/Aperture/similar, should be a pretty standard part of most UW shooters' toolkits. Once you accept that as part of the "workflow" (I hate that term) then RAW is not a burden.

 

Craig, you and I have have had some fun debates (not sure if you remember them, but I do I sincerely hope we get to dive together sometime and beat the subject of UW image making to death......Really

I appreciate the invitation. Outside of Dan, there's no one here I wouldn't consider diving with. If he were certified and could demonstrate the ability to actually take a picture, I might not even object to him!

[Udo van Dongen 6]

D200

Hugyfot housing

2x Inon Z240 + HW iTTL converter, I use it in manual + TTL for macro and Full TTL for WA,

[Christian K 0]

I have Heinrich's converter but had trouble with it over exposing or not firing quickly (for macro) so have gone back to manual. (probably operator error)

 

D200

Aquatica Housing

2xInon D2000

Heinrich TTL

 

According to HW:s site, the D2000 is not compatible with their board/D200-iTTL. From Inon, only the Z240(typeII) and D2000W are fully functional according to the list. Z22, Z220, Z220S and Z220F work, but not in all settings (only MANUAL/MANUAL-TTL).

 

/c