39mp underwater

[Guest Dan Schwartz]

Troy,

 

The color rendition and tone from your Hassy is stunning!

 

For a moment, I thought I was looking at drum scans from a 4x5 chrome.

 

Could you post some larger (like 1024x768) shots at JPEG quality 9? Along with that, please post the EXIF exposure data, and the depth you shot it at... [more]

 

Hello everyone,

 

What a busy week for me. Conditions have not been that good. I was able to go out on another shark dive and although not much macro I was able to test the 120mm for the first time. Not much subjects for interesting macro at all.

 

Here is my opinion with just my first experience:

Not as difficult as one would suspect with all the concerns about limitations.

Not a super macro set up at all. However, the cropability of such a huge format can allow an enlargement of a very small area of the image

Very sharp capture and good color detail

Nova strobes had to be turned way down, so light is definately not an issue

 

So up to this point if anyone wants to get super macro shots for a very large print then wait for the

Canon 1ds mk3. For me to talk tech talk of mf vs. 35mm when it comes to macro then tech talk would win. However, the quality of capture this camera can produce is stunning. There is just so much potential to grow in. Here are just a few images since I promised I would post something. When conditions permit and I have a day off I will go out in my own boat to find some critters. Everyone, I must say I am really enjoying myself. I feel very fortunate to have such a set up. I think there is room in this forum for mf, so don't knock it too much.

 

Dan, since you already have a mf it makes sense for you to consider taking it u/w. For someone who is not a professional and does not alread own a mf I would think twice before sinking 50k into a set up. It just does not make sense espcially when it has been proven that there are so many options in 35mm at half the price and less. In my case it was cheaper for me to put my mf u/w @ 13K .

Just wanting to share,

Troy Aitken

 

In my case, I already have a complete 6x45 film setup ready for digital; and all I need is a housing to keep it dry; optionally a digiback to replace the film backs... And the balls to take it under the sea!

Edited October 24, 2007 by Dan Schwartz

[mexwell 0]

Hello Troy,

 

thanks for the pictures. I think you have a nice tool at hands.

Although I dont see real differences between other high quality

35mm cameras (5D and up).

 

I would really love to see a picture at its original size. Would you mind to

upload such a file to any website? If you dont have access to any

webspace I would love to host the file for you -> contact me via PM

[Paul Kay 65]

Troy

 

Its difficult to tell from your images just what the corners look like from the wide-angle (28mm I presume). Would it be possible to post some small 100% crops from bottom centre (where the foreground is clearly sharp) and the corners (same foreground characteristics) from the same shot, as from the one shot where cornres can be seen they appear slightly softer than bottom centre - but the images are far too small to realy see what is going on. What dome/diopter are you using?

 

Thanks

[rodriguezfelix 0]

I think the quality and detail of this images are really good, maybe they are not worthy of the expense, and maybe a high end DSLR could do it... I don´t know, but this is high quality indeed.

 

That said, Troy I´m pretty sure one of the things must people will love to see, is how your rig manage sunballs and highlights.

[Troy Aitken 0]

Hello dan,

 

65 ft. of water, overcast day. w/a shots @f4.0 125th iso 100. Next time I will shoot the equivalent at iso 400. Dan, what is the largest file size we can post?

 

Troy

 

Hello Mexwell,

 

Give me some specifics on the type set up you want to see and I will accomodate you. Please respect the copyright issues though.

 

Thank You,

troy

[loftus 42]

Yes,

I agree; also in your situation at Stuart Cove, some dappled light shots would be nice to see

http://homepage.mac.com/jeffinorlando/Shar...06/large-7.html

I think the quality and detail of this images are really good, maybe they are not worthy of the expense, and maybe a high end DSLR could do it... I don´t know, but this is high quality indeed.

 

That said, Troy I´m pretty sure one of the things must people will love to see, is how your rig manage sunballs and highlights.

[Troy Aitken 0]

Hello Paul,

 

Bottom left, right and center are inches away from the dome port. this is what you are mostly seeing. I think what I would need to do is shoot something flat u/w that's close and would fill up the frame. I would suspect you would see some softness but to ruin the shot I don't think so. The lens is virtually perfect when dry this I know. Any slight distortion Flexcolor corrects it completely. But to say this dome port was made specifically for my set up by someone like Fathom Optics or Subal I don't think so. The one I have by UK-germany does the job nicely. Look for the image soon, this will tell all.

 

Soon,

Troy

[Troy Aitken 0]

Hello Rod,

 

As mentioned before in this threat and the other by Dan you will see the expense issue addressed. As for Sunballs and highlights that is a matter of proper exposure and balance between sun and strobes. This is true for any set up unless one has a crapy dslr. As for the mf handling bright whites and details in the shadow it does an incredible job w/o looking digital. Again photos soon will show this point conditions permitting.

 

Regards,

Troy

[loftus 42]

I think what most of us are excited to see is how the Hassy handles the transition from specular highlights to highlight to midtone and sea blue in a sunball, sun rays etc. Presently the higher end digital full frame and D2X do it pretty well; below that, like my D200, not always so well. Issues like cyan fringing etc raise their ugly head. Not really a strobe related issue.

Similar thing with dealing with the beauty of dappled light, we all know the experience of actually seeing it, but it's tough to really make it sparkle in the picture like it does in real life. I anticipate that your rig will bring us as close to the real thing as we have so far seen with digital.

Hello Rod,

 

As for Sunballs and highlights that is a matter of proper exposure and balance between sun and strobes. This is true for any set up unless one has a crapy dslr. As for the mf handling bright whites and details in the shadow it does an incredible job w/o looking digital.

Edited October 24, 2007 by loftus

[Guest Dan Schwartz]

Hi Troy!

 

Thanks for the shooting data! I think the limit to post is 500 kilobytes per post if this site hosts the image; but if it's hosted elsewhere and linked via tag, the size is unlimited. Use the square button that has a tree in it to insert a hosted image.

 

Hello dan,

 

65 ft. of water, overcast day. w/a shots @f4.0 125th iso 100. Next time I will shoot the equivalent at iso 400. Dan, what is the largest file size we can post?

 

Troy

 

Hello Mexwell,

 

Give me some specifics on the type set up you want to see and I will accomodate you. Please respect the copyright issues though.

 

Thank You,

troy

[craig 0]

Troy,

 

Sunballs are a challenge because of the high dynamic range and the need to balance strobe and ambient light. The camera's base ISO, dynamic range, and strobe sync speed combined with the lens's maximum aperture and your strobe power determine how good it will be. There are also issues with color due to the spectrum of the sunball itself.

 

It's likely that one will immediately go to fastest allowable shutter speed, then stop down to f/16, or worse, trying to get exposure under control so the sunball isn't blown out. Obviously, DX camera users would prefer NOT to have to use f/16-f/22 due to diffraction. The new D300 and D3 have ISO 200 base so they give up another stop in that respect. It's not clear how good their low ISO settings are yet.

 

I'd expect that the MF's low base ISO combined with very high resolution and high diffraction limits offer a nice start, and their reputation for high dynamic range is what makes us interested in seeing how they do sunballs. This kind of shot is among the most challenging for underwater digital to handle.

 

Also, is it true that the H3D can strobe sync at 1/800? If that's so, then the H3D, at ISO 50, has a 2.5 - 3 stop advantage over 35mm DSLRs in controlling sunballs.

[mexwell 0]

Hello Troy,

 

I also see the copyright issue... maybe you can choose a pic which is

technicaly (exposure/focus) fine but has no real value to you.

I will of course respect your rights but once something is out on the net

you never know...

 

A full size pic after postprocessing would be great. Macro or WA is not

important.

[Guest Dan Schwartz]

Hi Troy!

 

Here's a suggestion, from how we evaluate digital backs vs film (that is drum-scanned) in the studio: Among the most difficult tabletop scenes are coins & jewelry, and furry toys (specifically Gund). Although the furry toys wouldn't work underwater, coins & jewelry certainly would. Also, a comparison shot of the same shiny stuff on the counter would be helpful, too.

 

[Also, because these would be "throwaway" shots, copyright is not an issue -- Nobody would want to steal them! ]

 

Hello Mexwell,

 

Give me some specifics on the type set up you want to see and I will accomodate you. Please respect the copyright issues though.

 

Thank You,

troy

[Troy Aitken 0]

Hey Loftus,

I mentioned strobe just to illuminate a close subject with Sunball etc in the background.

Thanks

troy

[Troy Aitken 0]

Good Morning Graig,

 

Yes! The H3D can sync @ 800. I will post images soon as I can

 

troy

[Troy Aitken 0]

Hello Everyone,

 

Dan was right, The H3D can and will be able to upgrade the ISO to 800 and collect GPS Meta data in January with their new software. I have also discovered using 400 iso does not introduce digital noise due to any heat issue when inside housing. So the only real difference with the H3Dll is a larger LCD screen at the back which is of no real consequence to me due to the bright viewfinder. So, all major upgrades will be by way of firmware until mp's increase. I have not done any tech shots as of yet. We have had bad weather for awhile now. However, I went on a nite dive last nite which was my first time. Using the 120mm macro lens (semi-macro) was awesome. Focus was not an issue as far as focus hunting is concerned. I shot at iso 50 @1/125 F16. The camera can go up to F45 which I have not tested yet for its sharpness and greater D.O.F. That is to be seen. F16 gave me a very shallow D.O.F. Here are a few samples and its' cropability for printing. First image frame size is 1.87"x2.5". The second image is cropped and can be printed up to 16x22 with no quality loss at all. Limitations are evident for the super macro interests but, for me this is plenty enough with extreme sharp results and good real color detail.

 

Enjoy,

Troy.

Edited October 29, 2007 by Troy Aitken

[Troy Aitken 0]

another shot

troy

[Troy Aitken 0]

One more

troy

[Guest Dan Schwartz]

Troy,

 

Congratulations on the quality of the images you captured! To my eyes, at least, it makes the underwater shots I've seen from the Canon 1Ds-MkII seem amateurish.

 

The issue with the ISO being increased from 400 to 800 via firmware was due to the engineers at Hasselblad being a bit conservative, due to the CCD cooling issue. The H3DII does indeed use a different cooling scheme, though, using the entire chassis as a heat sink, instead of a fan.

 

[The thermodynamic calculations as to which cooling scheme will behave better inside your aluminum housing is above my pay grade. But, since you're already shooting at the equivalent ISO=50, cooling is not an issue...]

 

Be careful when stopping down below f/22, as that is getting down past the diffraction limit sweet spot for the circle of confusion for medium format size... With your 36x48mm frame size, the sweet spot is closer to f/16 than f/22. Of course, if you need the DOF, so be it; but before you stop down further, you can leverage the hyperfocal distances. Harold Merklinger has an excellent book (now in PDF) on camera focusing you can reference.

 

Congrats on the superb photos!

Dan

 

Hello Everyone,

 

Dan was right, The H3D can and will be able to upgrade the ISO to 800 and collect GPS Meta data in January with their new software. I have also discovered using 400 iso does not introduce digital noise due to any heat issue when inside housing. So the only real difference with the H3Dll is a larger LCD screen at the back which is of no real consequence to me due to the bright viewfinder. So, all major upgrades will be by way of firmware until mp's increase. I have not done any tech shots as of yet. We have had bad weather for awhile now. However, I went on a nite dive last nite which was my first time. Using the 120mm macro lens (semi-macro) was awesome. Focus was not an issue as far as focus hunting is concerned. I shot at iso 50 @1/125 F16. The camera can go up to F45 which I have not tested yet for its sharpness and greater D.O.F. That is to be seen. F16 gave me a very shallow D.O.F. Here are a few samples and its' cropability for printing. First image frame size is 1.87"x2.5". The second image is cropped and can be printed up to 16x22 with no quality loss at all. Limitations are evident for the super macro interests but, for me this is plenty enough with extreme sharp results and good real color detail.

 

Enjoy,

Troy.

[rodriguezfelix 0]

Hi Troy, in my personal opinion with the juvy flamingo tongue one you prove the benefits of 39MP, but the last 2 didn´t say to much, maybe you could close your aperture a little more on your macros, because the lack of DOF didn´t surrender any significant details on the subject that we can appreciated.

 

Again my 2 cents.

[Troy Aitken 0]

Thanks Dan,

F22 will be at max only giving me 2-3mm more unless I simply pull back further for more dof and allow the cropability of 39mp work for me. Sharpening skills in post may allow to go higher in the f-stop. I will play with it and let you know. Do you have your plastic bag yet?

Troy

[Guest Dan Schwartz]

Felix,

 

Look closely at the material to the right of the fish: You'll see that the areas that are in focus are 1/3rd in front of the plane of focus, and 2/3rds behind this plane. [This is assuming, of course, that the body of the fish is on the plane of focus.]

 

Troy,

 

May I suggest that you bracket the aperture, i.e. f/16, f/22, f/32, & f/45, for a given scene, so you can actually evaluate the effects of diffraction vs DOF?

 

Hi Troy, in my personal opinion with the juvy flamingo tongue one you prove the benefits of 39MP, but the last 2 didn´t say to much, maybe you could close your aperture a little more on your macros, because the lack of DOF didn´t surrender any significant details on the subject that we can appreciated.

[Troy Aitken 0]

Thanks Rod, I will do that

Troy

[Guest Dan Schwartz]

Hi Troy!

 

I forgot -- Your H-series lens(es) may not be able to stop down below f/22. You should ask your Hasselblad rep (or even Christian Poulsen directly) if your lenses can be modified to go down to f/32, or even f/27.

 

No plastic bag yet: I may use a Rubbermaid tub from Wal-Mart with a (coated glass) flat port glued to the side instead!

 

Thanks Dan,

F22 will be at max only giving me 2-3mm more unless I simply pull back further for more dof and allow the cropability of 39mp work for me. Sharpening skills in post may allow to go higher in the f-stop. I will play with it and let you know. Do you have your plastic bag yet?

Troy

[craig 0]

There's two ways to consider maximum f/stop that will lead to two different results. The first way is just like you would with film i.e. final print size and viewing distance. At a constant viewing angle, the H3D can stop down one full stop more than 35mm by virtue of it's larger sensor. Medium format is traditionally not used in this way since MF shooters are typically after larger print sizes (and viewing angles aren't constant as a result). It is a valid perspective though.

 

The second way is to consider pixel pitch. Since the H3D has a pixel size between a 1Ds2 and a 1Ds3, appropriate macro apertures will be similar. Using this approach preserves the maximum resolving power of the camera's sensor. It also means that an H3D is simply capable of about twice as a large a print.

 

I suspect f/32 is managable for some shots. Considering the relatively low power and magnification of the 120mm macro lens, I'd wonder if any more is really necessary.

 

Using cropping as a solution to the DOF problem is nothing more than throwing away the inherent advantages of the larger format.