Wet Macro Lens?

[pablo 0]

I have an Ikelite housing for my Sony SR1. I find it works pretty well for me with their W/A lens. It is zoom-thru and I can get a focused shot with full zoom at a minimum of about 18". Maybe that's sort of "half macro" or something like that? The W-20 Ikelite W/A lens is a wet lens so you can install or take it off any time during a dive. The port on the housing is a flat port.

 

Does anyone know of a wet macro lens? Do they make such a thing? If so could it be adapted to fit in the port threads I have? Maybe a dumb question, but I'd like to be able to do something like that if it's a possibility.

Edited October 30, 2007 by pablo

[Nick Hope 151]

A mate of mine got the biggest diameter diopter he could find and fitted it into a PVC port cover and used that outside a flat port. He said it was OK. Vignetted on wide but that doesn't matter because you'll use it zoomed right in anyway.

 

So you could maybe try and get something like a single-element +4 (which maybe cheapest as part of a kit of 3 by Hoya or similar) and invent a fixing for it and see how it goes. They're pretty cheap. Or maybe one of them will actually fit your threads?

 

Close up lenses at keene.co.uk

[craig 0]

Keep in mind that a diopter won't work the same way in water as it will in air. In fact, if it was made of acrylic it wouldn't work at all. Dual element diopters won't work properly either. A single element diopter will be much less powerful in water than in air.

 

How large a diameter is really necessary? Would the Inon 67mm diopters work?

[Roger Eve 0]

Hi Pablo,

 

Sea & Sea make a "flip-over" WET close-up lens for their PC330 housing. It works just fine for genuine macro, but is specific for that housing.

 

My wife uses a push on +2 dioptre on the flat port for her Sea & Sea D200 housing and that works well with her 60mm lens. I'll try and find out who makes it as it is built into a flexible skirt that just pushes over the front of the port.

 

Roger

[pablo 0]

Thanks for all the input in your replies - - -

 

Nick: Ikelite says the flat port (the one I use to attach their W-2 W/A wet lens) has standard 67mm threads. So that would seem to indicate that I should be able to buy something like those Keene of Inon closeup 67mm #4 "filters" (I'm assuming when it says "Close Up Filter Kit" that those aren't just thread adapters but actual lenses of various diopters?).

 

Craig: Where does one get the Inon 67mm diopter lenses (or whatever you call them if not "lenses")? It sounds like the same type of thing Nick mentioned but a different brand? Would you also think that something like a +4 would be a good start? (I guess if I got a kit like the Keene I would have 3 choices, for that matter...)

 

Roger: I'll watch for further info if you can find out more on the push-on version your wife uses. Since it is called "wet" should I surmise that it might work differently from some of the others discussed above which probably were designed for "dry" use?

 

(What a great forum - so much experience and willing to help...thanks!)

Edited October 31, 2007 by pablo

[craig 0]

I have not shot video for a long time, so I'm not the one to ask regarding what power to start with. Keep in mind, though, that power ratings can be misleading.

 

A diopter is technically a single lens "element". It may use more than one optical component however. When a manufacturer describes a product as a "macro lens" or a "close up lens", it may just be a diopter.

 

Inon makes two 67mm products, the UCL-165M67 and UCL-330. They also make a variety of mounting options. The 330 is a +3 power while the 165 is +6. What that means underwater is hard to say. ;-) I have used the 330 and it is of moderate power. I've also used an Epoque 67mm diopter and it is much stronger.

 

I believe a number of online retailers offer these diopters. I got mine from Ryan at Reef Photo.

 

If I were to use a simple diopter like Nick mentions, I'd start with a +4. Once submerged, it will be about a +1.5.

[pablo 0]

I did some searching around on the net before Craig's last reply. The Inon lens seem a good choice since they are evidently designed to be used wet, in water (up to around 200' it would seem) as well as on land. On the CamerasUnderwater site it says that the Inon UCL 330 is +3.03 diopters in air or water (flat ext. optical surfaces), and that the UCL 165 is +7.37 in air and +6.06 in water (has sealed internal air space).

 

I also saw them in stock for $124.95, either model, at DiverVision.com.

 

If I were to buy just one to start with, which would likely be more practical for the "usual" macro?

[craig 0]

The lower power one IMO. The stronger the diopter, the narrower the focus range.

 

P.S. The Inon close up lenses are specified in focal length (in mm). To convert to power, it is 1000/f.

 

1000/330 = 3.03

1000/165 = 6.06

 

The Canon diopters are specified the same way.

[pablo 0]

Thanks for the help. I decided to try one of the Inons (330). And thanks to all for their suggestions and help.

[Nick Hope 151]

Craig makes a good point about the much lower power of the diopter in water since the difference in refractive index between glass and water is much smaller than between glass and air. I hadn't thought about that.

 

Thanks for all the input in your replies - - -

 

Nick: Ikelite says the flat port (the one I use to attach their W-2 W/A wet lens) has standard 67mm threads. So that would seem to indicate that I should be able to buy something like those Keene of Inon closeup 67mm #4 "filters" (I'm assuming when it says "Close Up Filter Kit" that those aren't just thread adapters but actual lenses of various diopters?).

Correct. I have a Hoya set of +!, +2 and +4 58mm single element diopters that I bought in a shop in Tottenham Court Rd London for my VX2000. They are cheaper than you might expect but OK. But to be honest those specialised ones that others have found are probably worth the extra money because they look more rugged and less likely to corrode.

 

With a single-element diopter you should expect some chromatic aberration towards the edges of your shot, which basically means slight fuzziness/bluriness.

 

Also the most common mistake with diopters is to be too close to the subject. You'll get the subject biggest in your shot if you're quite a long way from the subject. Which then makes camera steadiness very important (think tripod). You'll get a feel for the optimum distance through trial and error.

[Roger Eve 0]

Roger: I'll watch for further info if you can find out more on the push-on version your wife uses. Since it is called "wet" should I surmise that it might work differently from some of the others discussed above which probably were designed for "dry" use?

Hi again Pablo,

 

I appreciate that you are looking at the Inon but I will give you the info anyway. My wife uses a Nexus push on close-up lens.

 

http://www.nexusamerica.com

 

They make three sizes, but with a soft "skirt" they fit a variety of ports. In the UK you can get them from Ocean Optics.

 

Roger

[pablo 0]

Nick, I appreciate the input very much. It seems that one of the first things to do is zoom in a little - at least enough to eliminate or minimize the vignetting; then I'll work on playing with distances from subject, etc. I'll have to practice with it - doing a pool session just before the next trip, so that may be a good time to experiment. I did buy one of the "SLR Zoom" model Gorillapods, and am having a small mounting piece added to the housing bracket, so I hope to be able to get steady enough.

 

Roger - thanks. I looked around the Nexus site. They really have a lot of equipment! Anyway after I play with the Inon UCL 330 I may want to get some other strengths, and the push-on items might bge a good choice. I'll have to see if I can do any good work in the macro world to start with, this being my first foray into macro. Thanks for taking the time to get the info and respond again.

Edited November 1, 2007 by pablo

[Dixter 0]

Well this is what I use and it works fine.....

 

I found one of the old Nikonos macro lens on Ebay... I think you can also still purchase new ones..

 

I then mounted it on a ultralight arm... put the arm on the Ikelight housing and the lens just swings in place

when I want macro and swings away when I don't want macro...

 

Works great......

 

here's the link http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/3729..._up_Outfit.html

 

you don't need the frame, just use the lens.... they show up on Ebay quite abit....

Edited November 1, 2007 by Dixter

[ronscuba 4]

There is a chart floating around on the internet someplace that shows subject to lens ranges for various diopters.

 

I don't remember the exact numbers,

 

+1 around 18"-36"

 

+2 around 10"-20"

 

+4 around 7"-10"

 

I use the +2 most. Although it is less powerful than the +4, I like the versatile range.

[Nick Hope 151]

Those figures sounds about right Ron.

 

When I did some macro/diopter tests recently I found that with my Century +3.5 I could get the image largest on the screen when I was zoomed fully in and the subject was 10" from the front of the housing, which would be something like 11" from the front of the diopter. Closer than that and I couldn't get focus.

 

God, lens physics does my head in Am I the only one? I found this search turned up some interesting reading, but lock the kids out and have your coffee first.

[craig 0]

The maximum focusing distance using a diopter is easy; it's the focal length. For the Inon's, it's 330mm and 165mm. For +1, +2, and +4, it's 250mm, 500mm, and 1000mm. Ron's numbers are just about right, although the +1 will go out to about 40".

 

The inner focus limit depends on your lens, of course. Ron's numbers are reasonable for lenses with close focus capabilities.

 

Remember, focal length = 1000mm / (diopter power) or about 40" / (diopter power). Underwater focus ranges will be a little longer.

[Aqua Luminous 0]

I have an Ikelite housing for my Sony SR1. I find it works pretty well for me with their W/A lens. It is zoom-thru and I can get a focused shot with full zoom at a minimum of about 18". Maybe that's sort of "half macro" or something like that? The W-20 Ikelite W/A lens is a wet lens so you can install or take it off any time during a dive. The port on the housing is a flat port.

 

 

Pablo

Do you have distortion on the edges of your footage when you use the W/A lens. I have found that all of the image around the outside edge is very soft. I have the Ikelite HV20 with the Inon UWL 100 W/A lens. What W/A model is yours? I would like to know if Ikelites, Epoque W/A lens is any sharper?

Anyone have any comparisons?

 

Scott

[pablo 0]

I have the Ikelite W/A lens that I bought from them: W20 I believe the model number is. I haven't noticed any softness around the edges. I am no expert, though, and only used it on one trip to Tahiti so far. But nothing I saw showed fuzziness. I don't know how it would look if I were to shoot a focus card or something like that.

[SimonSpear 65]

I've used an external WA and Macro wet lens on an Ikelite housing with not great results on HDV cams.

 

The Epoque DCL20 (?) gives a lot of softness around the edges of the image. It's ok for open water use, but whenever there is a lot of background then it's fairly apparent. Would non trained eyes notice it? To be honest possibly not, but it is there. I've never used the Inon though so can't comment on that.

 

I've also used an Epoque DML2 for macro and had some nasty surprises. At full WA I got a lot of vignetting which was not seen in the viewfinder or on the LCD screen. I only saw it once I'd captured the footage to my computer. Here's a frame grab.

 

 

In summary from my experience I don't think these wet lenses are particularly suited for HDV cams. They were fine on miniDV, but don't seem to be up to the quality required for HD.

 

Cheers, Simon

Edited November 11, 2007 by SimonSpear

[jonny shaw 16]

Scott,

I have used a Inon UWL 100 W/A lens with my Ikelite and Sony HC 1, the softening was around the edges I found awful. I actually don't bother with that lens any more.

 

Jon

[Nick Hope 151]

There was a mod at some point by Ikelite to improve performance of these wide angle lenses with the HC1/HC3. I think it moved the lens closer the the camera. Before the mod the footage was pretty much unusable. But I heard people still had trouble because of the small plastic thread wearing out.

[pablo 0]

My Ike housing is a fairly new model, having come out just last November (one year ago), but I don't know if they made any "modifications" WRT the port and W/A stuff. I'm going to the pool for a practice session in early January. I'll try to get a card or something that will show sharpness around the edges (if anyone has a suggestion as to what to use and where to get it I'd appreciate thoughts on that) - or fuzziness as the case may be. I'll do some shots with and without the Ike W-20 W/A, then add the Inon closeup filter to the W/A lens and shoot again. Then I can post here and all can see what I get. (I'm shooting HD with a Sony SR1.)

Edited November 13, 2007 by pablo

[Nick Hope 151]

The mod I'm thinking of was done at least 18 months ago.

[Aqua Luminous 0]

Scott,

I have used a Inon UWL 100 W/A lens with my Ikelite and Sony HC 1, the softening was around the edges I found awful. I actually don't bother with that lens any more.

 

Jon

 

 

Jon,

Have you found something that works for W/A on Ikelites without the awful softening? I am shooting the Canon HV20 the cam puts out great footage but needs a good lens anyone have any thoughts?

 

Scott

[jonny shaw 16]

Unfortunately no I haven't. I am in fact going to upgrade to a Canon XH A1 with Gates and sell my Ikelite housing.

 

Jon