POTW contest Rules violation

[kriptap 0]

And remember if you are not sure that a diver is harassing something you can always look it up on the web while your there and check:

 

 

Oh and if they interact with the Great Whites in SA, then we should be able to do it in Cayman:

 

Edited November 21, 2007 by kriptap

[craig 0]

Other thing is that you don´t want to see it because you support spearfishing.

A nice example: I cant find a photo nature web (for example: www.fotonatura.org) puting in her pages a photo of a bird hunter! Dont you see its not normal????

Showing an image of a spearfisherman is not an endorsement of spearfishing any more than an image of an executioner is an endorsement of murder.

 

A bird photographer may not show images of bird hunters (he certainly might), but we are not all underwater equivalents of bird photographers and it is a mistake to say that we all have the same personal views regarding fish conservation (or that Wetpixel does). I bet that bird photographer eats chicken occasionally, as well. My fellow underwater photographers certainly eat seafood while on trips.

[EstebanTore 0]

Thats your own words:

A bird photographer may not show images of bird hunters (he certainly might)

And do you know any photo nature WEB where nature hunters photos are shown????? Please if you know one, refer it to me.

Edited November 22, 2007 by EstebanTore

[Giles 1]

 

Is this man going to kill something .. he is carrying a gun and surely the only point by your interoptation Esteban Tore is that if he has a gun he will kill !

 

Also as for your asking of a Nature website showing hunting, lets take http://www.seashepherd.org/ where photos like this can be found:

are they advocating hunting or killing animals because they show photos like this ?

 

And as for nature and hunting mixing seamlessly .. check out American Culture (i am sure there are others as well it's just the one i am familiar with) They have TV channels devoted to hunting called things like .. The American Outdoorsman, Wild TV, Outdoor Dreams.

[bartusderidder 0]

I am under the impression that a slight language issue has occurred where the wording of the rules is being taken too specifically. It is not a rule against taking photos of harassment underwater .. but a rule against harassing the wildlife to get a better (or not) photo.

 

Exactly Giles !

 

I, myself, have taken pics (and posted them here) of dynamite fishing in Indonesia. If I were to post one in the POTW contest, would that make me a supporter of this practice????? By no means did I ask that local fisherman to throw his self-made bomb so I could take a disturbing image of dead fish.

 

If any harassment were to be done in this particular picture (cfr rules of POTW) then it would have to be the photographer himself harassing the spearfisher in order to get a great shot. (like putting an anchor to his feet so he stays at a particular depth)

 

I'm wondering, EstebanTore,...are you related to D. S. in any way?

 

In my personal opinion I think that even a non-pleasing picture can be a very strong image. There are examples of photos of kids dying of starvation in Africa, photos of people in Vietnam in total distress during the war, and yet those pics have won competitions. Clearly all subjects in those pictures are *harassed*, but not by the photographer.

 

Or should we allow only pleasing pictures to enter a competition?

[craig 0]

Thats your words but i reiterate: ...

 

If you are going to quote me, then quote me correctly. I said "A bird photographer may not show images of bird hunters (he certainly might)...". There's a big difference. I said that he "may not" but then again he "might".

 

On the other hand, you said "A nice example: I cant find a photo nature web (for example: www.fotonatura.org) puting in her pages a photo of a bird hunter! Dont you see its not normal????" It is you that is claiming that nature photographers don't show pictures of hunters, not me. Yo put it your way, "Thats your words"...

 

There is no clearer counterexample of your claim that the very ones that started this thread. You may not consider it normal but I do.

[echeng 0]

Guys, I think it's better to allow EstebanTore to leave, if he wants to. If one doesn't subscribe to logic thinking, there is no point in a debate. As we have seen recently, additional replies from us are only going to incite emotional retaliation (again, without logic).

[EstebanTore 0]

Is this man going to kill something .. he is carrying a gun and surely the only point by your interoptation Esteban Tore is that if he has a gun he will kill !

Thats obvious.

In my country, at least, a policeman has a weapon to defend people not to kill.

Do you really think the spearfisheman in the photo has a speargun charged for free diving joy??

Come on.

 

Also as for your asking of a Nature website showing hunting, lets take http://www.seashepherd.org/ where photos like this can be found:

are they advocating hunting or killing animals because they show photos like this ?

A children of 5 knows this page is not suporting shark haunting.

Even if you see the image alone you know the photografer is against shark haunting

You only want to see the image, but the photos of the spearfisher in POTW are cleary defending wildlife harrasment.

[EstebanTore 0]

If you are going to quote me, then quote me correctly. I said "A bird photographer may not show images of bird hunters (he certainly might)...". There's a big difference. I said that he "may not" but then again he "might".

 

On the other hand, you said "A nice example: I cant find a photo nature web (for example: www.fotonatura.org) puting in her pages a photo of a bird hunter! Dont you see its not normal????" It is you that is claiming that nature photographers don't show pictures of hunters, not me. Yo put it your way, "Thats your words"...

Sorry about that.

My english its very basic

 

I'm wondering, EstebanTore,...are you related to D. S. in any way?

What is D.S. ?

[craig 0]

Sorry about that.

My english its very basic

It's OK. I appreciate that you communicate with me in my language since I cannot in yours.

[EstebanTore 0]

If one doesn't subscribe to logic thinking, there is no point in a debate.

You must say better: if one doesn't subscribe to YOUR thinking, there is no point in a debate.

If there is no more points of view than yours, why do a debate?

Its very simple:

You support spearfishing and i im totaly against.

I respect people who do spearfishing but i dont like this and i try to fight against.

I will never go to a spearfishing web to say im against, but i tought wetpixel was a nature web defender and im very surprised to see that is not

[ce4jesus 1]

You must say better: if one doesn't subscribe to YOUR thinking, there is no point in a debate.

If there is no more points of view than yours, why do a debate?

Its very simple:

You support spearfishing and i im totaly against.

I respect people who do spearfishing but i dont like this and i try to fight against.

I will never go to a spearfishing web to say im against, but i tought wetpixel was a nature web defender and im very surprised to see that is not

 

Then Wetpixel as a site isn't much different than you concerning spearfishing. You both respect the people who spearfish legally. The difference lies in the fact that Wetpixel is neutral (neither pro nor con) while you are actively against it. I think there are many other areas that you can be at harmony with on this site. As someone who used to "not care" about the state of affairs underwater, I can tell you that the respectful discourse on this site has changed my views in many areas. That along with the compelling photos showing the carnage indiscriminantly taken from our seas has helped educate me. This policy of tolerance and education is the best weapon against ignorance and apathy.

Edited November 22, 2007 by ce4jesus

[echeng 0]

You must say better: if one doesn't subscribe to YOUR thinking, there is no point in a debate.

If there is no more points of view than yours, why do a debate?

Its very simple:

You support spearfishing and i im totaly against.

You are very good at distorting the words people are writing. That's why there is no point. I'm saying that if you actually understood what others are writing, the discourse would be worth pursuing.

 

For example, please point me to the place where I say that I support spearfishing. You can't, because I never said that -- but you wrote it, anyway. Do you see the problem?

 

What if I wrote, "you support killing babies. I am totally against it..." ?

 

You would either defend yourself (because you never wrote that), or give up after realizing that it isn't worth trying to convince someone who can't or won't think critically and logically.

 

The great thing is that others here are responding politely (for the most part), and are trying to communicate all of this constructively. So at least some good can come of it.

[echeng 0]

Then Wetpixel as a site isn't much different than you concerning spearfishing. You both respect the people who spearfish legally. The difference lies in the fact that Wetpixel is neutral (neither pro nor con) while you are actively against it.

This is a good point. We, as a FORUM, are neutral because we want to provide a place for educational discourse. There are some things that we take official stances on, but a stance on a photo of someone holding a speargun isn't one of those things.

[EstebanTore 0]

This is a good point. We, as a FORUM, are neutral because we want to provide a place for educational discourse. There are some things that we take official stances on, but a stance on a photo of someone holding a speargun isn't one of those things.

I belong to another diver forum (forobuceo.com), the bigest in Spain, where there are the best Spanish underwater photografers (included the underwater world champion Carlos minguel) and i can assure you that a spearfisherman photo will be erased in few minutes.

We can´t be neutral on fish killing for joy.

[rodriguezfelix 0]

Esteban, do you asked yourself if the photographer supports spearfishing or this photos are actually criticizing it?

 

I must remember to you that the photog is not the spearfisherman, and he as all of us capture images and moments, everything is a matter of context...

 

I think people in this forum are free to feel and think whatever they want about anything. I´m not against spearfishing because I like to eat fish, and if I must do this in order to eat fish, be sure I´ll do.

 

But... if you are not confortable with me thinking this way, you should leave the forum or never post an image again? That my friend is completely up to you. But before you do this please I must beg you to tell us that you are actually a vegetarian and never in your life ate anything meaty...

 

There is no point on making this another "Schwartz" post...

Edited November 22, 2007 by rodriguezfelix

[bartusderidder 0]

There is no point on making this another "Schwartz" post...

 

That, dear Esteban, is what "D.S." stands for...

 

I say it's time for a beer who's with me, I'm buying

[echeng 0]

We can´t be neutral on fish killing for joy.

This is an assumption you cannot make. A spearfisherman may be down fishing for food -- you don't know the guy, and you have no idea what his motivations are.

 

As for your Spanish forum, if everyone on there isn't vegetarian or vegan, deleting a photo of a guy with a spear is a good example of hypocrisy. But maybe they just have different rules than we do here. If your goal is to complain about the way we do things, you have succeeded. As the administrator of Wetpixel, I hereby register your complaint.

 

You can continue, but I am done. See you on the other threads...

[sgietler 1]

Its good to have discussions like this to make people think about issues... especially a complicated issue like spearfishing, which has many pro's and cons.

 

I personally have no problem with the photo. I don't think the photo encourages more killing / harrassment of fish by photographers. the POTW rules are there to ensure that we, as a group, don't think its ok to harrass/improperly handle/spear/maim fish just to get a better photo.

 

knowing people will always eat fish, but many fish populations are in danger (some from overfishing, some from nets, some from spearing, etc.), we should all think about what we can do to help conserve this precious resource.

 

 

Scott

[mexwell 0]

All of you have to take a step backwards and realize that there are huge (!)

differences between the image of and thinking about underwater hunting

in Europe and the US.

 

The med sea is totally overfished and illegal hunters (on scuba or not does

not matter) did their part of killing the larger species in most of the popular

dive sites. If you have a chance to do a dive in protected waters (in the med)

you get a good idea of what it was years ago.

 

In the US uw-hunting is a popular sport and mostly accepted within the

diving community. I did two trips to the keys some time ago and was

stunned to see hunters and lobster collectors on the same boat as leisure

divers... I was totally shocked!

 

While I totally NOT agree with any kind o uw-hunting you have to see this

thread through "two different pair of eyes"!

 

Please folks don't be to harsh to each other! I have the feeling that the once

very friendly culture of WP is in free fall right now. Even eric seems to have

his nerves on the edge.... PLEASE relax...

 

 

PS: I also think that such a photo does not belong on WP. But it is not (!)

a violation of the rules.

Edited November 22, 2007 by mexwell

[loftus 42]

I belong to another diver forum (forobuceo.com), the bigest in Spain, where there are the best Spanish underwater photografers (included the underwater world champion Carlos minguel) and i can assure you that a spearfisherman photo will be erased in few minutes.

We can´t be neutral on fish killing for joy.

As Eric points out, this site is essentially neutral, to allow fairly balanced discussion on most issues. There are meat eaters and fish eaters on this forum, just as there are vegans. For me personally the answer is somewhere in between - I do not eat meat and eat fish sparingly. I subscribe to the old adages ' There is enough for our need, but not for our greed', and 'everything in moderation'.

I do not equate a solitary spearfisherman (who given the benefit of the doubt is not breaking the law) with long line fishermen, just as I do not equate a flyfisherman in a Montana river with dynamite fishermen on a reef.

Ultimately these conservation issues come down to too many people, for too few resources, and too much waste. The answer does not lie in total banning of all animal product consumption, rather in fewer people, with better management of our resources.

That being said, we need people with strong views like Esteban, who I assume is a vegan, to balance the out of control destructive ocean harvesters on the other.

[Wishbone 0]

Hey guys!

 

I kept my promise not to post any comments here until the voting is over. However, now I feel free to express my feelings about the whole commotion... Might be a long boring post so you don't really have to read it.

 

I'd like to thank the moderators for strictly applying the rules. Thanks also to the guys who supported their decision even though they disapprove spearfishing. And of course I'd like to thank Mr. Tore for providing me with a goal for the future - to present the true nature of spearfishing in my photographs.

 

About the photos - I had no intention whatsoever for the photo to strike any controversy. As a newbie, all I wanted was to see where I stand. But after all this, I was actually hoping for the photo not to be among the top three in the contest. It would have left a bitter taste in my mouth assuming people voted for it only cause of Mr. Tore's reaction to it.

 

How I took the photo? Why the gun was charged? The truth is quite simple. I got me a new camera and my buddy wanted to test my gun cause his old one (depicted on the photo) started to fail. We went to a place without any chance of actual spearfishing - sandy bottoms with posidonia fields starting at depth of 15+ meters. For the "photo session" my buddy made few repeated dives to -28m and then we went to more shallow waters. The only thing speared was one rather old beer can we found. We took it with us when we left, so the dive actually had a positive environmental impact...

 

Now Mr. Tore is right to call me a fish killer and since my photos caused you 45+ posts I better introduce myself. I'm a 2nd generation spearo and I've been practicing it for some 15 years already. The first lesson my dad taught me, despite "Try not to drown, will ya? Your mom wouldn't like that!" was to not take more fish than I need for my table. It happened back in the 80s and that's still the basic law for every freediving spearo... I never managed to become a top spearo - in 2002 I had a pneumothorax and I was banned from diving. I was hopping from one doctor to another for few years until I found one to allow me to freedive again, preconditioned that I don't go deeper than 5-6m. So now I am back in the water. And since at max depths of 8m (yeah, I cheated the good doc a bit) you can't do much spearfishing I found a new passion - underwater photography. I take all my photos on freediving and I still do spearfish occasionally, always obeying the fish/table ratio.

When going through the posts again I can't help but smile at Mr. Tore's arguments against spearfishing. He is obviously lacking most basic knowledge about this activity. I doubt that he has ever practiced any freediving and I really do not care if he's a vegan or not. I doubt it I'll start defending the fundamental rights of the vegetables only cause him either...

It's a fact that I have chosen not to buy fish for my family. I believe spearfishing is the most environmentally friendly way to provide fish to my table. And I don't believe a person in his right mind would deprive his children from eating fish. By not buying fish I am in fact boycotting the commercial fishing industry. It's the real the enemy of every spearo...

The majority of the spearos are actually every environmentally conscious and you would hardly find people more passionate about the protection of fish. Why's that? Simple - if there's no fish there won't be spearfishing.

I believe it's was the WWF's oceans protection campain slogan "Stop overfishing, or fishing would be over!". So that's why you don't have to question the feelings of the spearos about protecting the environment.

Now when I say spearos, of course I realise that this is a generalization and there are bad apples on every apple tree. These bad apples are hated in their own community. But still poachers are an exception from the rule and not THE RULE as Mr. Tore is trying to convince us.

I do admire the passion of people like Mr. Tore. But I believe when you're making a point you should at least try to at least garnish the propaganda slogans with some facts. The whale hunting image was especially bad example since everyone knows that freedivers and spearos admire the sea mammals the most of all sea creatures. Some even identify themselves with dolphins.

To say that spearos in the Med catch everything they see is yet another slogan. Spearos in the Med, take edible fish. And when they do that they obey the local regulations. And these are some strict regulations! If they don't follow the rules (the bad apples case), then they are poachers and they should be responsible for their actions. If Spain has problems enforcing the laws that's another story. But if someone is drunk driving, I don't believe the solution is to ban driving.... or the wine industry. That would be quite silly.

Another example besides the bad apples would be the newbies - but they don't catch much fish anyways and they realize some fish aren't good eating quite fast. If someone posts a photograph of fish stringer of inedible fish in any spearfishing forum - watch the guy being reasoned by the whole community. You may try the same experiment with undersized catch or with excess catch. You'd be torn to pieces!

I don't know why Mr. Tore can't see big animals... If I can see them when diving the shallows then I believe the spearos are not really to blame. Now 'big animals' is actually a strange expression, but I believe it's a term to describe groupers. Groupers have been always the heart of the problem. As long as I can remember they were the reason for the first arguments between freedive spearos and scuba spearos back in the late 70s.

Now there are regulations and the groupers are returning. And if you post an undersized grouper photo on any forum, you'd be crucified.

 

Now in order to realize the actual impact of spearfishing in Spain we should probably do a math exercise:

The number of spearos in Spain according to industry data I got few years ago is ~15 000. I remember the number because it's more or less the same with most of the Med Euro countries. I believe in Portugal they are less ~10000. And in Greece they are much more - maybe double the Spanish number. Even if those numbers vary, that's not of such big importance actually.

Let's assume all the spearos in Spain go spearfishing every weekend of the year - that's 104 days... Of course that's not true since it doesn't account for seasons, bad weather, and the fact that maybe half of the spearos are actually "holiday spearos" - they do not spearfish more than 20 days per year. But others spearfish more often, so for the sake of the calculation let's take the 104 days and the 15000 spearos.

Let's assume every spearo in Spain catches 3 kilos of fish every day of those weekends - that's 104 x 3 = 312 kilos a year. Now that's quite tough in the Med but the skilled guys may be able to do it. So we're assuming every Spanish spearo is actually a quite skilled one...

312 kilos x 15000 spearos = 4680 tonnes of annual spearfishing catch in Spain.

FAO statistics says that for 2004 Spain reported 803336 tonnes of catch (in Spain). Now that's the official number and doesn't account for bycatch, unreported catch and so on, but that's the only number I was able to find...

 

And if we compare the numbers it appears that the spearos are responsible for 0.58% of the catch in Spain.

 

That's why I personally believe any opinions blaming spearos for the sad condition of the Med are simply insulting our basic intelligence.

 

Now I do not to advocate for spearfishing, at least not more than to defend my own perceptions. It's a personal choice to spearfish or not, to eat fish or not, to scuba or freedive. And I really don't believe anything I say would actually change the believes of EstebanTore. Or any 'last word at any cost' guy... I am far from this thought and I would refrain as much as I can from replying the posts that would inevitably follow. But a reaction like this coming from an raging environmentalist like Mr. Tore, shows that the fishing industry tricks actually work...

 

I believe Giles pointed out the strong measures Europe is taking to regulate fishing. That is true indeed but we should only hope those measures don't come too late. ironically, Spain was one of the countries that are responsible for the delay of this measure, and constantly opposing to the recommended maximum allowed catch recommendations of the European commission. I personally don't believe in such partial measures. Even if the industry doesn't find a way around the ban on tuna fishing, they'd simply shift their interest to other species. The measures should be wide and drastic...

Another great European invention is the Natura 2000 network of protected habitats. I'm still very much in support of this initiative even though after reading the regulations I realized that Europe protects all marine habitats, except the actual fishing grounds. They actually avoid them quite carefully! So this great initiative would most probably have an effect only on recreational fishing and on the "enourmous" commercial catch of the small boats village fishermen.

A bit sad if you ask me...

 

Anyway... I believe I'd continue taking photos of freediving spearos. I might even start by learning from that Mustard guy.. I saw some really nice spearfishing examples in his Sardinia portfolio...

 

Safe dives everyone!

 

Ivan

Edited November 26, 2007 by Wishbone

[bartusderidder 0]

Hi Ivan

 

Might be a long boring post...

 

Long indeed, but most interesting

 

I might even start by learning from that Mustard guy.. I saw some really nice spearfishing examples in his Sardinia portfolio...

Guess I was sidetracked by his bikini girls pictures in that Sardinia portfolio

 

Best regards,

 

Bartus

 

PS: Take care not to get another pneumothorax.

[loftus 42]

Thank you for responding so logically and eloquently.

[craig 0]

Glad to see the other side of an emotional subject effectively argued.