What is the best Path to fast accurate macro?

[diverdon 1]

Currently I shoot a D-200 in a Subal housing with dual Ikealite DS-125 strobes. I only use two lenses the 10.5mm and the 105VR. A lot of my shots can be seen here: http://www.flickr.com/photos/diverdon most of them were shot with the 105mm VR lens.

 

Right after I download the days pics to the laptop I discard about 70% of them, mostly for focus. I am sure there is a better way to use the system I have, but I think there is an underlying problem with the D-200/105mm VR lens. I like macro shooting most, I just need to solve this focus issue. I think I have gone as far as I can go with the current system so I am considering some incremental or a total system upgrade.

 

So what I have is a lot of questions, I think many of them are of general interest so I will list them off.

 

For underwater macro shots which gives better faster more accurate focus Nikon D3 or Canon EOS-1Ds Mark III?

Which current production macro OEM lens would work best with each camera for under water use?

 

Will one of the Nikon full frame compatible lenses work better with the D-200 for fast accurate focus? This would be very nice to here because it would give me an incremental path to upgrade getting a new lens now for the next trip and then getting the D3 with new housing after they become a bit more common.

 

A unrelated (but possibly more controversial) question: I was checking out Getty images underwater images for sale the other day and they all seem to be more than 12MP resolution. Typical might be size/dimensions/dpi: 49.4 MB / 17 x 11.29 in. (5100 x 3388 px) / 300dpi Do you think these guys are really shooting those resolutions or are they upscaling in photoshop or similar?

[craig 0]

A D200, 105VR and Subal housing is certainly capable of good macro. Your problem apparently stems from your reliance on autofocus and your insistence on using it without figuring out how to make it work well. If your solution is to upgrade camera bodies I believe you are going about it wrong. Have you considered manual focus? Regardless of your approach, you have to learn how to use your system.

 

I don't think anyone is prepared to argue objectively which camera between the D3 and 1Ds3 offers better underwater autofocus performance. Neither camera has housings widely available and being dived yet. The two cameras differ significantly in resolution. If I were to consider starting from scratch, were completely insensitive to all other issues, and were insisting on full frame for macro, I would choose the 1Ds3. There is no reason not to take the 21MP and I'm sure the AF performance is adequate for macro. Canon has the advantage that all their macro lenses will offer full time manual focus override.

 

Changing from a DX sensor to full frame is not going to make macro easier. You will lose the apparent magnification due to the crop and will have to shoot longer lenses to get the same perspective. In order to have what you've grown accustomed to with the D200 and 105VR, you will either need a 1.4x teleconverter on your 105VR or you will need a Sigma 150. In either case, autofocus performance from the lens will not improve. I personally believe that full frame is good for macro but you will work harder in exchange for the potential image quality improvements.

 

If you wish to retain the advantages of DX sensors with improved AF then you should consider the D300. I don't think it's going to solve your AF macro issues but it will probably be easier for macro than the other bodies you've mentioned and it has essentially the D3 AF system.

[uw_nikon 0]

Technique has far more to do with quality images than high end equipment. (The nikon 105VR is an extremely sharp lens.)

 

You don't say what is bad about your images' focus:

-depth of field/plane of focus

-point of critical focus

-just plain out of focus

 

My macro technique:

-camera set to "single servo" AF

-use the center five AF areas (I shoot the D200 also)

-half press and hold shutter release (this establishes focus and then _locks focus_ until you fully depress the shutter release)

-recompose the shot with critical focus area(s) "in focus" (making slight adjustments in camera to subject distance and point of view to get the image you envisioned)

-take the image by fully pressing the shutter release

-repeat as necessary

 

Take Care,

ChrisS

Edited March 28, 2008 by uw_nikon

[sgietler 1]

hey don,

 

I would listen to what chris and craig said..

 

the D200/105mm VR lens is a great combo, and you should have no problem getting great shots with a lot of practise. I think the auto-focus works great with that setup. changing bodies won't solve your problem.

 

what mode are you shooting in? what aperture & shutter speed?

 

try practising on some flowers in your house with your camera in the housing, and your strobes. in bright light. use F16, 1/200th of a second, ISO 100. you might have to widen up your aperture a little bit to F8 or F11 for shots that are further away.

 

make sure you also closely follow chris's technique

 

good luck,

Scott

[diverdon 1]

Thank you Craig your first paragraph has a lot of very good info/ideas. I am in complete agreement that, you have to learn how to use your system. Yes I have considered manual focus, and rejected it. For macro use I simply can not see well enough to use it quickly enough for fast happening underwater action. For others it may be the solution for me it would be a step backwards.

 

I loved manual focus with the old Nikonos V and the 15MM lens. Set the lens to f8 ant he camera to ttl and focus to 2’ then hunt for a subject and make the necessary adjustments as you approached. But for the macro shooting I am doing today the depth of field is to shallow, and my eye site and reflexes make this impractical for me, I will defiantly get more good shots the way I am doing it now than that way. Others may have faster reflexes, better hand and eye coordination and may get better results. For me it has to be autofocus.

 

Of course I understand it will be necessary to go to a longer lens to maintain the same perspective with a full frame sensor. I also understand that this will further contract the depth of field, those things are determined by the laws of physics, not the performance of the camera electronics. Yes the D200 has settings which will not allow the shutter to trip until the camera is in focus. I have found that underwater or in low light with the 105mm lens that basically means that you just are not going to trip the shutter much, almost never at the peak of the action when you need it to go off. The 50, f1.4 solves this problem at weddings and such where you are shooting people. But, it’s not a good lens underwater.

 

I think there are a couple of good macro lens of appropriate for both DX sensor use and full frame sensor use, 70-180mm and a 200mm, I was hoping to get some opinions from those who have used those lenses as to weather they are faster or more accurate focusing than the 105mm.

[diverdon 1]

Chris,

 

Thanks that is a slight variation on the technique I have been using. The problem I am talking about is in the just plain out of focus category. I am aware that depth of field is controlled by f-stop and focal length & sensor size. What you seem to be doing different than I is using the AF lock to recompose. I have been using the joy stick button to steer the auto focus sensors to the subject area, the way I understand you method is that you believe the center 5 work best so you use them with the auto focus lock button to get best results. I will try this. I don’t know what to expect, and I’m not sure if I will be able to fully appreciate the extent to which your method helps till I next get wet. But I will print it out and start playing with it now.

 

Thanks,

Don

[diverdon 1]

Scott

 

Yes this system does take great shots, but is also seems to take a lot that are not in sharp focus, the ones that are in focus are pretty nice, when I have done my part in subject selection and composition.

 

What mode do I shoot in? I bought the Ikeaite ttl but it don't work. I don't know why, so I shoot manual and use the Histogram to show exposure, which works ok. If I am not trying to balance the light for a blue background or something I usually shoot 1/100-1/250 sec adjusting fstop to get good histogram at subject distance. Does that make sense?

 

I will certainly try Chris's technique.

 

And I am certainly listening very carefully to what everyone is saying, thats why I started this thread, because I need some new ideas and believe me when I tell you that I appreciate them.

 

Thanks,

Don

[BottomTime 4]

Hi Don,

 

I used to have the exact same issues your having. My camera used to hunt endlessly and I wasn't much better when I flipped the switch and tried working with manual focus. The problem I had is that there just wasn't enough light coming through the viewfinder to allow the camera (or myself) to determine the proper focus.

I highly doubt that changing your camera setup is going to correct your problem, and going to a full frame sensor will likely exacerbate the issue as longer focal lengths let even less light through to the sensors.

In my case, my problems magically went away when I invested in a bright focus light. Both the camera and I are much better at getting the focus right ever since I invested in one. So, it's something you might want to consider if you don't already have one.

 

Cheers,

 

Mike

[diverdon 1]

Mike

 

I have the fish eye focus lite, and you are correct it, with it on the focus is tack sharp. But it leave a pool of mixed yellow and white light in the center of the image, I can not get rid of it no matter what I do with the WB in raw because it is just a different color than the flash. It has always seemed to me that at settings like f8 and 1/100 sec that their should not be enough yellow light to bother me. But there it is, big as life right smack in the middle of the pic.

 

Perhaps I should try using the focus lite at a lower setting. What king of light do you use? What f stop and shutter are typical? do you have a yellow spot in some of your images?

 

Thanks,

Don

[craig 0]

I have used both the 70-180 and the 200 but neither on full frame. The 70-180 is a glorious lens but it is extremely slow at autofocus and I consider it a manual focus-only lens. The 200mm is really too long to use for most subjects with DX and is pretty long even for full frame. It also uses the screw-drive focus mechanism and I suspect it will be too slow as well. The longer the focal length, the more tricky AF is in my experience.

 

The Sigma 150mm is fast focusing and is f/2.8 despite its length. It will offer similar perspective to what you've been using. You might also consider the 105VR with full frame (or the Canon 100mm) as the wider perspective may help you get more keepers.

 

There are plenty of shooters who use AF with macro so it's certainly possible. With Nikon you really need to avoid the screw-drive AF lenses if you are committed to using AF.

 

The Fisheye focus light shouldn't be leaving visible hot spots in your images. Rather than turn the light down you might turn it up or replace the 20W bulb with a 10W and run it full on. Dimming a halogen makes it yellow. You could also consider the Fisheye LED version which I like. It is far bluer than the halogen so it can be harder to see its effect but it still provides light. It has the advantage of using AA batteries that last forever on a charge and doesn't need spare bulbs. I wish it were stronger but I believe it's adequate. I'm hoping someone will do an even more appealing LED focus light soon. We shouldn't be using halogen for that anymore.

[james 0]

If you can see the yellow spot from the focus light in your photos, you are using too slow of a shutter speed.

 

Regards,

James Wiseman

[BottomTime 4]

Don,

 

I use a S&S FX15 focus light and it's generally enough for what I need. The fisheye you use is definitely a better light. I do not have an issue with yellow hues or spots being introduced into my photo's. Although I vary my settings all over the map depending on what effect I'm trying to achieve, I generally use a shutter speed of 1/250 s and f stop between f8 & f16 at ISO100. However, I'm one of those rare souls who still has a film rig (hangs his head in shame... does ordering a new subal D300 rig redeem me?) and maybe it's less sensitive to color temperature (shouldn't be).

 

If you're seeing a color cast or bright spot then you'll want to change the balance of ambient vs. strobe light so that you're primary light source are the strobes. IE, boost your shutter speed and stop down. That should solve your problem. If you're trying to get a nice blue or green water background (I get tired of Inky black backgrounds), then you can do a Craig suggests and find a dimmer bulb or you can also try pulling back your focus light so that it has less influence on your image or improvise a diffuser. You should be able to experiment at home with this rather than waiting till your next dive trip and it's a whole lot cheaper than a new D3 or 1D MKIII

 

Cheers,

 

Mike

[sgietler 1]

hey Don,

 

like james and BottomTime said, you shouldn't be seeing the focus light in the photo... what ISO are you using?

 

for regular macro shots (e.g. - nudies), use ISO 200 (base ISO for the D300), F14-F22, 1/250th. no way you should see the focus light at these settings.

 

 

oh, when I was asking what mode you shoot in, I meant M,P,A, or S. I assume most people shoot in "M" (manual mode), but sometimes I see people shooting in A or S mode with strobes, which surprises me.

 

like Mike said, practise at home!

 

and sorry your ike TTL is not working, it really should work, you should post that in a separate thread and see if its user error, or if you need to send something back to Ike.

 

scott

[ce4jesus 1]

There are also shutter activated focus lights which shut off when the strobe fires.

[Glasseye Snapper 47]

What about the focus light in the DS125 itself. Won't it provide enough light to focus, especially since you have two of them, or is a dedicated focus light just that much better.

 

Bart

[eskasi 1]

I would not use those (DS125 or any Strobe aiming lights) if I could help it. Pointing the strobes directly at the subject would probably bring out too much backscatter. Those are meant to be aiming lights. I have however used them on occasion to lock focus and then angled them away slightly before taking the shot.

Edited March 29, 2008 by eskasi

[diverdon 1]

Craig-Thank you again its nice to know that the lenses I was thinking about will not be the answer in so far as the speed issue is concerned.

 

So many of my shots are time critical. Darting fish or the need to keep a group of non-photographers in site, often mean many of the best shots I have a chance at must be taken in an instant or the opportunity is gone. It sounds like I am not going to get any better in the speed dept. than the 105mm I am using now. And thats exactly the information I was looking for.

 

If you can see the yellow spot from the focus light in your photos, you are using too slow of a shutter speed.

 

Regards,

James Wiseman

Thats what I thought. Indeed you must be correct. I will have to reexamine all my precepts and assumptions. I must have made a series of errors which led me astray in this matter.

 

hey Don,

 

like james and BottomTime said, you shouldn't be seeing the focus light in the photo... what ISO are you using?

 

for regular macro shots (e.g. - nudies), use ISO 200 (base ISO for the D300), F14-F22, 1/250th. no way you should see the focus light at these settings.

oh, when I was asking what mode you shoot in, I meant M,P,A, or S. I assume most people shoot in "M" (manual mode), but sometimes I see people shooting in A or S mode with strobes, which surprises me.

 

scott

Mostly ISO 100. Unless I forget to tape the strobe connection into the hotshoe or there is some other reason that the strobes are not working I have been shooting in M not P, A or S.

 

What about the focus light in the DS125 itself. Won't it provide enough light to focus, especially since you have two of them, or is a dedicated focus light just that much better.

 

Bart

I have to agree with eskasi, I have not found that works well except in certain situations on night dives.

 

There are also shutter activated focus lights which shut off when the strobe fires.

I am not aware of anything like that for underwater use, do you have more info you can provide?

[spongebob 0]

fantasea makes a "nano focus light" that shuts off when it sees the strobe fire...

 

i attempted to use a different model LED focus light last trip...never did get it positioned to be much help with focus but it was a nice white light <_<

 

for me shooting (focusing) macro is just an experience thing, single area focus, AF-S but AF-C if the shutter won't fire or the lens does not re-focus...

 

a 105mm is always going to be harder to focus than say a 60mm macro so maybe a shorter lens is the answer...

[eskasi 1]

http://www.reefphoto.com/index.php?main_pa...roducts_id=1470

 

This is the light that shuts off when the strobe fires....same model with 10bar but different name.

 

They work...but as with everything, it depends on the scenario (Some say that this light is far too weak). Like the other members said, with the right settings, the hotspot should not show.....but I will admit, even I am not convinced always and at times, I fear backscatter from the focus light itself.

 

I believe being aware of the situation helps.... It may not be possible to reshoot the same subject over ...but if you can, play with the settings....experience is your friend!

[diverdon 1]

http://www.reefphoto.com/index.php?main_pa...roducts_id=1470

 

This is the light that shuts off when the strobe fires....same model with 10bar but different name.

 

They work...but as with everything, it depends on the scenario (Some say that this light is far too weak). Like the other members said, with the right settings, the hotspot should not show.....but I will admit, even I am not convinced always and at times, I fear backscatter from the focus light itself.

 

I believe being aware of the situation helps.... It may not be possible to reshoot the same subject over ...but if you can, play with the settings....experience is your friend!

 

 

 

I think both of those lights work with the pre flash emitted by many prosumer cameras houses in transparent cases not the main flash. I do not thing the electronics would work with the single main flash my DSLR emits. I do not thing there is a good way to get a preflash out of a ikelite DS-125. If their is I do not know it.

 

Still the idea had merit, it would be great if some one came up with a way to use the cameras internal focus lite to trigger an external focus lite.