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Matti

40D and 2nd Curtain Sync

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Hi There,

 

I have recently purchased a Canon 40D (yesterday in fact ;) ), and I have noticed something which is a pain, it seems that you cannot fire any external strobe on 2nd curtain sync unless it is a Canon EX series speedlite, even though the external strobe uses Canons E-TTL protocalls. As I still have my 20D for underwater use its not an issue at the moment ( the 20D will allow any strobe connected to be fired on 2nd curtain sync) but it will be when I get a housing for the 40D. I t seems that Canon only want you to use their flash guns. which I can see could be problem for people also use studio strobes etc made by third parties which can use E_TTL protocalls but will not be able to fire on the 2nd curtain sync. :D

 

 

http://www.mattiovaska.com

Edited by Matti

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I have recently purchased a Canon 40D (yesterday in fact ;) ),
Hi Matti, Congrats on the new camera. :D I've been wondering the same thing. I have this image in my head that I can't figure out how to make without the second curtain sync. I'm wondering if the S&S TTL converter for the 250 will allow us to do it. Since it hasn't shipped yet I'm clueless. I've purchased a couple of 40D books that expand on the limited manual trying to find it, no luck yet. If I'm reading correctly Canon's implementaion of the second curtain fires the strobe twice at both ends of the exposure. I'm in over my head here but that's doesn't make any sense to me. If you find the answer please let us know.

 

Steve

Edited by williamshs

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( the 20D will allow any strobe connected to be fired on 2nd curtain sync)

 

Hi,

 

I owned a Subal C20 for my Canon 20D and I have never been able to fire underwater strobe

on 2nd curtain without plugin a Mathias Heinrich converter (via cnf function). :D

 

In books you'll hardly find between the line that only canon compatible strobe can be fired on

2nd curtains.

 

The Canon flash system's compatibility is one of the point of my switch ;) .

With Nikon, wathever can be fire at first or second curtains.

 

Regards

Stéphane

http://pagesperso-orange.fr/sandon/index.htm

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Hi There,

 

I have contacted Canon Australia via a phone call and one of the Techies is looking into it, so I will have to wait and see what they come back with.

 

Steph,

 

With my 20D i was always able to fire third party strobes via the camera settings so this has and is working fine within my Ikelite housing (1st or 2nd curtain syncs), but it seems that Canon has either dropped the ball or trying to push everyone to upgrade to the new 580EX II flash gun which gives all this functionality. But as it stands its a right royal PITA.

Edited by Matti

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The Canon flash system's compatibility is one of the point of my switch mad.gif .

With Nikon, wathever can be fire at first or second curtains.

 

Though with the Nikon it seems to me that TTL is not available on second curtain - which strikes me as kind of odd.

 

(Note I may be wrong here - please don't get mislead by my error if so!.)

 

Not a problem to me in the water as I don't use TTL at all, and in fact in the water my set-up is fired second curtain by default.

 

Paul C

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Is anyone aware of a way to pester Canon for a firmware update?

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I called Canon and the support guy immediately asked if my name was Matti. I guess they don't have too many support staff in Australia, as it was the general line for hardware support of all Canon cameras.

 

The guy promptly told me he'd dealt with the issue yesterday and that the functionality was not possible.

 

This is very annoying.

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As I read my 40D manual you can set the built-in flash to 2nd Curtain Sync. If so, those people who are using external strobes with their housing with fibre optic sync cords (eg Seatool 40D housing) should be able to shoot using 2nd Curtain Sync as the external strobes are triggered by the built in flash.

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I can confirm that 2nd curtain sync is possible if you use the Sea and Sea or Heinrich's converter between your camera/housing and flash.

 

I tested the Sea and Sea converter with my 5D and Subal housing + DS51 and Ike DS125 strobes. When the flash mode on the converter is set in either eTTL or Manual mode, and the camera is set in the Cfn menu to 2nd curtain, the flashes will fire on second curtain sync.

 

Cheers

James

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In support of Steve's comment:

 

If I'm reading correctly Canon's implementaion of the second curtain fires the strobe twice at both ends of the exposure.

 

According to a book (guide) written by David D. Busch on the Canon 40D (pg 80), with regards to built-in flash function settings, when 2nd curtain sync is selected:

 

"the flash will still fire as soon as the shutter opens, and then triggers a second flash at the end of the exposure.........."

 

hth,

b

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That's what I experienced too James.

 

The "problem" also is non existent for Ikelite owner because of the built'in

converter.

 

Not so long ago in the old days of film Canon's choice was also problematic

with strobe because Canon film's TTL is not the same as Nikon.

 

For that I purchased a Subtronic, compatible with both Nikon and Canon film

TTL by now I use it in manual on my Nikon :D

 

Regards

Stéphane

http://pagesperso-orange.fr/sandon/

 

 

 

Bobf, the problem of Matti is to use an underwater strobe : not a housed eTTL Strobe !

;)

 

Regards

Stéphane

http://pagesperso-orange.fr/sandon/

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Damien, the tech guy that you must of spoke to said that he was getting back to me <_< and that the issue had not be resolved so I will do another follow-up call either later today or next week. I have also sent an e-mail to a Canon Rep so I will have to see what happens there as well. Hopefully something good will happen and a firmware update to allow these options be selected regardless of the make of the strobe attached.

 

http://www.mattiovaska.com

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In support of Steve's comment:

According to a book (guide) written by David D. Busch on the Canon 40D (pg 80), with regards to built-in flash function settings, when 2nd curtain sync is selected:

 

 

 

hth,

b

 

I just tried it with my 40D and the internal flash. Put it in manual mode and selected a four second shutter speed. The camera fired a small flash at the beginning of the exposure and a longer one at the end. How odd, I thought. Then I attached my 580EX II. Did the same thing! How odd . . .

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All Canon cameras since the D30 do that. They fire a preflash at the beginning of the exposure and the main flash at the end. Nikon cameras do it too.

 

Cheers

James

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All Canon cameras since the D30 do that. They fire a preflash at the beginning of the exposure and the main flash at the end. Nikon cameras do it too.

 

Cheers

James

Thanks James, I thought so, but I don't understand why. How does that work to an advantage? I understand second curtain but not the first flash. ;)

 

Steve

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Does the preflash at the start of exposure allow the system to calculate required flash time (before quench) thus allowing the quench and shutter close to be fairly coincident.

 

Or when would the flash kick off (in second curtain).

 

(note this is something of a wild guess)

 

Paul C

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All Canon cameras since the D30 do that. They fire a preflash at the beginning of the exposure and the main flash at the end. Nikon cameras do it too.

 

Well, I can say this -- you do need to plan the picture then because on my four second exposure of my hand, there is a very annoying "preflash ghost" along side the "second curtain" properly exposed subject. That would be very annoying in a real photograph!

 

Mike

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I spoken to Canon Australia again, and I have been told that the only option for 2nd curtain sync with the 40D (via the camera settings) is to have a 580EX MKII and bad luck if you want to use anything else . So hopefully someone can do a firmware hack get this silly concept removed .

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Well, I can say this -- you do need to plan the picture then because on my four second exposure of my hand, there is a very annoying "preflash ghost" along side the "second curtain" properly exposed subject. That would be very annoying in a real photograph!

 

 

Really?

 

The shutter curtain should be closed when the preflash fires, so I'm guessing that exposure was burned in by something else....

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Really?

 

The shutter curtain should be closed when the preflash fires, so I'm guessing that exposure was burned in by something else....

 

Perhaps -- maybe I jumped to conclusions -- will have to play with it more later. Tpmorrow I'm off to Indonesia for a month.

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I had a play with my 1DsII housing and Sea and Sea ttl converter yesterday and can confirm that second curtain sync does work. Set it up for a 2 sec exposure, and then watch for two distinct flashes.

 

I can also confirm that if you use a 580EX in a Subal housing with S6 connection and all six pins in your housing wired, you can get some really great features. But shooting in bright light (F14) the flash doesn't recycle fast enough for fast action shooting. It would be great for fast action shooting in low light though.

 

Cheers

James

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A few posts back I reported that author David D. Busch (Canon EOS 40D guide to digital slr photography) stated that when 2nd curtain sync is selected :

 

"the flash will still fire as soon as the shutter opens, and then triggers a second flash at the end of the exposure.........."

 

Ryan however reported in a follow up post that this first flash was actually a preflash, occurring prior to the shutter opening.

 

I was able to contact David Busch and he agreed with Ryan. Mr. Busch went on to state that his sentence should have read:

 

"the flash will still fire as soon as the shutter release button is depressed fully (but before the shutter begins to open), so that exposure can be calculated. Then, a second flash is triggered at the end of the exposure..."

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I spoken to Canon Australia again, and I have been told that the only option for 2nd curtain sync with the 40D (via the camera settings) is to have a 580EX MKII and bad luck if you want to use anything else .

 

That's correct. But FYI, you can get 2nd curtain with a 430EX flash but you have to select on the flash and not on the camera. Not that it solves anything for underwater... :)

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Well, I can say this -- you do need to plan the picture then because on my four second exposure of my hand, there is a very annoying "preflash ghost" along side the "second curtain" properly exposed subject. That would be very annoying in a real photograph!

 

Would your hand have been visible even without a flash? If so, explains the ghosting even if the first flash precedes shutter opening.

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Did anyone ever work out an answer to this? It's so frustrating! <_< Canon are letting us down here - rear-curtain would seem such a simple function to include.

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