Really Bad Light & Motion experience....

[Drew 0]

John Doe,

While I don't know why this thread was resurrected after 3 years, I agree discretion is a good thing. BUT emails are not confidential unless agreed upon BEFORE starting an exchange in the form of a NDA. Disclaimers at the end of an email aren't yet legally enforceable. Furthermore, if a representative is afraid of their answer to queries about their products will somehow make them look bad, then maybe they should draft, read and redraft before sending out? More importantly if everyone kept quiet about bad service etc, then something like a H2O/Luzansky debacle happens and many people lose. The forums are here to talk about equipment, including functionality and reliability, plus how dealers/reps/manufacturers support their products.

We often hear about the bad but also I've found that many people do tout their dealer/products when they are satisfied as well. Obviously it's not as often as complaints, but that may also be because a product is suppose to work and not have customer complaints, and if there are complaints about the quality of a product, then they shouldn't be afraid to publicize findings.

[Steve Douglas 16]

On this, I strongly agree with Drew. Great service deserves to be advertised and bad or reluctant service needs it as well. I have bitten my lip though out this entire thread since I was once sponsored by L & M and there is so much more I could say, but since the last two posts on the thread regarded the confidentiality of emails, Drew is 100% correct in that communications between company and client demonstrate how the customer is treated. I guess Drew, that the reason a similar thread was resurrected is because it was never properly dealt with in the first place. History tends to repeat itself.

Steve

[Nick Hope 151]

"H2O/Luzansky debacle"?

[John Doe 0]

Drew/Steve,

 

I also strongly agree that good/bad service needs to be yelled about from the roof tops. If company X provides lousy service and/or bad service they deserve to be "outed" as it were. If company Y provides an excellent service and/or product then they deserve the high praise that will be generated by talking about it on a public Internet forum. Its all good in that respect.

 

However.........

 

to publicly post emails on the Internet that a person has sent you in private in good faith is just not right. Whether it has a disclaimer attached or not is not the point. One may argue the legalities of the situation but life is not all about "legalese". In my book its all about the spirit of the agreement.... a gentleman's agreement if you will. Those emails are private correspondence between 2 parties and should be given the respect due as such. If L&M wanted to publicly discuss problems and issues with clients i am sure they would probably post everything here. Clients can be difficult and unreasonable. I am not saying that is the case here at all so dont misunderstand me here on this point. We haven't heard L&M's side of all this so perhaps we shouldn't be so hasty to make a judgement.

 

Things go wrong. No one wants things to go wrong but they do. The real crux of the issue is how they are dealt with and in this case it "appears" that L&M have been a bit tardy. SO they got the bad press they "may" deserve. But to go posting emails sent in private between the parties is a form of retribution from the frustrated client. How can that be right?

 

Two wrongs never made a right.

 

It appears that L&M slipped. From information we have it looks like the client tried to sort it out with L&M. Things dragged on and the client does not get his idea of satisfaction - so he thinks to himself ...... "I'll shaft these guys.... I'll go post all their correspondence to me about this whole thing on the Internet....that should screw em" which in my book makes the client worse then the company who has dropped the ball. Its not black and white however, many shades of grey in there. But plastering private correspondence all over the Internet is just plain crude.

 

YMMV

 

I've been reading Wetpixel since 2002 and find it a valuable resource. I hope this forum sticks to the moral high ground and does not get down in the gutter. Face it - some forums on the net are really friendly and a great place to "hang out" on the net. Other forums are horrible places to be with all the nastiness that goes on. I only raise this issue that we are discussing in the hope that we all decide that we want to keep WP a really great friendly place and the forum does not degrade into questionable ethics. I am all for free speech ......i'll probably get bagged for this post, but that's your right and if that's how an individual wants to approach it then so be it, but to go post email conversations on here that we had in private is just not something i can accept as "fair play" and the fact that those posts are still here 3 years later tells me the mods here have no issue with anyone posting their "dirty laundry". If i am wrong on that last point then why are the posts still up? I want to come here and read about all things video underwater. Its valuable to hear about a manufacturer that seems to be under performing - they certainly wont get my business - but i find it disturbing that individuals can get a bit pee'd off with company X or Y then start posting all the correspondence sent in private between the parties and then we all start putting in the knife. The Internet age is well and truly upon us and it looks like all the etiquette we learnt in the 20th century is out the window and we can hide behind our screen names on line and do things that most of us know is probably not right.

 

John Doe.

[Drew 0]

John Doe

You are certainly entitled to your opinion and that's the point of forums. I personally think that emails aren't private unless stated so and agreed upon by all parties. Sure it'd be nice if the sender is asked whether it's ok but that's more about courtesy than about ethics. I don't think it's unethical to repost non-confidential correspondence and any employee of mine who makes the mistake of assuming confidentiality and not draft a proper response with public exposure in mind would not be my employee for long.

Conversely, if someone doesn't post emails to back themselves up about the bad service, then they'd also have a lot less credibility about treatment. As for fairness, whenever there are complaints about any companies, I do try to contact them to notify them about the posts. I think it's the best way to balance things and they often choose not to reply in public. More often than not, it's difficult to counter complaints without a good PR person and the small companies tend not to have the best PR people. That's the price of being in business in the new internet model.

There's no hiding from exposure because just as it's easy for someone to ruin a reputation, it's also harder to hide from being exposed for bad service and products. I personally would rather purchase from a company that isn't afraid to admit they have issues and show people that things are being done to rectify them. The whole secret corporate veil model may still exist in the top tier companies, but smaller and medium companies don't have that luxury anymore.

 

Nick:

 

http://wetpixel.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=38889

[loftus 42]

Never put anything in writing you don't want others to know ( Anthony Weiner will back me up on that), and conversely always get in writing whatever you don't want someone to deny.

[John Doe 0]

Well as you say the point of forums is debate and information sharing. We'll have to agree to disagree on this one :-)

 

As i said we are well and truly entrenched in the Internet age now so it looks like a new way of working is upon us like it or not!

 

I think the lesson learnt here is becareful what you put in an email because it can (and sometime does) appear anywhere.

 

Thanks for the level headed discussion.

 

JD

anxiously awaiting Scarlet

[Steve Douglas 16]

Actually, for me, the lesson to be learned is to do the research about a company's reputation for many things, customer service, quality of their products, long term support for discontinued products, responsiveness to concerns, participation in the community such as we have here, professional and consumer reviews and anecdotal information.

 

John, most of those in this forum are fairly savvy and when some disgruntled individual with only a couple of previous forum interactions posts a rant about a company that is completely inconsistent with the majority of user experiences, they get politely shot down in short order. But there are also a couple of companies who have had continuous complaints regarding them over the years and for many of the same reasons. When the type of concern is repeatedly expressed by a variety of divers and shooters, it is important to pay attention and avoid doing business with those companies. When some one tells you that you have bad breath, you can write them off as being rude. If ten people tell you you have bad breath, it is time to brush your teeth, gargle and pop a mint in. The H20 photo situation could have gone on for a longer time if it were not for those divers who posted their issues.

 

Steve

Edited September 10, 2011 by Steve Douglas

[sharronsuss 0]

I have had some different experiences with L&M i delt with jim and trish in the past and had numerous things serviced and changed to a very high standard. I do however think that L&M do not stock old parts in an attempt to force you to buy their newer gear which is annoying. I bought a remote pro monitor from the US (I am in the UK and it was cheaper for me to buy it from the states) I had changed one in the past to PAL from NTSC at a small cost. I tried to get this done but they no longer stock any of parts. Also I wanted a base plate for a mako housing which i had lost, they no longer had this item in stock rendering the housing useless as i can't mount a video camera in the housing. for people who have stuck with L&M you would think they would keep parts or have the ability to make new ones!

 

[/anyone want to buy a L&M remote pro monitor complete??]

How much do you want for it? Does it have any cables? Is it still NTSC? (I'm in California.) How old is it - has it been used at all, since you couldn't convert it to PAL? Does it work - is the battery OK? All I REALLY need right now is a standard short housing/monitor connector cable, but I know the monitor's days are numbered.

 

My understanding is that the battery can still be replaced but the main circuit board is no longer available so when that goes then goodnight monitor. Of course they told me at one point that the bulbs for my HIDs were "no longer available" and it turned out Welch Allyn still made and sold them...) I do love the little submarine (a Bluefin for the Sony HDR/HC5,7,9, bought new wa-a-ay back in late 2007.) But I don't want to buy a monitor back or anything else from L&M again. Wonder if they even still stock o-rings for the Bluefin...

[Steve Douglas 16]

I'm surprised that there has been no response from L & M. They must monitor feedback on this and other diving sites.

steve

[Pete L 48]

Steve, maybe they just don't care about there public image. I think they make a great product & apart from my battery issues in my lights, I am very happy with the rest of my l&m products.

My main issue is the lack of response from them. My last email has been unanswered now for 1 week!

I just wish they would respond & I would be a very happy customer.

Cheers pete

[TheRealDrew 0]

Never put anything in writing you don't want others to know ( Anthony Weiner will back me up on that) .

 

 

Not to nitpick, but he didn't write anything

[JackConnick 75]

Steve, maybe they just don't care about there public image. I think they make a great product & apart from my battery issues in my lights, I am very happy with the rest of my l&m products.

My main issue is the lack of response from them. My last email has been unanswered now for 1 week!

I just wish they would respond & I would be a very happy customer.

Cheers pete

 

I am NOT a representative from L&M, but I am a dealer. I think your questions and issues would best be solved by consulting your local dealer. As far as answering emails, well, they are a big company, and Paul is on the road a lot. Many companies don't have the time or resources to scan forums for questions posted here or elsewhere.

 

Jack

[Steve Douglas 16]

Gates is a big company as well, and they are also on the road a lot. However, they respond very quickly. A big company should have more than 1 person available to answer phone calls or emails.

Steve

[Pete L 48]

Hi Jack, i actually bought my lights from eric cheng but they were sent directly from L&M & i paid them directly also. I have been dealing with them from the start about my issues so i havn't dealt with my aussie dealer on this subject.

All my correspondence has been direct to L&M.

Now my particular situation is that L&M have the opportunity to turn me into a life long customer here if they were to handle me correctly. What i mean by that is, my sony sr12/bluefin housing is the first video camera & first underwater housing i have ever owned. So i don't have anything to compare it to, however, i am very happy with the quality of the unit & how easy it is to use it & what features it has. I still don't know how to use it to its full potential yet.

I did buy this setup second hand by the way, but it had done about 70 dives & when i bought it i thought it was brand new, it was in such good condition. So i went & bought the L&M 110 degree wide lens & the L&M super macro lens. Both second hand but in as new condition.

Then i purchased my sunray 2000x lights as i said above.

So you see the trend here, i am becoming L&M branded on my own accord & i have no problem with that until the poor service started to creep in. I don't really have a problem with the fact that my lights aren't working as they should as not everything is perfect, however it is how the situation is handled that will dictate my future with L&M products.

It has gotten to the point that i now have to write my email & then copy & paste that to create six or seven of the same emails to basically bombard the person who i deal with in order to get an answer.

Now, where they are holding onto me is that through some of my dealings i decided to purchase a few small items, such as spare Orings & monitor shade etc. Nothing too expensive here but stuff that i wanted. I didn't get a price from them but when my lights came back from there first attempt at a repair, the items i asked for were inside the box & no charge!

So that i call good customer service but yet that either don't answer emails or they take weeks to get back to me.

So now my lights have been returned for a second time & i am getting replacement batteries (2x sets).

Considering it took them 8 weeks to do the fix last time, we will see how long it takes this time & to be honest i would be willing to bet that i don't get 4 batteries back.

My last email was to ask how much another set of batteries were, to give me three sets in total & to price a float for my housing, all of which i am happy to pay for & in no way expect these to be free, yet still no response.

So if i can't buy something off them for a few hundred dollars, why would i spend thousands on a housing when i finally upgrade?

The other thing is, i found when i used my super macro lens that with my 2000x lights on low setting that some of the clips are still to bright & i am very seriously considering purchasing 2 lower power lights for my macro lens. Of course they were going to be the sola 1200s, however i am now thinking of another brand.

So all i am asking them for is to respond in a timely manner to emails & i would be a no questions asked L&M customer for life. Pity they are on the edge of losing me as i am very frustrated with them....

Cheers Pete.

[peterbkk 110]

The other thing is, i found when i used my super macro lens that with my 2000x lights on low setting that some of the clips are still to bright & i am very seriously considering purchasing 2 lower power lights for my macro lens.

 

Best way to lower the power of your lights is to diffuse them with a couple of tops from Pringle chip tubes and some rubber bands...

[Pete L 48]

Ha, that's funny pete! I'm going through a pringle binge at the moment! I will give that a try when my lights return. I knew there was a greater cause for my pringle devotion!!!

It all makes sense now.

Doesnt the universe work in mysterious ways.....

Cheers pete.

[jcclink 8]

Sounds like a lot of folks would be much happier with a Gates. Wondering what draws one to L&M considering all the issues described in above posts. My own limited experience with L&M points to eventual electronic problems. Gates is more or less bullet proof.

[Pete L 48]

Mine was purely a cost thing, i got a virtually brand new setup for around a quarter of the cost of new.

I would be very interested to look into gates when i do eventually upgrade, however that won't be for some time i think.

Cheers Pete.

[Steve Douglas 16]

Rather than a Pringles top, I wonder if any of the old diffusers that came with the UK 600 HID lights wouldn't fit. I may have a few around here and will look if anyone wants them; let me know by PM and I will mail them out. Free.

[Pete L 48]

Well looks like the folk at L&M have picked up the game abit in the last couple of weeks.

I hadn't heard back from them about my initial query after i sent my lights back but then i got an automated email to say that my lights had arrived.

I left it for a week or so & then sent an email to enquire about the progress & got a response the next day. I then responded to that email & got another response the very next day! Now today i got an email to say my lights are on there way home with a tracking number...

Very happy so far & hopefully the lights will be fixed.

I wonder if the sale of amphibico to aquatica has made them pull there socks up?

Lets hope so...

Cheers Pete.

[Steve Douglas 16]

Pete,

Glad you got things sorted out; a shame you've had to wait as long as you did to get a response but, at least, things are now on the road to settlement. I wonder if Todd, who started this thread, has gotten his L & M gear straightened out.

I doubt the sale of Amphibico to Aquatica made any difference as Amphibico was the only other major housing manufacturer other than Gates to make housings for cams above the entry level consumer camcorders. The last time L & M made a high end housing was for the original Sony FX-1 and Z1-U. It wasn't a smart decision in my opinion but it was the one that was made. Therefore, L & M has nothing to really fear from Amphibico because they do not make housings for the higher end shooter.

Steve

[Pete L 48]

Hi Steve, yeah i'm glad it is sorted now & i am a bit excited to be getting my lights back soon.

Cheers Pete.

[Pete L 48]

For those who have been waiting for an outcome, my lights arrived back today & so i promptly filled up the sink & dropped them in for a test run & wouldn't you believe it, they are not fixed!!!!

Not happy! So i have sent a not so nice email back to L&M & will hopefully hear back from them soon as i am pretty well fed up with these lights. I have actually asked for a refund or swap them for 2 sola 4000's so i will see how that goes.

I may be looking for another brand of lights very soon.....

Very unhappy.....

Cheers Pete.

[jonny shaw 16]

So is that twice that you have sent them and they have sent them back without the problems being fixed?