Boat lands on Surf break in Bali

[Graham Abbott 0]

Check out this article and photo of a possible ilegal boat that landed on Bali's big wave Padang Padang recently.

 

Yep, there is also pristine reef where it landed too!

 

http://www.asia.ripcurl.com/index.php?aid=272

Edited July 19, 2008 by Graham Abbott

[shawnh 0]

That Sucks! Graham, using the word "illegal" and fishing in the same sentence in Indonesia is an oxymoron! Is any fishing in Indo really treated as "illegal" and Indo fleets are synonymous with "illegal" in most foreign waters

[frogfish 5]

...using the word "illegal" and fishing in the same sentence in Indonesia is an oxymoron! Is any fishing in Indo really treated as "illegal" and Indo fleets are synonymous with "illegal" in most foreign waters

 

Not really a very helpful attitude, Shawn. You did read the piece Graham linked, didn't you - including the part that said that the shop that washed up with a hold full of (almostly certainly illegally-caught) sharks was a Taiwanese vessel, not Indonesian?

 

Yes, there are very serious problems with enforcement of fishery regulations in Indonesia - nobody is going to give you a prize for figuring that out. Different pieces of the Indonesian government often work at cross purposes, and there are severe resource limits. Shockingly, some people even believe cracking down on illegal fishing shouldn't necessarily be the highest spending priority in a country with one of the world's highest rates of childhood blindness, where 30% of children don't receive basic immunizations, and total per capita health expenditures of less than US$80 per capita - less than 25% the figure for Thailand (WHO data, 2005, purchasing power parity corrected). It's hard to understand, I know - you'd think the government would take the needs and interests of visiting surfers and divers more seriously, but some people just have unreasonable priorities.

 

Of course, casting slurs is always easier than supporting real conservation work, or doing it. People working to try to solve these problems love to be slammed by self-regarding, condescending Americans - especially in light of the wonderful job the US has done protecting its northeast cod banks, west coast sardine fisheries, and the great job it is today protecting the West Coast fisheries for wild salmon. And it was great that no Americans joined in the free-for-all consumption frenzy that has nearly wiped out the Patagonian toothfish - it's so impressive that no restaurants in Denver ever served Chilean seabass. Third worlders who just can't get their act together can only stand in admiration, Shawn - so keep up the good work!

 

R.

[underwatercolours 0]

Not really a very helpful attitude, Shawn...so keep up the good work!

 

I'm always a bit set back when I read newspaper articles like this, but I sat waaaaay back in my chair when reading your response. You're defensive and equally condescending attitude helps this topic even less.

[shawnh 0]

Hi Robert.

 

It is obvious that I unintentionally offended you with my casual remark. I would like to apologize to you and anyone else who may have taken offense to my comments. My post was meant part in jest and part as statement of my frustration with the rampant illegal fishing going virtually unchecked in this region. I was pointing out that this boat being singled out as "illegal" was slightly humorous (as much as anything related to this sad state can be) in light of the extent of illegal fishing going on within and without Indonesia. I could have approached this in a more sensitive manner.

 

On a personal note Robert, I don't know you and would not criticize you personally. I would ask for and expect the same in return. An issue with my post should not be treated as an issue with me and a personal attack is entirely unnecessary.

 

Anyone who actually knows me will vouch for the for the following:

For the record I support an incredible amount of "real conservation work" and I "do it". In fact I am doing extensive conservation work in Indonesia on my own dime. Furthermore, I heavily support people trying to solve problems as I am one of them. I did not slam any conservation group in my post. I actually am not a "self-regarding, condescending American"...I am not even American. Like you, I am deeply distressed by some of the US fisheries management issues. I do not eat any kind of seafood (nor does my family) and I encourage everyone I meet to take a sustainable approach to seafood consumption. Finally, I quit a much higher paying job to dedicate my life to marine conservation this year.

 

Robert, again I apologize that my post offended you. I hope you see clear to reserve personal judgement.

 

-shawn

[Guest echeng]

Shawn - you don't need to apologize to Robert. If Robert had a message to share with us, it was clouded by an incredibly rude and unwarranted delivery. Clearly, he has some other frustrations about *something* and is taking it out on someone he doesn't even know in person. Ironic that Robert cast slurs at Americans while accusing you of casting slurs. I guess it is indeed easier to cast slurs than to do real conservation work (although knowing Robert personally, I guess he does both. ).

[DavidScubadiver 0]

Okay, so the response was a bit aggressive. I liked its content and think it would make a fine post if not directed to anybody in particular. Casts a different light/puts a new perspective on things.

 

Now I shall sit back and wait for someone to call the non-seafood eating family, self-righteous.

[frogfish 5]

I wasn't personally offended by anything anyone said, and nobody needs to apologize to me. I will apologize to Shawn if he thinks that I intended to insult him personally, since there seems to be a consensus here that my remarks could be taken personally. That wasn't my intent.

 

As Eric knows very well, I'm an American too. Since I live in Indonesia most of the time, I might react more sensitively when other Americans make "casual" remarks that seem to lightly condemn an entire country and its people, implicitly devaluing the hard work of many Indonesians working in marine conservation for the Indonesian government, international and local NGOs, even if such a comment was ostensibly meant "in jest". My own take is that as Americans, we don't have a lot to brag about when it comes to protecting fisheries. That certainly made me feel that Shawn's remarks were all the more inappropriate, but Shawn and Eric and UnderwaterColors may not share my perception of the failures of fishery management policy and enforcement in the US.

 

Eric is also correct that I don't know Shawn personally. I don't know why that would be relevant. If I did know Shawn, then I could say that there are comments about Indonesia and Indonesians he could make in the context of a private conversation among a group of American friends that I might find insensitive and ill-informed, but which I would not - in such a private context - find grossly objectionable. My point here would be that the internet is not a dive shop or a bar or somebody's living room, and this is not a private conversation among friends. Indonesians read wetpixel too.

 

I'm personally confused why Eric would find my remarks in response to Shawn's post to be "incredibly rude", but is apparently not bothered by Shawn's casual slamming Indonesia, its people and their legal system. But there you go, I guess. But to make my position very clear, I did not intend to defend the Indonesian legal system, nor do I intend to do so now.

 

What I said was that comments like Shawn's (whether "casual" or "in jest", or whatever) are not helpful in addressing the very real problems of enforcement of marine conservation and fishery management rules. The reason I said that is because comments like Shawn's really aren't helpful at all. Of course I do realize that many people simply wouldn't care about this, nor would they worry for an instant about offending Indonesian conservationists or fishery management officials. But I confess that I was surprised to see that sort of insensitivity displayed by the moderator of the "Conservation and the Environment" section of this website.

 

The fact that neither Shawn nor Eric, nor Underwatercolors, appears to have even a glimmer of understanding why I might have found Shawn's "casual" comments about Indonesia so offensive, or that they suspect I have some ulterior or secret message to deliver (what? let me check my code ring!) probably simply reflects how truly inarticulate I am, for which I do humbly apologize. Or else it may suggests the true breadth of the problem.

 

Robert Delfs

Edited August 10, 2008 by frogfish

[Guest echeng]

Robert -

 

I made no comment about Shawn's statements. I was merely pointing out that your response to Shawn's post, which was riddled with sarcasm skirting the edge of a personal slam, was not productive, nor was it in the spirit of the sort of dialog I want to foster here on Wetpixel. There was a better way to address your issue with Shawn's statement.

 

Pointing out a cultural slur is one thing. Responding with another doesn't help.

[Drew 0]

I do think everyone should really take a step back on this and realize that this is really a highly reactionary subject that requires better sensitivity to others.

I don't think ANY country in the world can claim to have no illegal 'something' of some kind. It is in our very human nature to want to survive and better our lives, without having the foresight to realize it cannot continue that way.

With some 30% of the world's population under the poverty line (and rising), I'd say we've done a pretty crappy job of managing ourselves on this planet.

Still there is a silver lining in the efforts to control the over-consumption of resources. For many staunch environmentalists, it isn't enough (and they are probably right). In Indonesia, there are efforts to protect the sea from over-exploitation. I've personally seen the efforts put in and obviously know quite a few people who have put in years of their lives in this hugely challenging endeavor. Even the most successful program, that of the Park Nasional Komodo (PNK), there are still hiccups in illegal fishing perpetrated by locals and foreigners. Still it is one of the few areas where I see recovery, something that can't be said of many places in the world.

So let's not allow the negativity pollute this subject. This discussion, while absolutely academic, must be conducted with the mutual respect that everyone deserves. Otherwise, we be no better than our plundering and pillaging ancestors, which we probably are, but I'd like to think we've progressed slightly since Rapa Nui.

[shawnh 0]

Robert. Please read my second post again (actually read it) before you persist in your attacks on me and the others who came to my defense. The fact that you continue to condemn me even after I offer both an explanation and an apology is surprising. Moreover you continue to justify your personal attack on me and offer no apology at all. Perhaps, just perhaps, the views of others might be of value. If not, I wouldn't waste your time participating in forums if one way communication is what you are after.

[frogfish 5]

Shawn, I did read your reply carefully the first time - "actually read it". I didn't respond to your "apology" (except to say that "nobody needs to apologize to me") because I genuinely feel that apologizing to me is irrelevant and inappropriate - your comments didn't denigrate me in any way. But never mind.

 

I'll plead nolo contendere to Eric's charge that my response to your post was "riddled with sarcasm". Perhaps so, but I had no intent to do injury to you. I'll also concede that my post was not "productive". Regrettably, I don't know how to respond to a post like this in a "productive" way.

 

I thought I did apologize to you, Shawn. Wasn't that what I wrote in the second line of my second post? Or are you looking for something more .. what? As I said, I certainly did not intend to condemn or attack you personally, Shawn. My comments were directed strictly toward your words. I can hardly retract my observation that those words were (as I perceived them) insensitive and offensive, if that's what you would like me to do, though it's obvious you did not intend them that way. Actually, that was sort of my point. (If only intentional hurtful slurs were wounding and damaging, this would be a nicer world.) I do appreciate the opportunity to say so in this forum and to explain why I reacted to your post as I did, even if I failed to persuade anyone here that important issues may be at stake.

 

I'll add another apology now for wrongly implying that you are an American. Personally I don't consider that a slur, but others might. And I do think stepping back would be a good idea. Perhaps after you've added another re-rejoinder to this, we could consider the exchange closed? If there is more to say (though I don't think there is), I would prefer to continue this off-line.

 

Robert

Edited August 11, 2008 by frogfish

[John Bantin 101]

Some of my best friends are American...