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Canon EOS 5D Mark II

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"JPEG straight from the camera" is really an oxymoron when you are talking about camera testing. If you want JPEG then it's important, but many people will believe these images aren't cooked when they are. These images will be useful in evaluating the in-camera JPEG capability and the defaults of the 5D2. Certainly they say something, but not what I really want to see.

 

I found this piece of fanboy writing particularly interesting, especially considering how people went for it. If this were true and I were an owner of a 1Ds3 less than one year old, I would expect Canon to recall and fix my camera. 2.5 stops improvement using the same sensor? How bad could those 1Ds engineers be?

 

The dpreview buzz is that Canon substantially lightened the bayer filter dyes to improve the high ISO performance. How they can do that without sacrificing base ISO I don't understand, but the clear ramification is poorer color differentiation. I would want to see evidence of it's color capabilities under controlled circumstances.

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Well I don't really care if it's better or worse than the 1DsMkIII. I want it for the 1080p and size. A dual platform underwater camera of good quality (no I don't consider the VGA video from the G9 good ;)) is probably the most exciting thing since digital came out. It'll be interesting to see how housing manufacturers implement video in their housing designs. Suddenly they have to think of hydrophones and handling balance.

For topside, it's so much more discrete than the 1D series and does video. Throw in a leica 50mm noctilux and it's a great camera. Hell I'll settle for a Planar T*.

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Throw in a leica 50mm noctilux and it's a great camera.

Only $6500 more! ;)

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Here an interesting item about the video capabilities.

Amazing times we live in; think about it, these are just the first in the series of new cameras that create a new paradigm.

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If this were true and I were an owner of a 1Ds3 less than one year old, I would expect Canon to recall and fix my camera. 2.5 stops improvement using the same sensor? How bad could those 1Ds engineers be?

Well Craig, I think Canon got bashed with the 1D series issues and lost lots of ground to competitors. They needed some super hyped up product and the 5D2 on steroids seemed to fit that mold.

I doubt Canon will ever publicly announce a goodwill trade in for the 1D series. There was nothing wrong with the camera before the 5D2 (ok the AF and VF issues MUST be dealt with). The 5D2 is just an improvement. Furthermore it'd set a precedent and expectations for the future, something no company can afford, especially since we all know how fast the industry moves in terms of technology (when manufacturers are forced to outduel each other).

The 1D series is not just for the performance of the sensor but the AF :snicker: and ruggedness.

Only $6500 more! ;)

Yes but that lens will sit in your collection and you can pass it on to your grandkids. It's not a toy. The last edition of the Noctilux 50/1.0 quickly became a collector's item too. Woodbox and everything ( which sorta makes me think Leica really charges too much). Someone once said: an object of desire has no price. :)

 

Here an interesting item about the video capabilities.

I like Vince but he's so tied to the hip with Canon that you have to consider how much of that is marketing hype. Right now, we have no idea how the CMOS sensor will react to normal movement (all the demo clips are locked tripod shots). Consider the SLR form factor, it is not made for keeping steady for 30fps because all the weight is on the arms and even Popeye gets tired. Also consider it's auto everything, probably to keep it from devouring the 1D series. Serious shooters will have to wait for the 1D series rendition of this. Seeing how the 1DmkIII is due to get it's N update soon (Apr is the 2nd year mark I believe), let's not all go googoogaga just yet. I admit I like the 5D2 a lot because of the size!

Plus a pet peeve, I hope the rush of photographers becoming videographers will quickly learn the vernacular of moving pictures. Vince calls the video from the 5D2 RAW, and it's H.264 compressed clips, not RAW. Only RAW camera out there now is the Red One, and it's compressed RAW.

 

Amazing times we live in; think about it, these are just the first in the series of new cameras that create a new paradigm.

Yes, Q is now working on the phaser 'canon' as we speak. :)

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Amazing times we live in; think about it, these are just the first in the series of new cameras that create a new paradigm.

 

 

Which is why I posted this link. I don't get "googoogaga" over just about anything, let alone a camera. I'm neither a fan nor detractor of Vince. Just posted this because I thought others would be interested. Evolving technology is exciting. As someone who is often "forced" to shoot video and still on the same assignment, I see the pluses and minuses of having a camera capable of shooting both still and video. Some days though I'd like to go back to shooting tri-x.

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Well Craig, I think Canon got bashed with the 1D series issues and lost lots of ground to competitors. They needed some super hyped up product and the 5D2 on steroids seemed to fit that mold.

I doubt Canon will ever publicly announce a goodwill trade in for the 1D series. ...

I think I may have been misunderstood. What I mean is that I don't believe that the 5D2 is 2.5 stops improved over the 1Ds3. The person claiming that is a Canon employee being paid to hype the product. They are doing the same with the 50D. The story is that the 5D2 sensor is the same as the 1Ds3 sensor with the exception of the color filters. If the light sensitivity is that much improved, then either color performance will suffer or the entire industry has been screwing up all this time (and base ISO couldn't remain at 100). More likely, Canon has made NR improvements in its JPEG engine (which is the new generation). If that's the case then the 5D2 isn't that greatly improved over the 1Ds3. The 1Ds3 is a current benchmark, after all, and it is certainly the best that Canon could make just a short time ago.

 

I'd also point out that the 5D2 has less than 1 "stops worth" of resolution over the D700 so it's noise disadvantage, all else equal, should only be that much. It's well within reason that Canon could have set and met an engineering goal to meet or exceed the ISO performance of the D3/D700. It's a year older design and the goal is far less ambitious at 1 stop than at the 2.5 that Westfall claims. A combination of NR improvements and lightened color filters could more reasonably achieve that.

 

I wasn't aware that Canon was being criticized for the 1Ds3. I thought it was only the 1D3 that got the complaints.

 

You can definitely see the effects of NR in the high ISO shots on dpreview. I think they look pretty good but some people are bashing them. I also see evidence of shooter error in some of the images.

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Yes, Q is now working on the phaser 'canon' as we speak. :)

Think I'll be able to convert my D200 housing? ;)

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I wasn't aware that Canon was being criticized for the 1Ds3. I thought it was only the 1D3 that got the complaints.

The general poor QC of the 1Ds3 for some bodies have been noted. Crooked viewfinder/prism assemblies was a big culprit. Matt had this issue.

 

You can definitely see the effects of NR in the high ISO shots on dpreview. I think they look pretty good but some people are bashing them. I also see evidence of shooter error in some of the images.

Craig, I think this quote from the D3 review says it all :)

...and anyone even close to considering a D3 will be more than capable of making an informed decision without a technical review such as this ...

 

Think I'll be able to convert my D200 housing? ;)

Oh I have so many quips about Q with Alex Mustard and Eric but I'll resist. :)

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Looks awesome! 21 megapixels heck yes. everyones worried about focus but I have a 5d and it is just as fast as my eos 3(45 focus points). Some weather sealing is better than none. I use my old 5d for topside shooting with no probs. The focus speed is super fast with the 16-35l ii. For the price being $2700 for an awesome still camera then hd video capability...there is nothing that can compare. I would rather have this camera than a 1ds mark iii. I have used both and let me tell you it's not the camera its the photographer. Or hd videographer Now ;)

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Hmmm...lots of good discussion. My perception (admittedly limited to what I've read - I haven't actually seen the camera yet) is that the 5D2 is going to take the serious uw photog market by storm. The size and ability to shoot high quality video are BIG advantages, and should/will attract a lot of users from three major groups:

1. Canon X0D users, who will finally see a real justification for "moving up";

2. Some Canon 1D and 1Ds users, who will see advantages in size, cost and access to video;

3. Non-Canon users, many of whom might have been thinking they just might switch to Canon and needed a final "nudge."

 

As I see it, there are still reasons many serious photographers will still prefer 1DX models, the main two being:

1. Speed: a 1D MkII or MkIII, and even the 1Ds Mk III, offer a significant advantage in terms of fps, which - for moving nature (e.g., sharks) and sports photography - is more important than just mp or many other features.

2. Weather sealing: those who use their gear topside in harsh conditions will still prefer the better protected models.

 

However, those considerations are really only a major issue for the minority of "serious" uw photographers (which includes a lot of dedicated amateurs like me, not just pros). For most of them/us, the attraction of this 5D2 is undeniable -- as this thread makes clear by the caliber of people who are intrigued by it.

 

If I didn't already have many years' budget already plowed into new Mark III gear, I would be first in line to order a 5D2! In fact, FWIW, if I had known the 5D2 would have video capabilities (why don't you guys "in the know" warn us?!), I would have just kept my 1D Mark II (and housing) for times when I need high fps and/or weather-sealing, and I'd be buying this 5D2 as my primary uw--and topside--camera.

Edited by bmyates

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I think that one thing that everyone misses in the hype about specs is that high resolution FX sensors will be hard to use. They will punish poor technique. The 5DMk2, Sony A900 and future Nikon high megapixel camera will all be like this. I know that Eric has said that the 1DsMk3 requires perfect technique to realise its full potential.

 

To make a film analogy, I think that the 10-15MP APS-C cameras will be like the old 35mm slides and the 20+ MP cameras will be like medium format on film - amazing when you nail it. Very unforgiving of sloppy technique.

 

Some of the 5D-2 images that have been doing the rounds in the UK, show just this. Shot at Canon UK - they are being criticised for not being very helpful because you can't judge anything about the sensor because of poor technique. They look fine at web rez - but not at 100%. But the fact that you can't judge the sensor from these shots is exactly the point. Poor technique will be exposed, good technique will be rewarded with 21 MP of goodness.

 

Alex

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I think that one thing that everyone misses in the hype about specs is that high resolution FX sensors will be hard to use. They will punish poor technique. The 5DMk2, Sony A900 and future Nikon high megapixel camera will all be like this. I know that Eric has said that the 1DsMk3 requires perfect technique to realise its full potential.

 

To make a film analogy, I think that the 10-15MP APS-C cameras will be like the old 35mm slides and the 20+ MP cameras will be like medium format on film - amazing when you nail it. Very unforgiving of sloppy technique.

 

Alex

 

Larger formats have always required a higher degree of technical precision to utilise the their full potential. Focus is absolutely critical and an understanding of depth of field confines is more essential for decent sized reproduction on FF cameras. Sloppy technique might well be translated as 'lack of critical understanding' too. But beware of internet hype - these cameras may well recieve criticism because they are harder to use to their full potential....

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I think that one thing that everyone misses in the hype about specs is that high resolution FX sensors will be hard to use. They will punish poor technique. . .Poor technique will be exposed, good technique will be rewarded with 21 MP of goodness.

 

That's an important point...and probably far more significant for uw applications than whatever Canon sacrificed in color filter capability to gain better light sensitivity in the 5D2. Since most of us shooting these high-end cameras are shooting RAW (allowing easy tweaking of WB/color), and exact/

"correct" colors of subjects underwater are nebulous anyway, the ability of this new camera to produce "better" uw photographs will -- as was always the case with previous top-end equipment -- ultimately depend most on the brain behind the eyeball behind the viewfinder...

 

BTW, I love the phrase, "21 MP of goodness". Sounds downright yummy, doesn't it?! ;)

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free lunch? I bought my 5d for $3100 when it first came out. And I am still happy with the images I can capture with it. Now a professional dslr comes out and has any type of video. HD video mind you. Probably better vid than any consumer video cam and your still not happy? I don't have to buy a video housing for my consumer video camera. I don't know how many lunches that buys you but considering an ikelite consumer vid housing runs around $800. I'm guessing you can get nice and fat. I can dive with one apparatus to capture video and stills. Then you throw in 21 mp in a compact full frame body. For $2699 that's a steal!

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(why don't you guys "in the know" warn us?!).

Simple Bruce. NDAs ;). I'm playing with one today before I fly but I'm not allowed to use a CF card or show pics from or of it. Which is fair seeing how it's still a prototype and not the final product. Still I will have to sign a NDA. Any leaked info is taken VERY personally by manufacturers.

 

free lunch? I bought my 5d for $3100 when it first came out. And I am still happy with the images I can capture with it. Now a professional dslr comes out and has any type of video. HD video mind you. Probably better vid than any consumer video cam and your still not happy?

Well, you read the thread, you will see why I said that. It's great you are happy with the 5DMkII, but some people are more discerning about the quality of the video than others.

 

come on team wetpixel... where's the review and the specs to tell us weather or not us 5d owners can use our existing housings?

If you read Viz'art's post in this thread, you already have the answer regarding housings. FYI, Canon has not released the camera yet.

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drew

 

look I am fully aware that the camera has not been released yet. I happen to remember wetpixel having access to other new equipment for the purpose of a preview. I was simply asking them expedite the preview for us wetpixel members.

The primary function of this camera is a camera. I'm sure as a video expert you were not counting on buying 5d2 then throwing your video camera into the ocean . I am a pro-photographer. Would I expect a video camera to produce a 21 megapixel image? No.

 

With repect to viz'arts post that was for an aquatica housing but it may fit differently in say an ikelite housing.

 

Instead of debating a bunch of forum posts I was hoping to see an official hands on preview by wetpixel. This is where wetpixel can use it's influence as a special interest group to get a production sample.

Edited by scubarobot

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For those who dared to hope against hope, the 5Dmk2 WILL NOT FIT into your old housings. As Jean (Viz'Art) has already stated, the dimensions while similar do not account for the layout. Laying them out side by side, the prism area of the 5D2 is bigger and more bulbous, the viewfinder is actually lower and the buttons moved sideways by a few mm. On/Off switch has moved way right and the control dial is smaller.

The top LCD panel is brand new and buttons have moved also. The shutter and top control dial seems to be at the same place as are the * and AF point adjust buttons.

It's not just changing of the back controls but also the top controls. IF the housing can fit the bigger prism head and you can live with looking at partial VF (maybe 2mm off), top and back LCD monitors , you still have to find someone to modify the controls. Oh you also have to lower the mount plate because the entire right side is higher by 3-5mm. :D Have I quashed all hopes yet? :)

Of course, all this could've been extrapolated from the press pictures from links in this thread, so most of you already know that,judging by how many rigs suddenly just popped up in the classifieds. :)

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Just back from Canon Canada and had the opportunity to play with the MK II, like Drew I got to play with it put couldn't load it up but I did get enough dimensional info to tell you its not going into a 5D housing, at least not without a fight and some bruises. there is just too much difference. I did however put a 50D in our 40D housing and well, lets put it this way Aquatica is proud to say it has being shipping it Canon 50D for a long while :) the camera is identical for housing purposes, but thats another thread!

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Just a quick overlap of both cameras rear controls is enough to tell me this baby is a totally different size layout. way too much for a conversion such as the D200/D300, Our Camera is ordered already and we are going to get to it the moment its in. I can tell you it will be machined from solid and have a port lock mechanism (all our new housing will feature that). Good timing for once, we are basically all done with the D700 design and just about ready to go in production. its a luxury to be able to concentrate on one design these days.

 

I guess you’ve overlapped the viewfinders?

 

I did some overlays but used the lens (mount) as reference ‘cause it simply has to stay centred for optics and zoom/focus gear. And yes, it seems no good for conversion.

 

front.gif

 

side.gif

 

side2.gif

 

back.gif

 

At least for video tryout I hope I can stuff it into the MkI housing with the set knob working to start shooting.

Oh, I guess we need to worry about manual focus gear again with the MkII :-)

 

Welcome back Jolly! Did it take the replacement of the 5D to get you back here :-)

 

Thanks James. Well, not just the MkII :P

 

Jolly, aren't you a little disappointed that auto ISO doesn't work in manual? I know I am.

 

Thanks for pointing out. I hadn’t noticed. Auto ISO in manual would have been a good thing. But I guess I would preferably use it in Av / Tv with filters.

 

Julian

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