Using Darkbusters? Waggsy, others?

[Shasta_man 0]

Saw Waggsy's diffusion video. Lights with diffusion are very nice and even.

 

Attracted to this setup because it's relatively simple, seems the only way to get cheaper 21-24W HID underwater, with any light kits 2x that. I'm at $1K+ for twin 50W halogens including hardware, while this appears at $950 plus hardware for two for better lights.

 

Questions:

 

- What about using the 21W video reflector version? Saves about $80 per light at the only distrib I find (scuba.com) though the Brightstar website picture shows an appreciable diff.

 

- How do you turn them on? Switch on individual lights? You just leave them on for most of the dive? How long to start up?

 

- Comments have been they are pretty neutral buoyancy. Correct? That's very attractive as that's a pain to figure out.

 

- I was thinking of simplifying the arm setup and going with a single arm straight off the housing instead of two. Problems?

 

Very difficult to find light solutions. At least $1K, then other choices start coming for just a few hundred more, and more, and more... and this is the most I have ever paid for a FLASHLIGHT. :-9

[wagsy 0]

Hi

My thoughts.

Yep they are very cheap but two years later mine are still going and I have done a heap of dives with them.

Been to 45 meters no problems.

I just had to replace a $100 globe in one.

Go the 24 watts with the video reflector, you will still need to make a diffuser.

With the home made diffusers in you will get full even light even if you are just 1 foot from your subject.

Take the home made diffusers out for more water penetration but you then get more of a hot spot.

One will not be powerful enough get two.

They are only slightly negative underwater and sit out on the arms no problems.

Charging is very quick and easy (wall or 12volt car) and you will get two dives out of a charge no problems.

They have individual switches to turn them on and off.

 

You can even used them when you go camping.

 

Note:

Make sure you DO NOT turn the charging power on at the wall until you have plug in the little charge connector to the light itself or you may zap-blow the small car type fuse inside.....easy to fix though.

 

My other $3,000 dollar HID's never get used anymore.

 

Hope that helps.

[Shasta_man 0]

Thanks for the update. Just what I was looking for.

 

Question: My reference to arms actually meant, I was thinking of using a single segmented arm instead of a double segmented arm. Based on the photo of your rig, it showed double segmented arms extended directly out to the side. I was thinking of using a single segment to get closer to the camera, really mostly for "rig balance" (not such a wide span) and partly to reduce cost.

 

Do I have to have the lights extended so far out from the camera? I was thinking of the two lights sort of out 45 degrees from the lens.

 

 

 

Hi

My thoughts.

Yep they are very cheap but two years later mine are still going and I have done a heap of dives with them.

Been to 45 meters no problems.

I just had to replace a $100 globe in one.

Go the 24 watts with the video reflector, you will still need to make a diffuser.

With the home made diffusers in you will get full even light even if you are just 1 foot from your subject.

Take the home made diffusers out for more water penetration but you then get more of a hot spot.

One will not be powerful enough get two.

They are only slightly negative underwater and sit out on the arms no problems.

Charging is very quick and easy (wall or 12volt car) and you will get two dives out of a charge no problems.

They have individual switches to turn them on and off.

 

You can even used them when you go camping.

 

Note:

Make sure you DO NOT turn the charging power on at the wall until you have plug in the little charge connector to the light itself or you may zap-blow the small car type fuse inside.....easy to fix though.

 

My other $3,000 dollar HID's never get used anymore.

 

Hope that helps.

Edited September 22, 2008 by Shasta_man

[MaximDim 0]

My only complain about Darkbusters is hot spot. Without diffusers hot spots are very pronounced (can see it here for example at the beginning of this video I took: http://vimeo.com/1695473). With diffusers light output is greatly reduced, especially in bad visibility. I think reflector size on Darkbuster is noticeably smaller than on 'proper' video lights.

Edited September 22, 2008 by MaximDim

[Shasta_man 0]

Thanks maxim.

 

Yes, they appear just a spot light when not used with diffusers. Wouldn't appear suitable without the diffusers.

 

Looking at your referenced clip, I'm wondering whether you can adjust them to converge at a closer point. They appeared to more point independently rather than illuminating a spot together. When you got close the ship in the last few moments, the beam appeared to even be outside the camera's view?

 

At the same time, not sure how it would get better if you diffused the light.

 

Are you using the yogurt lid diffuser? Perhaps there is something lighter?

 

You guys do some serious diving there. You have a days worth of tanks on for one dive. :-) Amazing preservation on those wrecks in that cold water.

 

 

 

 

My only complain about Darkbusters is hot spot. Without diffusers hot spots are very pronounced (can see it here for example at the beginning of this video I took: http://vimeo.com/1695473). With diffusers light output is greatly reduced, especially in bad visibility. I think reflector size on Darkbuster is noticeably smaller than on 'proper' video lights.

[wagsy 0]

Remember these are very cheap lights so you cannot complain too much about them.

 

The diffusers that come with it are no good for video up close, you have to make some and yes they cut the light back.

They work for me as I like to get really close to my subjects on full wide and you can have the lights very close to the port even with a heavy diffuser on.

I also like the fact that they are self contained, not external power cord to hook up onto things.

Get those black rubber boots to cut out the side glow from the light head if you can.

 

You cannot have it both ways, lights that cover the whole area up very close but still give a long penetration without having super duper $$$ powerful lights or ones that you can adjust on the run.

If you want them to penetrate further move them as far away from the port as you can and use less a heavy diffuser.

 

Having two on top would work, I sometimes swing my two up like that.

[MaximDim 0]

If I point them to converge at closer point there is just too much back scatter from particles in the water. I was actually trying to point them slightly outwards.

I'm using yogurt diffusers, thanks to tip from Wagsy. They work great, but only on the short distances, like feet or two. Here is the shoot with diffusers on - you can see lights only when I'm close to the subject: http://vimeo.com/1440332

 

 

 

Thanks maxim.

 

Yes, they appear just a spot light when not used with diffusers. Wouldn't appear suitable without the diffusers.

 

Looking at your referenced clip, I'm wondering whether you can adjust them to converge at a closer point. They appeared to more point independently rather than illuminating a spot together. When you got close the ship in the last few moments, the beam appeared to even be outside the camera's view?

 

At the same time, not sure how it would get better if you diffused the light.

 

Are you using the yogurt lid diffuser? Perhaps there is something lighter?

 

You guys do some serious diving there. You have a days worth of tanks on for one dive. :-) Amazing preservation on those wrecks in that cold water.

[MaximDim 0]

Hey, no real complains - I'm happy with them for the price I paid.

I'm pretty sure with diffusers in clear water they works great, especially for closer shoots. Some of videos you took with them are simply amazing!

 

Can't have everything and don't pay much I guess.

 

Remember these are very cheap lights so you cannot complain too much about them.

 

The diffusers that come with it are no good for video up close, you have to make some and yes they cut the light back.

They work for me as I like to get really close to my subjects on full wide and you can have the lights very close to the port even with a heavy diffuser on.

I also like the fact that they are self contained, not external power cord to hook up onto things.

Get those black rubber boots to cut out the side glow from the light head if you can.

 

You cannot have it both ways, lights that cover the whole area up very close but still give a long penetration without having super duper $$$ powerful lights or ones that you can adjust on the run.

If you want them to penetrate further move them as far away from the port as you can and use less a heavy diffuser.

 

Having two on top would work, I sometimes swing my two up like that.

[wagsy 0]

Ha ha what yogurt brand did you use?

I had to cut up a few till I found the right ones I liked.

Yes you get no back scatter with them in.

 

I see they have some video arms now you can buy as well.

 

Nice wreck, you would need a couple 100+watts to light up that wreck though on full wide.

[MaximDim 0]

I don't think we have same brands of yogurt here I have actually used very thin single-use plastic plates, because all yogurt I've seen here is made of much thicker plastic.

 

I attached standard ULCS arms to my lights, with very simple modification of ball adapter.

 

Ha ha what yogurt brand did you use?

I had to cut up a few till I found the right ones I liked.

Yes you get no back scatter with them in.

 

I see they have some video arms now you can buy as well.

 

Nice wreck, you would need a couple 100+watts to light up that wreck though on full wide.

[MaximDim 0]

I switched my TRV-900 to '30' shutter speed for those dives, that seems to help to capture ambient light. Otherwise camera goes to +18 gain almost all the time when lights are further than few feet from the subject.

 

Nice wreck, you would need a couple 100+watts to light up that wreck though on full wide.

[Shasta_man 0]

I guess I need to go back to some basics here. Talking to my housing manufacturer who sells dual 50W halogen systems, who while acknowledging the pros of HID, they've brought up some good points.

 

- HID can put out ton of light, but light can be overpowering on close up work. For video, lights only useful for ~3 feet out, otherwise particulate matter in water produces too much backscatter vis a vis light output useful only to a point.

- HID puts out much cooler bluer light

- HID uses less power, so longer battery life

- bulbs specific and expensive

 

I guess I have to ask why you're (Wagsy and MaximDim) using HIDs over halogen lights? I know the light output is impressive, but what about the list of practical issues above?

 

You've fixed the overpowering by using diffusers. But why not go with wide angle reflector halogens? Still hot spot problems?

 

Wagsy, is this the logic trail?: are you shooting full wide angle all the time = you need to get closer = you need light close up and you can't have hot spots there = only solution was diffused high power lights because halogens will have hot spots so close?

 

Do you shoot with lights during the day? How do they work for that?

 

And what about the light color problem? Are you handling it in post? Or is there no problem? Or?

 

I guess I'm confused as to if you have to shoot close up due to particulate, the halogen lights seem to have plenty of output, though lower battery life and produce a warmer light.

 

Perhaps your statement "You need a couple 100+ watts to light up that wreck" says it? You'd need bright power hungry lights to get the same output as the HID, and you just deal with the blue light in post?

 

I switched my TRV-900 to '30' shutter speed for those dives, that seems to help to capture ambient light. Otherwise camera goes to +18 gain almost all the time when lights are further than few feet from the subject.

[MaximDim 0]

Well, I was driven completely by cost. For the price I paid for the pair of Darkbusters (~$600) there wasn't anything comparable. I didn't want to spend much on my first lighting system before I can figure what I need/want etc. And as Wagsy mentioned you can also use Darkbusters for camping ;-)

 

My opinion is that it's all depends on your needs and environment you're are using it in. What works perfectly for close up shoots in clean water might not be the best option for big wrecks in the lake and so on.

 

I guess I have to ask why you're (Wagsy and MaximDim) using HIDs over halogen lights? I know the light output is impressive, but what about the list of practical issues above?

 

You've fixed the overpowering by using diffusers. But why not go with wide angle reflector halogens? Still hot spot problems?

[ronscuba 4]

As you know, I have halogen lights, but halogens have their weak points too. The "warmer" light can be too warm. The work around is color correct in post and manual white balance. This works pretty well most of the time, but not always.

 

The shorter burn times of halogen are not a big problem for video use. You can instantly turn a halogen on/off throughout the whole dive. On a 60 minute dive, how many minutes are you actually recording video ? The short burn time issues are valid for tech divers because they leave their lights on the whole dive using their lights for signaling.

 

I don't think you will find the "perfect" lights, especially at your budget. The darkbusters look to be the best under $1k HID offering and Wagsy's videos show they work well.

Edited September 23, 2008 by ronscuba

[Shasta_man 0]

Thanks Ronscuba.

 

Based on our discussion and my own observations about shadowing with one light, it seemed I would have to go with dual halogens. That level of cost led to the Darkbuster discovery. I think both have adequate light output for most of the warm water clearer water diving I would like to do.

 

here's the choices I've narrowed to:

 

- dual 50W halogens with wide reflectors

Pros: wide light, low cost upkeep, seems to throw light farther than the diffused Darkbuster, could be hot spots close up; Cons: dedicated lights to sell, shorter battery life however I only rec dive.

 

OR

 

- dual Darkbusters - +$200 total over halogens

Pros: mega light, easier to sell two tech diving lights later; Cons: independent light switches, using diffuser, will they make housing top heavy? Not as tightly integrated. Expensive bulb.

 

Hmmm...the decisions we have to make when we can't "just pay the money"!

 

So, seems to come down to light color. How do HID users cameras handle the light color? I see Wagsy's video looked very nice but how much correction was required for that result? I'm unclear about white balance for lights.

 

 

 

 

As you know, I have halogen lights, but halogens have their weak points too. The "warmer" light can be too warm. The work around is color correct in post and manual white balance. This works pretty well most of the time, but not always.

 

The shorter burn times of halogen are not a big problem for video use. You can instantly turn a halogen on/off throughout the whole dive. On a 60 minute dive, how many minutes are you actually recording video ? The short burn time issues are valid for tech divers because they leave their lights on the whole dive using their lights for signaling.

 

I don't think you will find the "perfect" lights, especially at your budget. The darkbusters look to be the best under $1k HID offering and Wagsy's videos show they work well.

Edited September 23, 2008 by Shasta_man

[ronscuba 4]

I believe in general, HID does not need much color correction in post, but having never used HID I'll let others give their experiences. Color correcting halogen in post is not that bad. The footage can start out looking a little red or yellowish, but it cleans up pretty easily.

 

White balancing for lights is nothing more than shining your lights on something neutral like sand or a slate and setting MWB.

Edited September 23, 2008 by ronscuba

[Shasta_man 0]

Thanks. I wasn't sure whether you had to WB with lights.

 

What are you editing with? I'm using Vegas. I'll have to study a bit more on color correction beyond clicking the little white balance tool around. :-)

 

I believe in general, HID does not need much color correction in post, but having never used HID I'll let others give their experiences. Color correcting halogen in post is not that bad. The footage can start out looking a little red or yellowish, but it cleans up pretty easily.

 

White balancing for lights is nothing more than shining your lights on something neutral like sand or a slate and setting MWB.

Edited September 23, 2008 by Shasta_man

[MaximDim 0]

Which halogen system you're referring to for that price? I might be interested to look at it as well.

 

- dual 50W halogens with wide reflectors

Pros: wide light, low cost upkeep, seems to throw light farther than the diffused Darkbuster, could be hot spots close up; Cons: dedicated lights to sell, shorter battery life however I only rec dive.

 

OR

 

- dual Darkbusters - +$200 total over halogens

[Shasta_man 0]

I have an Ocean Images housing. They have a light kit for the housing for around $900, which includes light heads, battery, mounting tray and locline arms. However, the kit is designed for their housing, so it may not be of use to you. Here is their website: http://www.oceanimagesinc.com/products/vid...videolights.htm This would be nice for me as it is a completed kit with everything. They have two types, one with wider reflectors and another with more directional lights. They state 50 watt lights but they said they can also put 100s or 25s. You can also mix lights such as a wide light and a spot light, using a 3 position switch. One of the owners, Keith, has always been very helpful on the phone and ready to discuss all sides of potential purchases. Keith warns that their website doesn't always reflect the latest updates such as both lights have the long arms.

 

Another option for around the same was piecing together a halogen set up from pieces from Sartek as recommended and used by Ronscuba, here on the board. www.sartek.com. I believe I could put together a single light (light, reflector, wetmate cable) plus battery and connections for about $590, but arms were extra.

 

 

Which halogen system you're referring to for that price? I might be interested to look at it as well.

[wagsy 0]

Hi guys

I use HID\'s as they are much brighter than the same watt ratings as halogens plus they go way longer... like two dives no problems.

WB the colder colder is no problems on the puter now days but I like to have the camera abit warm with the lights on anyhow.

With the home made diffusers the power of the lights are knocked back quite abit but no hotspots and no back scatter.

 

I think the best way is to make your own minds.

Here is another video clip I did...as you can see I like getting very close on full wide so they work for me.

This was shot with the Phenom with it\'s 94 degree port on.

 

http://www.hdvunderwater.com/flashHD/lights/lights.html

[Shasta_man 0]

Wow....wow.... Very nice.

 

Yeah, zero hotspots, none. The only time you saw evidence of the lights was when the right side was over a coral head and the left was not. And that was just a brighter area without a real spot.

 

The shark and the grouper shots are good indications of the lightable distance. The grouper didn't like Wagsy in his face. :-)

 

There is even a lot of particulate but no backscatter. That is a perfect combo for you.

 

I'm wondering about translating this "australian": "WB the colder colder is no problems". You meant to say you have no problem WB the cooler color on the computer?

 

How are you WBing to get it warmer? I'm thinking you have more control on your camera than I...

 

Class is almost over. :-) Thanks.

 

 

Hi guys

I use HID\'s as they are much brighter than the same watt ratings as halogens plus they go way longer... like two dives no problems.

WB the colder colder is no problems on the puter now days but I like to have the camera abit warm with the lights on anyhow.

With the home made diffusers the power of the lights are knocked back quite abit but no hotspots and no back scatter.

 

I think the best way is to make your own minds.

Here is another video clip I did...as you can see I like getting very close on full wide so they work for me.

This was shot with the Phenom with it\'s 94 degree port on.

 

http://www.hdvunderwater.com/flashHD/lights/lights.html

[Probie 0]

Glad to see u saw my post on these lights.

So are u getting interested in them yet or are u still on the fence?

Wags! I got mine a month ago and ate a heap of yogurt mmmmm and after many different flavours found the strawberry "ski" was the best for the diffusers...

 

Went on a night dive the other night in Sydney with my girlfriend and got them wet for the first time with an even cruder mounting setup than yours Wagsy. 3 cable ties onto each housing handle using the pistol grips. lol. Couldnt position them at all, but shooting Wide angle it was ok. The light was great from them both but am glad I purchased 2, as I turned one off mid dive and was surprised of the differance it made. The arms and clamps turned up today so the ties are outta here.

There was a crowd of onlookers as we surfaced all facinated and wondering what this 20ft white blob underwater was. I was amused. had a look at the footage before post and was more than happy with the results.

I also shoot close and found no hotspots and an even coverage of light with great color.

I was however harassed by 6 Port Jackson sharks that were I believe attracted to the light. They were all jumping over oneanother to be the closest to the cam. I ended up having to can the dive and fend them off.

 

Shasta - I ordered mine from Scuba.com and had nothing but problems with them. After a month to the day my order was still being processed and still no goods. LOOK ELSEWHERE!!!!!!

If your in Australia I could recommend the co. I recieved mine from. I had them 2 days after ordering them online.

 

I found the light with the 2 DB's fantastic and no backscatter with the diffusers. They are as said just and I mean just slightly neg boy. The start up time is actually fairly quick for HID's, and as an electrician I have used many types of HID's and am really impressed by the punch they give.

All in all fantastic lights for the price, size and weight.

[Shasta_man 0]

Well, I jumped off the fence now! I'm a Darkbuster guy now! :-0

 

I was really leaning to the complete package from the housing manufacturer, but multiple factors pushed me back to the Darkbusters. (To convince myself, I'll list them)

 

- lack of hotspots without having to position the arms. This was one of my top concerns as the halogens were great light output but without careful arm positioning, you can get serious hotspots.

- no backscatter - another concern with the great light output of the halogens

- I figured I could always sell the lights to tech divers.

- the tray for my housing INCLUDES ARMS! :-) I just need to buy the light attachment and clamps.

 

Last but not least is cost. After looking at scuba.com as the only retailer, I found scubatoys.com had them! And the price, along with a discount for being a member of another forum, crushed the scuba.com price by US$218. EACH. Yes, each. And free ground shipping for me. I've had great experience with them and would not hesitate to recommend them.

 

Only concern is bulb cost and durability.

 

So I've made my bed. This trip, I'm preparing 3 months out, so I should have time to deal.

 

 

 

 

Glad to see u saw my post on these lights.

So are u getting interested in them yet or are u still on the fence?

Wags! I got mine a month ago and ate a heap of yogurt mmmmm and after many different flavours found the strawberry "ski" was the best for the diffusers...

 

Went on a night dive the other night in Sydney with my girlfriend and got them wet for the first time with an even cruder mounting setup than yours Wagsy. 3 cable ties onto each housing handle using the pistol grips. lol. Couldnt position them at all, but shooting Wide angle it was ok. The light was great from them both but am glad I purchased 2, as I turned one off mid dive and was surprised of the differance it made. The arms and clamps turned up today so the ties are outta here.

There was a crowd of onlookers as we surfaced all facinated and wondering what this 20ft white blob underwater was. I was amused. had a look at the footage before post and was more than happy with the results.

I also shoot close and found no hotspots and an even coverage of light with great color.

I was however harassed by 6 Port Jackson sharks that were I believe attracted to the light. They were all jumping over oneanother to be the closest to the cam. I ended up having to can the dive and fend them off.

 

Shasta - I ordered mine from Scuba.com and had nothing but problems with them. After a month to the day my order was still being processed and still no goods. LOOK ELSEWHERE!!!!!!

If your in Australia I could recommend the co. I recieved mine from. I had them 2 days after ordering them online.

 

I found the light with the 2 DB's fantastic and no backscatter with the diffusers. They are as said just and I mean just slightly neg boy. The start up time is actually fairly quick for HID's, and as an electrician I have used many types of HID's and am really impressed by the punch they give.

All in all fantastic lights for the price, size and weight.

[Probie 0]

Good to hear.

 

I really wouldnt worry about the globe cost. HID's run for ever. and $100 in a year or 2 is not really that big a deal. Unlikely they will both go at the same time. And they seam to be a fairly robust unit. They are designed to be used underwater and on land as a torch.

Geez your getting them cheep then. I guess what u save on the lamps you will spend on the mounts and clamps.

I am sure you wont be dissapointed with them.

[wagsy 0]

Hey great to hear....remember though don't expect them to be as good as $$$$ lights, they do what they do great for the price they are and that is a very good price indeed.

Take one outside one night and try it out, they put out some pretty good light.

During the day you would want to use lighter diffusers for them.

 

Probie sound like you had a fun dive, be it cold though and I would of kept rolling on those little sharks.

Funny, I just got my new globe in ($110AUD), and now it looks like the lithium battery pack has failed on one. I pulled them apart and the pack is made up of 6x4v lithium cells configured in 3x2 parallel-serials and looks like the end two have failed. I was going to buy two new cells from the battery wholesaler and try fixing it that way but I think I will just buy another $120 battery pack then I have spare cells for next time around.

 

Yes there is now a guy in VIC (AUS) selling stuff, Google him... he seems pretty good.