Subject: Raja Ampat Cityseahorse Deb Fugitt Ondina

[twhi 0]

Subject: Raja Ampat Cityseahorse Deb Fugitt Ondina

 

I did an 11 day trip to Raja Ampat with Deb Fugitt CitySeahorse tours on the Ondina in November 08.

This is a review I wish I'd read before I went.

 

A lot has been written about Raja Ampat diving.

Here's a few words about what it isn't:

It isn't about good visibility. Average viz for us was 35-45 feet.

The local guides told us this was typical.

 

It isn't about big fish.

We saw just a handful of sharks, a few mantas, napoleon wrasse, jacks, and

few other pelagics.

 

The boat:

The Ondina is a safe, stable 100 ft vessel. Diving is done from two inflatable dinghies. The crew is excellent - friendly, competent and helpful. Cabins were basic but noisy and at least three of them had AC issues and one of them had problems with fumes and exhaust from gasoline or diesel.

 

The food:

The kitchen staff were delightful and the food was seriously lacking. Fried something for almost every lunch and dinner. Instant noodles appeared more than once or twice. Our airline meal on Silk Air economy class back to Singapore was gourmet in comparison.

 

The diving:

Most dive ops in my experience strive to offer a wide variety of sites.

Not so with our charter. On most days, Deb Fugitt preferred to park the boat for the entire day at a mediocre reef and offered 'Open Deck' diving.

 

No less than five of the eleven days were spent at ordinary, shallow dive sites:

 

Two entire days (10 hours per day), were spent at The Passage - a site with 35 ft maximum depth and 25 to 30 foot visibility.

 

One day (four dives) at a small village pier. Depth about 15 to 45 feet.

 

Another entire day (10 hours) was spent diving in a mangrove area. Brown green water looking for critters amongst muddy tree roots, 25 to 30 ft viz and max depth about 40 feet. Get the picture?

 

Not to mention the first afternoon spent on a checkout dive in Sorong harbor.

 

For a capable live aboard with so much potential like the Ondina, I found this routine inexcusable.

I translated 'open deck" to mean "lets save on our fuel costs".

 

Yes, we did dive Cape Kri, Mike's Point and Kaleidoscope. They were great and I wanted more. A few friends and I repeatedly requested the lead dive master and cruise director for more sites like these but to no avail. The diving was clearly not about offering choices to the guests, it was all about Deb.

 

So, in summary, if you are a passive, sedate, complacent or sheep-like diver, content with kneeling in 35 feet on a mundane, ordinary reef dive after dive for yet one more photo of Nemo, City Seahorse tours with Deb Fugitt is for you.

 

However, if you are looking for world class, high voltage, or adventure diving, you might find it at Raja Ampat but its unlikely you will find it with Deb Fugitt's charters.

 

Here are a few of your options:

You have been warned.

 

Raja Ampat and Triton Bay (Papua) Liveaboard Diving Cruises on the luxurious schooner The Seven Seas

Main page

Raja Ampat Cruises, Raja Ampat Diving

Grand Komodo - Tours & Dives

[Alex_Mustard 0]

Hello twhi,

 

I am sorry that you did not enjoy your trip and the group leader did not respond to your requests to change.

 

I have to say I love trips where you stay on one site for the whole day. Yes, as a diver this might not see all the sites, but as a photographer this approach gives you the chance to shoot subjects review your images and then go back in and improve them.

 

I have not met Deb or Tony, but many at Wetpixel have been on their trips and speak highly of them. I'll be interested to see what their thoughts are on your comments.

 

Alex

[oneyellowtang 95]

Have dealt w/Deb before - "stubborn" might be an appropriate description...

 

I've never been on one of her trips (by choice), although I have been on the boat. It's reasonably comfortable, but others have had small issues w/it in the past (and there are better boats in the region now...)

 

This sounds like you signed up for the trip w/out really understanding the itinerary. Deb makes it pretty clear on her site what the schedule will be like...

[scorpio_fish 5]

I have been on this trip with Deb and Tony. As for the Ondina, I'm not a fan. I'll leave it at that.

 

I have a completely different take on the diving. My perspective on what works best for a photographic trip is in line with the way Deb runs her trips. Clearly, some people have a completely different take on what a trip should look like. I like to avoid the typical live-aboard itinerary.

 

Before I respond to your points, I will state up front that I consider Raja the best overall diving I've experienced.

 

1) Visibility - It is quite variable, even at its best it will never be 30m/100ft. So what. Visibility is overrated. If you want great vis, try an Olympic size pool or even the Bahamas. Vis would rule Lembeh right out of the top ten.

 

2) Pelagics - I find it difficult to find warm water sites that supply large pelagics, colorful hard and soft corals, schools of fish and great macro subjects. I don't schedule a trip thinking I'm going to cover the entire gamut of diving. The Mantas were a bonus. One can never expect great Pelagic activity. If one wants Pelagic action, then one should choose a destination which offers it as a prime consideration. I'm not sure if anyone has falsely claimed Raja as a great Pelagic destination.

 

3) Parking the boat and open deck is always preferred by some of us. We don't have to prep gear for a specific dive time and we can take as long as we won't. The opposite is rigid schedules with rigid bottom times so the boat can move to another location. One photog complained constantly while on the Odyssea because of rigid follow the guide routine and 40-50 minute time limits.

 

4) Two entire days (10 hours per day), were spent at The Passage - a site with 35 ft maximum depth and 25 to 30 foot visibility. Depth is even more irrelevant than visibility. Two days may be a bit much, but it is definitely a great location. We had some folks who didn't care much for it (they thought the best dive was riding the 7 knot current in the middle of the passage all the way back to the boat). I considered the Passage a great place to shoot both macro and wide angle.

 

5) Another entire day (10 hours) was spent diving in a mangrove area. Brown green water looking for critters amongst muddy tree roots, 25 to 30 ft viz and max depth about 40 feet. Get the picture? I get the picture. I got a lot of pictures there. Without the Mangroves, I wouldn't have gone on the trip. I would have stayed there two days in order to catch different tides and light direction. The vis on my second dive was well over 50ft. I only spent 112 minutes on that dive, solo diving...from an open deck. If I had waited for a scheduled time, I would have missed the best vis. I can't wait to go back. I kick myself for shorting the second dive at 112 minutes as it was the best vis. I still had over half a tank. The 3rd dive had great light, but poor vis. I can't wait to go back. Granted, it's not for everyone. But I was looking for something different. The salt water mangroves are different.

 

6) Yes, we did dive Cape Kri, Mike's Point and Kaleidoscope. They were great and I wanted more. A few friends and I repeatedly requested the lead dive master and cruise director for more sites like these but to no avail. How many more like them do you think there are? If there were equivalent sites along the way, you probably would have dived them. Theses are the big draw. I'm not sure where he could have taken you. The antithesis would be to keep moving to lesser quality sites in order to give you more variety of sites.

 

7) So, in summary, if you are a passive, sedate, complacent or sheep-like diver, content with kneeling in 35 feet on a mundane, ordinary reef dive after dive for yet one more photo of Nemo, City Seahorse tours with Deb Fugitt is for you. I am of a completely different opinion. Spending a day in the Mangroves or Passage is for someone who doesn't want another picture of Nemo.

 

8) However, if you are looking for world class, high voltage, or adventure diving, you might find it at Raja Ampat but its unlikely you will find it with Deb Fugitt's charters. Nice qualifier. "you might". What other Sorong to Sorong boats have you been on? I'm not sure what kind of "high octane" and "adventure" one might expect to find on another boat doing the same itinerary. I find this statement misleading.

 

Traveling to Raja isn't for everyone. Diving Raja isn't for everyone. The Ondina isn't for everyone. A Deb Fugitt trip isn't for everyone. You keep implying that you were mislead about the diving in general and the itinerary and yet provide no evidence of such. Then your final statement is that it might have all been different on another boat with no support for such a conclusion. Deb is quite clear on how she runs her trips. Her trips are for serious photographers. It is not for the non-photographer or casual shooter.

 

It is quite possible that another boat would have been more comfortable and had better food. I'm hoping that is the case on my next trip. I'm not convinced that a Sorong to Sorong itinerary could have been better under the direction of someone else or on another boat. My perspective on diving is clearly different than yours and one should take into consideration their own expectations when choosing any destination or operator.

[vazuw 1]

Opinions,and experiences for a boat or trip will always include some negative experiences. You are certainly entitled to your opinion. I have been on two trips on his boat with city seahoses. I feel lucky,as their trips, often book up well in advance. They have been running trips to that area for over 10 years, and probably know the area better then most. The trips are run for photographers, which by the camera on your profile, you may not be as avid as some of us. In fact I may have been on your trip. I think they run one of the best trips for photographers I've ever been on, and cant wait to get back next year. I go for the diving. I dont care about the food or rooms, so I have no opinion on that. I have been on many trips where the diving is all about what the trip leaders want, they are NOT like that. They adjust the itinerary based on what people want. On our trip we were given choices to stay or go to sites. Rather then write a negative report, it sounds like you should research tour trips better, and give them a break

[tdpriest 115]

Two entire days (10 hours per day), were spent at The Passage - a site with 35 ft maximum depth and 25 to 30 foot visibility.

 

One day (four dives) at a small village pier. Depth about 15 to 45 feet.

 

Another entire day (10 hours) was spent diving in a mangrove area. Brown green water looking for critters amongst muddy tree roots, 25 to 30 ft viz and max depth about 40 feet. Get the picture?

 

Sounds like a photographer's paradise...

 

... I can't wait (though I have to admit we are sailing on Seven Seas).

 

I dabbled in the mangroves of Bonaire, snorkelling from a canoe, and I've had a few thoughts that I want to try out, though I probably won't be able to take my circular fisheye with current baggage limitations. On second (third, fourth, fifth... n-th) thoughts, if I don't have to worry about a lens for big stuff, perhaps I can....

 

 

Can any old Raja Ampat hands suggest what lenses they would find useful out there?

 

Tim

 

[Alex_Mustard 0]

Take the circular fisheye. Should be cool in Lembeh too!

 

Alex

[vazuw 1]

TAKE the fisheye check my pics, all wides taken with the 10 to 17 tokina, and three strobes www.flickr.com/photos/vazuw

[Drew 0]

Twhi, sorry to hear you had a bad trip. Unfortunately, it would seem part of the issue is that you failed to do due diligence in researching the area, the boat and the City Seahorse outfit. As the others have said, it seems City Seahorse is a photog's trip. That means sitting on sites and shooting the crap out of the area before moving on. Unfortunately, that leaves out the casual photog want for variation. Even a casual search on Wetpixel I've found a few threads with descriptions of City Seahorse and Deb's trips dating back several years. I know of very few operators who'd say no to any client signing on to fill slots (other than a blacklisted customer) so it's always caveat emptor.

I've also been on trips where non-photog people were shoved on to fill slots for a photog critter exploration and they kept asking for fishy sites vs muck diving (which the trip had been sold as). It's never pretty when that happens.

It is very unfortunate you did not fully enjoy your trip and you felt the food was subpar (but to compare it to SilkAir? Man that's harsh!). Supplies of gourmet food items is very limited in Papua Barat. Even the expats in the mining and pearl farms fly their stuff in. It's tough enough to get decent fuel prices in Sorong.

R4 does have great viz, depending on the time of year, lunar cycle and sometimes your luck. I've had good to great viz when I've gone. 45-60ft is norm in my experience (and it does vary a lot due to the tides) except for sites where the brackish water is a natural part of the ecosystem. It's not a place for constant 150ft viz (best I've seen was around 110ft). Pelagics? Well suffice to say there are one or 2 sites which are still pretty decent (and on occasion pretty amazing for the area). Yes the sharks have been longlined out years ago. In 96 when I first went there, we saw some big sharks (including S. Morrokan and G Cuviers) but by 2001, they were gone. I'm afraid that everywhere in Indonesia, if you've dived it in the 80s and early 90s, the effects of fishing (aquarium and commercial), warming waters and possibly dive boats have had VERY negative effects. I know 2 veterans of Indo diving, who've been diving in the area since the 70s, be not so impressed in Raja Empat.

The good news is that CI will be exploring the area next Jan for new dive sites since there are now up to 14 boats in the area and the best dive sites are overcrowded (and deteriorating with the increased traffic).

They have been running trips to that area for over 10 years, and probably know the area better then most.

Now that's not true. They started diving there in '99 (http://wetpixel.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=6085). See? A simple search on WP finds all sorts of strange 'facts'. Although I do find that whole the first americans claim a bit strange. I'm American and I was there in 97 and I know I wasn't the first. Ah well, that's advertising! Caveat Emptor.

[sgietler 1]

twhi,

 

Sorry about your experience.

 

I feel for you, after spending maybe $5000 on airfare+boat, it sucks not to be happy. I had friends who were on a channel islands liveaboard who had exactly the same experience you had. They wanted to visit different and deeper sites, and the boat just parked on shallow sites. They also said most of the other people were very happy on the trip.

 

I agree with Drew, you need to thoroughly research a dive boat and the area, especially for a trip this long & expensive. Vis varies greatly in any area depending on time of year. I don't agree that all photography trips sit on the same site all day, but many do, especially if they cater to dSLR wide-angle photographers. Some people love that, some people hate it.

 

When I think of pelagics, I think of galapogas, cocos, palau.. I'm not sure what you expected to see. I always thought RA was famous for pretty reefs, lots of fish, and mangroves.

 

Well I hope your next trip is better, and I hope you participate in the site more than just a couple posts.

 

Scott

Edited December 8, 2008 by sgietler

[debf 1]

I know of very few operators who'd say no to any client signing on to fill slots ...

 

Now that's not true. They started diving there in '99 (http://wetpixel.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=6085). See? A simple search on WP finds all sorts of strange 'facts'. Although I do find that whole the first americans claim a bit strange. I'm American and I was there in 97 and I know I wasn't the first. Ah well, that's advertising!

 

I don't usually reply to people who post their opinions of the trips I organize. Tom Witt's insulting comments about the divers who enjoy these trips are very upsetting to me, as are his several misleading statements.. so I'm going to make a detailed reply later.

 

Just a few quick comments now. We just got back from Indonesia yesterday...

 

"They have been running trips to that area for over 10 years, and probably know the area better then most." vazuw

 

Drew is right. It is 10 years, not over 10. Started with first group in '99. Each trip 21 days and longer. We've logged about 1800 dives in Raja Ampat.. and most all of those with groups I organized.. from 4 to 12 divers.. any more is too many.

 

I'd still have to say that we know the area better than most even if it is not over 10 years.

 

I was not, until now, aware that any other Americans were there before us. Who did you dive with, Drew?

 

Drew wrote "I know of very few operators who'd say no to any client signing on to fill slots".

 

Well, I'm one. I have and do turn down people who I determine are not going to fit in with the type of diving we do or the group aboard. I've been jumped on by people on this very forum for doing so and admitting it.

 

I quiz non-photographers extra hard since I know some of them want to dive differently. I have many non-photog regulars and new ones too ... but they understand how we dive before they send a deposit. I'm also turning down people with medical problems that put them (and the rest in the group) at risk of needing to return to port and ruin the trip. Fine with me if people want to risk their own lives.. but let them do it somewhere it isn't going to ruin 11 other diver's trip!

 

Tom's trip was full about a year in advance with a waiting list. I'd have been overjoyed to have compatible divers on that trip. While they didn't say anything to us on the trip about diving or food, there was a strange attitude that was even noticed by the crew. Probably the fact that they skipped about 1/2 the dives was a clue.

 

"Have dealt w/Deb before - "stubborn" might be an appropriate description..." oneyellowtang.

 

I am stubborn. No doubt. Might be a good quality for a trip organizer? When a dive operator or another guest wants to take the dive boat/tender away and leave divers unsupported underwater I throw fits. Really stubborn about that. When bags get left behind I'm really stubborn about seeing they get delivered ASAP to the guests. Lots more comes to mind. But I do listen to guests that book on our trips and do my best to accommodate their desires. Can't always do it as logistics and safety are also issues.

 

Thanks for the comments about R4, my trips, etc. to all those who have a lot of experience.. and especially scorpio_fish and vazuw... we've dived R4 together!

 

More later. Jet lag calling...

 

DebF

[Drew 0]

I was not, until now, aware that any other Americans were there before us. Who did you dive with, Drew?

Opps I'm mistaken. It was '96. The Pindito has been going out to R4 way before anyone else significant was. And a few americans slipped pass the eurocentric boat apparently Max probably told you you were the first american group. Then again, he does have memory issues sometimes I also returned in 98 with at 2 other americans on another boat. Back then Melissa's Garden was just called "Really cool 3 islets covering an area with fat sea snakes and gorgeous corals"

 

Well, I'm one. I have and do turn down people who I determine are not going to fit in with the type of diving we do or the group aboard. I've been jumped on by people on this very forum for doing so and admitting it.

 

I quiz non-photographers extra hard since I know some of them want to dive differently. I have many non-photog regulars and new ones too ... but they understand how we dive before they send a deposit. I'm also turning down people with medical problems that put them (and the rest in the group) at risk of needing to return to port and ruin the trip. Fine with me if people want to risk their own lives.. but let them do it somewhere it isn't going to ruin 11 other diver's trip!

 

Tom's trip was full about a year in advance with a waiting list. I'd have been overjoyed to have compatible divers on that trip. While they didn't say anything to us on the trip about diving or food, there was a strange attitude that was even noticed by the crew. Probably the fact that they skipped about 1/2 the dives was a clue.

 

Well, I guess your vigorous screening didn't detect the expectations of Tom and his group. Obviously, you can't please everyone and definitely can't be a mind reader. However, if someone was skipping 1/2 the dives, perhaps approaching them on the boat would've avoided this entire topic post altogether. Tom's position on the boat is fair since cuisine is highly subjective. His dislike of your intinerary, especially if you had furnished him with it beforehand and how you run your trip, is a little unfair, although he is totally allowed to have his opinion. That said, I dislike forum disputes between operators and clients, it never ends well and nothing comes of it.

I've moved the thread to the trip report area where it's more apt as it is Tom's view of the boat and charterer.

[Steve Williams 0]

Hi Deb,

I checked out you website, looks very interesting. Do you still have room for folks in 2009?

 

Cheers,

Steve

[bmyates 3]

I've been on three of Deb's trips - the first to St. Vincent and then two trips to Indonesia (including Raja Ampat aboard Ondina both times). The latest one - earlier this year - was perhaps the best dive trip I've ever been on. I credit Deb with helping make possible some of the best photos I personally have ever taken.

 

Quoting from a post I made about Deb three years ago, "I organize charters myself, and the reason I've gone with her (and expect to again in the future) is that she simply constructs and runs outstanding uw photo trips. She goes out of her way to think of every detail, and directs the dive operators she uses so as to maximize photo opportunities for her groups."

 

Deb is very devoted to one goal: providing her clients the best possible photo/video opportunities. She is not particularly interested in being a warm and fuzzy mother figure, and she won't rearrange the schedule to suit one or two divers at the cost of what the rest of the group wants (photo/video opportunities). When she finds a great photo spot (e.g., the Passage, which is a unique group of mangrove islands with great over-under and other opportunities), and all the photographers keep coming back dive after dive having seen/photographed great stuff and can't wait to get back in the water, she'll stay all day...or more. Before each wide angle dive, she makes sure one of the divemasters actually goes out in a ponga and gets IN the water to check the currents; if the currents are wrong/aren't ideal for wide angle (i.e., strong enough to cause soft corals to be feeding), she'll move to a different site. And as we all know, some of the greatest macro diving is in limited visibility ("muck dive"?).

 

I could see how that might annoy someone wanting to get to the next dive site to see something "new." As a photographer, however, I LOVE being able to spend all day in a great spot. And I love having someone who knows the area and dive sites always looking for ways to maximize great photo opp's.

 

While I'm sorry that Mr. Witt's trip didn't live up to his expectations, I think that is more a result of his expectations, rather than Deb's trip management. Could she possibly have warned him more fully that the focus of the trip would be photography/videography, including lots of potentially "boring" (to non-photographers) diving? Perhaps.

 

But I find it rather ironic that a non-photographer started a thread criticizing Deb for a trip that, as Tim put it, "Sounds like a photographer's paradise...", and did so here on Wetpixel. It has probably actually accomplished the exact opposite of what he intended, as it will likely glean Deb a number of new clients...

[Drew 0]

Bruce, to be fair to Tom, he's just writing a trip report of his thoughts of the trip. The tone is slightly sarcastic which is understandable with the disappointment but not needed to get his point across. If anything, Tom has helped Deb to detail her trip itineraries and the type of diving one can expect on her trips publicly. Hopefully future clients will read this thread and know what they are paying for. I certainly hope this thread doesn't degrade into a mudslinging match for either side.

As Sgietler states, not all photogs want to sit in a site and get the same photos of the same subjects as everyone else. I personally like to find new dive sites and spend at least 1/4 of the time trying new places, after talking to local fishermen.

You also have to consider other boats in the area. If a boat sits on a site for the day, other boats are left out or it gets crowded. The boats often point to the charterer/trip organizers. With 14 boats in the area, the 'hot sites' are starting to get crowded. The MPA will only succeed if more operators come in, something present operators don't want. That's why there's a plan to find more dive sites in R4, especially in the blue mangroves and other areas like near P. Boo area where everyone wants to dive as part of their R4 itinerary. But this is so I'll stop.

[tdpriest 115]

The food:

The kitchen staff were delightful and the food was seriously lacking.

 

 

I'd rather have it that way around than the other...

... and anyone who has met me knows (sadly) the size of my stomach.

 

 

At the risk of transatlantic amity being jeopardised, I have noticed that US citizens are far more vocal in their criticism of poor service and poor food and poor facilities than are europeans. Maybe we are closer to the origin of the stoic's philosophy, or maybe we don't have it so good at home (I'm thinking of diving for a weekend from an English seaside "bed & breakfast" boarding house, built in the early Victorian era and never redecorated, with breakfast rashers of bacon that approach American crunchiness, but from age rather than intent, run by a woman that looks like the late Benny Hill , here).

 

Applying the standards of the world's richest country to the developing world must be a mistake, and if we want those standards, the ecological price will be catastrophic, as it is becoming in Europe and America, Russia, China, Japan...

 

 

Tim

 

 

 

PS (as yesterday) a respiratory virus that has central England in thrall seems to have kept my patients away, so I'm browsing Wetpixel, again!

[Drew 0]

Tim,

I do think it's fair for Tom to expect more than instant noodles on an advertised luxury liveaboard and paying the prices charged by the organizer. Instant noodle has been indoctrined into Indonesian diet (much like spam was in the melanesian islands) by the sheer convenience of it. Certainly staying in homestays all over Indo on remote islands, I've had it more often than I like.

However, since he apparently didn't request for something different, it is a little difficult for the cooking staff to accomodate his tastes. I know when I get on board, my diet preferences are well established with the cook. In fact the cook is my best friend next to the cruise director. Now expecting Kobe beef steaks isn't reasonable but I'm sure Tom isn't requesting that. Fried food is an indonesian thing as well. I often ask for steamed veggies myself. If you don't try to ask, you won't get at all.

[debf 1]

Tim,

I do think it's fair for Tom to expect more than instant noodles

 

So do I. I've got to reply to Tom's post.. there is so much in it that is wrong.. misleading.. untrue. What a waste of time!! I just hope I don't get slammed for correcting him. Coming soon.

 

DebF

[debf 1]

I checked out you website, looks very interesting. Do you still have room for folks in 2009?

 

Yes. I have 6 trips (1 private). 3 are full. Check the info from City Seahorse Trips and email me privately from there.

[kdietz 0]

My wife and I were on the Ondina for the next scheduled trip with Deb and Tony.

 

Our group had several excellent, well traveled photographers onboard and I never heard a negative comment. Goes to show you how a bad apple can spoil the barrel.

 

We found the trip to be exactly as advertised and it exceeded our expectations due primarily to the hard work of the excellent crew and to Deb's experience and attention for creating a "photo rich environment".

 

This was by far the best "photography oriented" dive trip that we've ever taken.

[scorpio_fish 5]

At the risk of transatlantic amity being jeopardised, I have noticed that US citizens are far more vocal in their criticism of poor service and poor food and poor facilities than are europeans.

 

Well, to be honest, we in America don't often say, "Let's go out for some English food tonight"

 

 

Thankfully I haven't been on a live-aboard that served us high quality steak and kidney pie, blood pudding and haggis.

 

I can understand someone not liking the boat, or the food, or they way Deb runs the trip, or even Deb herself. I'm absolutely sure that we had at least one person on our boat who fell into one or more of those categories, but some of the statements made here were either mis-characterizations or from an unrealistic perspective. The idea that if one were on a different boat, the vis would have been better, they would have beamed you to Cape Kri for your checkout dives, pelagics would have been abundant and one would have gone to a different equally good "high voltage" dive site after every two dives is just false.

 

I had no intension of signing up for Deb's trip. I was searching for a Sorong to Sorong itinerary during a specific time frame. The only space available was the Ondina. I inquired about the trip right before Deb's and was told to contact Deb. We ended up taking the last two spots on her trip instead. It was just a convenience thing. So I'm not speaking as a fanboy multi-trip customer.

 

It is my opinion that being on Deb's trip yielded a better trip than if had I booked a standard spot on the Ondina or perhaps even most other boats. Photographically, I got exactly what I wanted out of the diving, if not more. I am not of fan of the boat. The food was OK. I've said enough. The original post needed a reasonable counterpoint.

[bmyates 3]

...If anything, Tom has helped Deb to detail her trip itineraries and the type of diving one can expect on her trips publicly. Hopefully future clients will read this thread and know what they are paying for. . .

...not all photogs want to sit in a site and get the same photos of the same subjects as everyone else...

...You also have to consider other boats in the area. If a boat sits on a site for the day, other boats are left out or it gets crowded...

 

Good points, Drew, and not really too far off topic because those issues are pertinent to anyone reading this thread/thinking of diving Raja Ampat.

 

Your post does, however, beg slight clarification on my part. I hope I didn't give the impression that Deb just "parks" the boat and dives one site all day every day, or that her Raja Ampat trips are mostly muck/macro diving. On the contrary; Raja Ampat offers such great wide angle diving that most of her itinerary focuses on that. In fact, most days she only does one dive per site and then moves because currents are only to her liking (optimal for photography) for one dive at a time, or maybe two. She'd rather return to that site another day when currents are similarly ideal than do another dive, than to stay for a second dive just to avoid pulling anchor. Frankly, I've never been on a boat where there were so many "one dive and move on" sites.

 

As for keeping other boats from diving a site (because of staying in one place), I agree that that is an increasing issue in Raja Ampat. My first trip there (which was with Deb in early 2005), we didn't see another dive boat the entire time. On our trip a few months ago, we saw numerous boats in numerous areas (e.g., Cape Kri). Deb communicated/coordinated with them who would dive where and when, and it wasn't a problem (we actually pulled anchor and moved at least one time even though we were there first), but I agree that as more and more boats dive the area, that will become more of an issue, and will require not only good communication between operators, but identification of more good sites to spread boats out more. Deb seems very cognizant of those issues.

Edited December 9, 2008 by bmyates

[debf 1]

This is really long… but I can't rest until I respond to this in detail!

 

I suppose I should thank Tom Witt for this opportunity. bmyates is right.. this gives me (and others) a good chance to point out what is good about Raja Ampat and these special trips. I'm viewing this as an excellent opportunity for good promo.. the more places he posts it, the better!!

 

 

TRIP RESEARCH

 

Tom's is one opinion, coming from a man who didn't take advantage of the webpages, newsletters, articles, galleries, links to previous guests galleries or the private 18 page trip FAQ to research this trip before he booked for himself and two friends. More on this at the end of my post...

 

Those documents explain that the trips are targeted toward photographers and to those who like to dive like the photographers. They explain about the days of open deck diving where we stay and allow divers to dive as much as they like and when they like; the diversity of marine life; the variety of environments we dive, such as the shallow sites Tom dislikes so immensely.

 

Check them yourself as they are all linked from my trip webpage:

 

www.cityseahorse.com/rajaampat

 

My trips are not for everyone. I always write "If you want to dive deep, go fast and do a different site on every dive, these trips are not for you".

 

I DO go to great lengths to describe what the trip is about. In addition to those readily available documents, I answer any and all questions from potential guests in great detail. Tom didn't ask questions... again details on this at the end of my post.

 

I request info from each guest so I can tailor the trip and weed out unsuitable divers. Unsuitable meaning those who aren't compatible with other divers or the type of trip I run. Tom didn't provide adequate information about his requirements or expectations.

I think it's just too bad that when Tom discovered he was on an expensive trip that wasn't what he expected, he couldn't have been open minded enough to find out the reason his shipmates were having a great time. Perhaps he could have learned something from the other divers or guides. Already several people from the Nov trips are planning to return and liked the idea of a 14 day trip so we can spend more days on the favorite dive sites.

 

Linda Cline already has a gallery from Nov. (and some nice comments about her trip with us) on her site:

 

http://www.dancingfish.com/gallery/photos/RajaAmpat08/

 

 

 

PASSIVE, SEDATE, COMPLACENT OR SHEEPLIKE DIVERS?

 

This is the phrase that really got to me!!! For SURE very few of the divers on these trips are "passive, sedate, complacent or sheep-like".

 

The other divers on the same trip as Tom's group certainly could not be described as such. I can assure you that they were not passive, but passionate! They explored, were creative, their minds were open to a variety of experiences so they enjoyed these very diverse sorts of dive sites and the opportunity to see those sites under different conditions.

 

They were a pleasure to be around.

 

While Tom sulked in his cabin his shipmates were spending time underwater, seeing unexplored areas they wanted to dive (so we arranged for them to go there), making beautiful images at the surface in the mangroves, finding places to do over/under images , seeing nudibranch species we've never found before, watching cuttlefish placing eggs in the reef, etc. etc. and enjoying their trip for the tremendous variety of environments and life that exist in Raja Ampat.

 

It wasn't until Tom's post on this forum that I realized he was probably sulking. I thought he was one of those people that was not comfortable being around other people. We've had several like that aboard.

 

 

 

VARIETY OF DIVING EXPERIENCES

 

 

I think of each Raja Ampat trip as a chance to make your own mini-Blue Planet documentary in 11-12 days.

 

I advertise my charters as offering a lot of variety with mangroves, shallow reef and rainforest dives, piers, mantas, small critter macro, fishy reef dives, dives on rock islands. That is what we do. All of it. Unless the majority of guests aboard want to do something different, I provide what I advertise. On Tom's trip everyone wanted to spend more dives with mantas, so I adjusted the plan to provide that.

 

There is no set itinerary. Each trip is tailored according to the conditions of weather, visibility, strength and direction of currents. We even vary mealtimes to accommodate diving at the best times. On Tom's trip the visibility was not as good as usual. So we spent the first part of the trip in areas where good vis doesn't matter so much, hoping for improvement. Didn't get it, but we did try! Usually we can find good vis by moving from the north to south or vice versa. Not this time. Universally poor.

 

Although we spend a full day on some sites, we don't dive the same areas seeing exactly the same things unless requested (which does happen frequently). Most of these sites are huge with a large and diverse variety of scenes and marine life to enjoy and photograph. The experience on a site changes during the day with the direction and strength of current and sun, tidal flow, etc. Just because you dive a site several times doesn't mean you have seen all it has to offer. I spend multiple days at some of them every year. There are still parts of them I've never seen and there are always new and surprising experiences even after 10 years.

 

Sure, you can blow down a reef in a few minutes; say you've BTDT and tic it off your lifetime dive site list. But if you become interested in watching or photographing the marine life and move slowly the experience is much richer and you see much more than if you are speeding along.

 

Comments were from others on the Nov. trips are that the variety of sites and marine life on this trip were far more than on any other trip they've ever made.

 

 

KEELING IN MUCK FOR SHOT OF NEMO?

 

Deep doesn't mean better.. it just means deeper and less bottom time. We do spend quite a lot of time at shallow sites. Those are some of the best sites and the reason we can offer so much variety. For example in Nov. at 10ft and above I encountered: reef sharks, Wobbegong sharks, the "Walking Sharks", seahorses, pygmy seahorses, many species of nudibranchs including 2 I'd never seen before; schools of silversides, bream, fusiliers and batfish; archerfish schools and cleaning stations, turtles, many soft corals, black corals and colorful fans… Really far too many creatures to name here.

 

Those sites Tom specifically berated are exactly the ones where most of the best images are made. Most photographers have trouble passing up an attractive "Nemo", I know I do, but these photographers weren't "kneeling in 35 feet on a mundane, ordinary reef dive after dive for yet one more photo of Nemo", they spent their trip swimming through and exploring a huge variety of underwater terrain while watching and photographing a diverse array of interesting and usual marine life.

 

One example. That shallow pier Tom mentioned happens to be one of the favorite sites for photography. Others on the Nov. trips produced images at that pier that ranged from stunning to breathtaking and I expect to see them taking top prizes in International UW photo competitions. Even Tom's non-photographer friend came made a very nice shot of mating Mandarianfish with his point and shoot camera (won a 2nd place in the trip contest) at that pier. One photog did a 2.5 hour dive. Couldn't get him out of the water! There were 6 dives offered that day. Two with mantas and four at the pier (pier was open deck). First two dives the pier had massive schools of bream and silversides, soft corals on the pier pilings, a fair sized school of approachable young batfish, large schools of several varieties of fusiliers, giant clams, cuttlefish at 5ft., nudibranchs. 2nd dive the kids were out of school so were fishing on the pier, paddling wooden canoes around the area and diving down to pose for photos. 3rd dive was for Mandarianfish (always a favorite subject), 4th pier dive was a night dive. All dives very different.

 

 

MISLEADING COMMENTS:

 

CABINS

 

"at least three of them had AC issues"

 

I will say that the AC units on Ondina are old and need replacing. My cruise director and I reported to the owners and they have instructed the crew to immediately replace any units that are not functioning correctly.

 

One compressor services two cabins. On this particular trip the AC in each cabin was checked before departure. Yet, on the 3nd day, one unit was sending all the cold air into one cabin and none into the other cabin it supported. We had an AC technician from a pearl farm come out for a look. He could not solve the problem so the guests were immediately moved into a different cabin. Problem solved. I took the cabin with no AC, added a fan and was quite comfortable. I learned the last day from Tom's cabin mate (not from Tom) that the fan in Tom's cabin wasn't pushing air properly… it was cold air, just fan not working. It was serviced between trips. Fan needed cleaning.

 

"and one of them had problems with fumes and exhaust from gasoline or diesel"

This was reported by Mark and Linda, who investigated when the problem occurred a second time. They determined that when at anchor with the breeze a certain direction it occasionally blew generator exhaust through the outside door into the cabin corridor where it came into their cabin through the vents in the door. Problem solved by keeping that outside door closed.

 

 

FOOD

 

"the food was seriously lacking. Fried something for almost every lunch and dinner. Instant noodles appeared more than once or twice".

 

If Tom doesn't eat fried food or noodles, there was ample opportunity to state his food preferences before and during the trip. There are other choices and the kitchen would have prepared something special for him if he asked. He asked only for "beer, cold, lots of it". As per his request we had plenty of beer!

 

Baked, steamed, raw, grilled, sautéed and boiled food also appeared. I'm not sure what fried food or noodle dish was a problem. Krupuk appeared at every meal (Indonesian version of potato chips). They are fried. I remember Tempura, a lightly breaded pan fried chicken breast stuffed with cheese and French Fries. Does fried include stir fried? Instant noodles? Not sure which noodles Tom' refers to. Ondina doesn't make noodles.. so all are "instant". Perhaps it was the Mie Kuah or the Mie Goreng? Those are standard Indonesian fare that most people like just fine and are some of our favorite dishes. As I said, there is always more than one choice.

 

Ondina doesn't offer gourmet food, just good tasting, quality food. I've noted in my years of travel that the best food is always local dishes, so that's the special menu I request unless guests' ask otherwise. We served mostly Indonesian dishes (Western style with less chilli and more meat/veggies) with some Western dishes mixed in. Excellent bread is baked every day on the ship as were fresh muffins, pastries. DOUGHNUTS are my favourite. Not the soaked in sugar goody masses of dough we get in the USA, but nice fresh slightly sweet ones with a few sprinkles of chocolate or sugar. There were different fresh soups at every dinner, sates, fresh salads (like green papaya, Gado Gado, mixed veggies), grilled fresh fish, sashimi, prawn and veggie Tempura, Beef Rendang, stuffed eggplants, some curries of different sorts, minced fish with spices steamed in a banana leaf, minced prawns or calamari with spices tied in a thin pastry bag, really good pizza, different freshly made sambals (chilli sauces) each day for those who like their food hot and spicy, etc. etc. Plus of course, always available fresh fruits like oranges, tangerines, mangosteen, passion fruit, rambutan, apples, bananas, pineapple, mango, papaya.

 

This menu has evolved over the years. We've eliminated dishes when the majority of people in the groups don't like them (even some of my personal favorites). Even when food it great, it sometimes doesn't suit everyone. Yet, I can't imagine choosing a dive trip based on the food. BTW, we can hardly find any restaurants in Fort Worth worth visiting. People here line up for plates containing huge quantities of microwaved tasteless glop at chain restaurants. We are sad to be home, but hope to lose some weight!

 

Comments from other guests served the same menu were that it was; the best liveaboard food they'd ever had; better than other top dive resorts in Indonesia (I could but won't name the specific resorts they mentioned.. they are ones noted for their good food); that they were overeating because it was all so wonderful.

 

 

 

DIVING

"Two entire days (10 hours per day), were spent at The Passage"

 

This is one of the favorite sites for most photographers. Actually we spent not two 10 hour days, but one short day (had to leave early as we had a long overnight cruise) and came back the last day as the site enforces shallow diving so that we can allow plenty of diving that last day before a flight the next. Max. depth averages 12-17ft. We used to spend only 1/2 day there, but the best images require certain conditions, so I am trying to offer a partial day mid-trip to have a better chance of getting those conditions.

 

"One day (four dives) at a small village pier. Depth about 15 to 45 feet."

 

Actually we did two manta dives in the morning (at the request of the divers aboard) and spent the afternoon at the pier. Depth 0-45ft. This was the pier I used as the example of different type of dives on the same site (see above).

 

"Another entire day (10 hours) was spent diving in a mangrove area."

 

That's true. It's a favorite spot, one that many divers request before booking the trip. I arranged the itinerary on the next trip so we could stay longer and yet several people asked to spend a second day. Unfortunately I could not oblige as they had requested we stayed two days at another area Tom hated and we needed to move or completely miss part of the diving around Misool. We are now talking with some of the Nov guests about a 14 day trip so we can spend more time at these favorite sites. Mangroves has excellent unusual wide angle photo ops.. plus loads of unusual nudis, ghost pipefish, odd fishes, shrimps, crabs, archerfish schools. I even found an archerfish cleaning station!

 

See my mangroves video from last April at http://www.cityseahorse.com/underwater-video

 

 

"the first afternoon spent on a checkout dive in Sorong harbor."

 

I've dived Sorong harbor. There is some nice diving for critters, but exceptionally poor vis. The 2004 Ondina contest winner was taken in Sorong harbor. However we didn't dive in Sorong harbor on this trip.

 

A few years ago Mikel took us exploring looking for good sites near Sorong. We found a good critter site just outside the harbor with zero to mild current, shallow. Perfect spot for checkout dives without going 5-6 hours to Raja Ampat and throwing divers into current for their checkout. Close means we can offer several dives the 1st day and then do the 5-6 hour cruise at night. On that site we've seen Wobbegong sharks, Raja Ampat epaulette sharks, Blue Ribbon eels, Spanish Dancers, frogfish with eggs!, anemones with a variety of anemonefish and loaded with shrimps and crabs, many nudibranchs, lobsters, eels, bommies covered with glassfish and cardinalfish, crinoid critters... it isn't Raja Ampat but it's loaded with stuff.

 

I translated 'open deck" to mean "lets save on our fuel costs".

 

In the quest to get to the best sites in good conditions we probably use more fuel than a set itinerary because we backtrack. (I hope the owners aren't reading this !! But if you do… hey guys we do try to save your fuel but not at the expense of the best diving.)

 

"A few friends and I repeatedly requested the lead dive master and cruise director for more sites like these but to noavail."

 

In the email with the invoice (3 divers) for the trip Tom received this paragraph: "I oversee everything on the trip and am the ultimate boss of it all. If, during the trip you have any problem with the ship, the crew, other passengers, the diving… whatever, please come to me directly. You can tell the crew if something needs repair, but also tell me so that I can follow up. Sometimes they do a repair and it doesn't "take", so I need to know if whatever problem you have is still not corrected. Then I can deal with it. For me, this is not a holiday. Although I do enjoy it and take some photos, my top priority is to be sure that divers in my group have a great trip."

 

During the ship briefing I again advised the group to come to me with any requests or problems so we could sort it out.

 

Tom and friends never made any requests to me about the diving. Not before or during the trip. I asked the cruise director if Tom requested anything from him. He didn't.

 

"It isn't about big fish. We saw just a handful of sharks, a few mantas, napoleon wrasse, jacks, and few other pelagics."

 

We saw fewer fish than usual on this trip, much less that in April/May. This was at least partially due to the poor visibility. I could often see large schools of fish faintly in the distance. Since Tom & friends skipped about ½ the dives, they may have missed the dives where we did see more sharks, larger and more fish. But for sure we dived a number of sites where you would never expect to see those sorts of things.

 

 

MY COMMENTS ON SMY ONDINA

I've visited many other ships I could charter. So far, I prefer SMY Ondina.

 

The crew is (as noted) excellent and stable. They are intelligent, skilled people. Many other ships go out with inexperienced crew that change every few months, new crew who don't know the area, poor and/or not enough dive guides (the reason I always check and add experienced guides). The other ships either aren't flexible, safe or are damaging the reefs. (Please don't misinterpret, I'm not bashing all other liveaboards… some ships are safe, not damaging reef, just aren't flexible enough to suit me. Others are for sure damaging reefs and I would NEVER charter one of them… and wish I could name them here). I've rejected all in Tom's list of recommended alternatives. Not that they aren't good ships, just not suitable to me for the small group, high guide/diver ratio, flexible, photography trips I want to run.

 

Ondina's owners and I work together to make the ship perform well for my (and their own) trips. Anyone who has been out with me knows that I always make a list of things that need improved, repaired or added to help make the next guests more comfortable or safe. The owners take my lists to heart and nearly all my suggestions are implemented before my return in about 6 months. The exception being our April 2008 trip - the one scorpio_fish was on. When I arrived I was appalled at the condition of the ship. I didn't see any reason to upset the guests, but at the end of that trip, I let the owners know that it was totally unacceptable and would be the end of my charters with them if it wasn't in shape before my May trip (4 days to prepare). I would cancel the other charters I had booked with them. It was mostly corrected. An unsuitable assistant cruise director/divemaster (Daniel) was fired at the end of my trips after I talked to Ric about him. There were a few things that couldn't be done in 3 days in Sorong but were done in September at mid-season dry dock.

 

Ondina isn't top luxury… (depends a bit on how you define "luxury") but it has an inside dive deck and wetsuit room with hot showers so that we and our dive gear isn't sitting in the sun, rain and wind; it has large dedicated camera rinse tanks right behind the camera table; it has cabins with plenty of storage space, lots of hooks, outlets for charging, individually controlled AC, ensuite bath; the ship is very stable and cabins are below deck so less seasickness; there are 3 public areas for relaxing; dive deck, camera table, charging and rinse is all on one level so cameras don't have to be carried up and down stairs; the food is excellent (according to most.. to me it is better than most any resort or restaurant in Bali for Indonesian cuisine);it is nearly insect free (always a couple of big bugs fly in.. and occasionally a few ants).

 

Sure, heated water for showers in cabins would be OK. The water is heated by the engine, so the first day or so after filling at port its cool, but after that, its bathwater temp, not cold, just not scalding. I guess while linen and crystal would be nice, but then I'd need to dress for dinner and that's a hardship after a night dive! Gourmet food? I have to ask the waitresses to put me on a "no seconds" diet as it is... and I doubt it would taste as good as the special Indonesian food we are served.

 

 

 

 

SUMMARY

 

It was very unfortunate that Tom had a bad experience. For all of us. It was also obvious to us that these 3 divers were on the wrong trip after only 2-3 days. The crew kept asking me why they were there. I fielded many complaints about the diving skills of these divers as they often created sandstorms and ruined photos by finning up the bottom in sandy or shallow areas. I didn't specifically see Tom doing that, only the other two so I asked the dive guides to stop them and point it out when they saw it happening plus it was addressed in the dive briefings several times.

 

I'm not a travel agent that simply charters a ship, collects the money and off you go! I put years of effort into learning the dive sites, checking out the ship before ever sending anyone on it and working constantly with the ship's owners to improve the ship's facilities and crew to make it easy, safe and comfortable for the divers aboard to relax and enjoy their holiday. I have worked with SMY Ondina's owners for years. They always take my suggestions to heart, nearly always implementing them and occasionally even improving on them

 

On both Nov. 2009 trips the cruise director, 3 dive guides and special dive assistant/tender driver were freelance guides. They do not work for Ondina. They were there at my request with the permission and assistance of Ondina's owners. I've worked with them and the crew for 2-10 years. They know what I want for our guests so well that I seldom have to do anything except make a choice about the itinerary or time for a meal.

 

I don't want to minimize questions about my trips. I want to prevent unsuitable divers (those who will not be happy, who have medical problems, who are frightened of diving, etc.) from booking onto my trips!!!!! The trips are always full (fingers crossed with this economy). Unhappy divers are not fun to be around... plus they write awful things on forums! I'm always aboard and the last thing I want to do for 12 days is be stuck on a liveaboard with someone who is not happy, complains or is rude.

 

My trips aren't for everyone. I wish I could do a 100% perfect job of matching divers to my trips. I try, but once in a while I miss one (or 3). And I wish that visibility, fish and critters weren't so darned unpredictable so that everyone could see on an 11 day trip what I've seen in Raja Ampat over the past 10 years.

 

It is extremely disappointing and disenheartening to put so much effort into providing a special trip and then find a review like this online.

 

I hope readers who are interested in Raja Ampat or a dive/photographers' trip to Raja Ampat will review other data and not base their choices on the angry comments of a dissatisfied diver who didn't do his research.

 

DebF

Deb Fugitt

www.cityseahorse.com/rajaampat

 

 

 

 

TRIP RESEARCH - MORE DETAIL

 

 

Pre-trip Tom stated that he and his friends were experienced divers with more than 20 years experience. 2 photographers, 1 not. He didn't ask any questions about the trip or the diving, only joking (I thought) questions about whether we could find a coelacanth for him to photograph, if there is a Starbucks and free Wi-Fi in the Sorong hotel for our overnight there and serious questions about the air travel, and how much freedom he and his dive buddy would be given to dive. I reviewed all the communications I had with Tom... that's it.

 

I did try to get them to let me put the non-photographer on another dive tender with other non-photographers so I could assign a different guide who would do tours of the dive sites instead of critter spotting and going directly to the best photo ops. Tom's group preferred to be assigned together so I complied with their request.

 

I ask each diver to complete a form that includes their food requirements. In addition to asking about allergies and intolerances there is a box "Meal Preferences. List likes, dislikes, diets. For example, do you like spicy Indonesian food? Can't tolerate it? Love fish, Hate fish? Vegetarian? Etc.". Tom's request was "beer, cold, lots of it".

The form also asks for goals so I can flag divers who won't be compatible with the trip or other quests and ask further questions to be sure they are on the right sort of trip. It is also used to help me assign compatible divers with the guide I know will be best for them. (1 guide for 3 or 4 divers). The text on the form is "What are your goals for this trip? (Get certain kinds of photos? See a specific creature? Relax & enjoy the diving? Have an adventure? We'll use this info to make a basic plan and group divers with others having similar goals.)". Tom filled his form with only "4 dives a day".

Once aboard, Tom barely spoke to me. I rarely saw him as I was doing most all the dives with my group while he skipped about half the dives. (His opinion of Raja Ampat's diving is based on about 25 dives or so).

 

When I was on board Tom was nearly always in his cabin, except at mealtime and he always sat at the other table. I asked his cabin mate if Tom was sick or upset! The answer was no, Tom was just quiet and seemed fine. Tom didn't speak with me about the diving during the trip, nor did he speak to the cruise director (except for a comment on the last day). I checked again before writing this. Tom's friends were often in the lounge when I was there and we chatted a bit every day. They never asked for anything about the diving, however the kitchen was cooking special meals for them.

[Drew 0]

That is certainly a long and colorful reply Deb. You are fortunate you have a few former clients who already supported you in replying to Tom (since you've named him publicly, I suppose it'd be rude to call him twhi) and fielded his criticisms very well.

I do think the crux of the issue is that your client probably failed to research and voice his issues during the trip, while you didn't "quiz extra hard" enough to avoid issues like this one from occurring in the first place. From your reply, the breakdown in communication between the 2 of you was very evident, even from the beginning. I think it best that both parties concerned should just lap it up to bad luck and move on.

[debf 1]

I think it best that both parties concerned should just lap it up to bad luck and move on.

 

Quite a lot of 20 year experienced divers/photographers who have access to my website and linked info understand perfectly the type of trip I run. I'm not hiding the details on the trips. If anything I'm pushing it on people who write me and book trips.

 

In the emails I write to people who enquire about trips I give the links in case they missed them somehow (like word of mouth referral) ... Links are even in the invoice and on my sig files. I feel as if I'm overdoing it as is.. so can't imagine quizzing people any further unless there is something I can turn up that indicates there is a problem. Which would be non-photographers, beginning divers, medical problems, posts like Tom has written to this forum, etc.

 

Would be glad to hear any suggestions on how to better qualify divers. Some people, like Tom and vazuw just don't use as many words as I do.

 

I would be quite happy to drop this.. I would be quite happy if it never started. I'd be quite happy not to deal with it at all. But Tom is joining forums (has not been a member) and posting this same thing to them. Sigh....

 

I'm getting telephone calls for trips because if this. And nice emails from people I don't even know who are advising me to reply to Tom on other forums so they don't only hear his side.

 

Thanks Y'All!

 

DebF