Spear fisherman kills tiger shark

[ryan m 0]

Drew and WP in general,

 

You can imagine these times have strung me out a bit and I would like to make a concise apology, not for these events but for my escalating frustraion and less than congenial candor on your forum. I do highly regard your thoughts and efforts to share and I do know that I don't have all the answers. I'm irish and analytical, I only speak when I have no doubt about what I'm saying and I'm quiet when I don't have the facts.

 

Most, and I mean most, spearos know how to deal with sharks through mentorship and experience. If this wasn't true then there would be tenfold more predator fatalities associated with the activity and it would have a poorer reputation than it does. I can't count the number of times I've passively interacted and also actively discouraged sharks of many types. I dive North Carolina, the highest biodiversity of chondricthyes in the world... and the visibilty usually sucks. We rotate dive sites, know how to posture, bump on occasion, exit the water often... but mainly just enjoy sharing the water with all animals. If we were any other way then where would that leave us 10 years from now?

 

I will let this rest here for now but will keep you all updated on any developments. Outside will be doing a conservation conscious follow-up and my next podcast will be a compilation homage of all the sharks I've filmed across the globe with a positive message. It's a start at least.

 

Safe diving and good lighting,

Ryan McInnis

[Drew 0]

Ryan, for my part, there's no need to apologize to me. I understand the duress you've been under.

I do think that it merits examining the basic different views of spearos vs photogs.

Photogs go into the sea with nothing to protect themselves except a shiny housing ( which, according to some, actually attracts shark attention). For those who dive in chummed dives, they should know and accept the risks involved. In fact the photog wants the shark to be close as to get better shots. The concern of conditioning doesn't really matter as the shark encounters are encouraged rather than discouraged. Obviously, accidents happen and humans being so fragile, the possibility of severe injury or death in encounters is very prominent. Strangely though, most participants accept that risk and do not dive with powerhead spearguns or shark shields.

Spearos, on the other hand, are in the water to hunt fish, and this activity brings them in contact with sharks. Many of them will fight for a fish kill against any predator. Some hang fish around their waist and thus have a different personal space distance than photogs. Many a spearo truly believe in the Pavlov conditioning and would fight off sharks rather than surrender their catch, believing the sharks will frenzy and be more dangerous, and worse, will be conditioned to hearing the click of a speargun and associate it with mealtime. That, the need to protect the catch and the fact the catch could be on their persons means the tolerance for shark encounters are lower. For a few, even the need to project humans as alpha creatures to sharks makes them want to fend the sharks off aggressively.

The very fact that a photog has no speargun to shoot puts them in a better position to not harm the shark. Armed with a housing as the only defence, the encounters tend to be well within the 2ft range with big sharks. I can only speak for myself in that my heart pounds pretty hard when I'm encircled by C.Brachyurus, Limbatus, Leucas, Obscurus or G Cuvier. My encounters are often in natural feeding conditions so the sharks are pretty riled up. They've charged at me at good speed but break off when I react with my housing. I'm sure anyone who's done the Aliwal Shoal dives know how the C. Limbatus take snaps at fins frequently.

If one goes through forums like spearboard.com, there are quite a few stories of people admitting to using powerheads or spearing sharks in self-defence or to protect their catch. So the phenomena does apparently happen.

The higher tolerance of photogs to close encounters with big sharks does give pause for spearos to think whether their comfort levels are too low. It is up to the individual to decide for themselves but the examples of photogs experiencing very close encounters with big sharks in similar circumstances (chummed water) hopefully will give spearos some food for thought.

Better yet are examples of spearos who champion shark conservation like Andre Hartman. His work with C. Carcharias and the very close encounters he has with them speaks volumes about what can be learnt.

In my observation of tiger sharks feed, they tend to circle and test bite cautiously in the beginning. This was my observation with a dead green turtle carcass in Oz. My own experience in water with big sharks is that they will tend to approach from behind for such test bumps. They also tend to back off once discovered and there is a threatening reaction. I've only gotten up to 5 runs before the boat arrived to haul my butt out of the water. 3 of them were very similar to what was depicted in Ryan's video.

I'm wondering if anyone else can share their experiences with tiger sharks, especially when they are deemed as aggressive.

[loftus 42]

I've been following this thread, and refrained from participating, because one hates to second guess someone when I wasn't there.

I do not consider myself a highly experienced shark diver, but I have spent 5 (or maybe 6) days at Tiger Beach with anywhere from 1 to 12 Tigers in the water at one time. Having been literally bowled over by big Emma, and hundreds of bumps up against my rig, nips at strobes etc, I have to say that nothing I have seen in the videos related to this thread indicate that this Tiger was behaving any more aggressively than what I have experienced, and if the type of behavior shown was considered aggressive enough to fight back and kill a shark, there would be no Tigers left at Tiger Beach. I will admit though, if I had not been fortunate enough to have this experience at Tiger Beach, I would probably be a lot more spooked by the encounter shown in the video.

So unfortunately I still have to conclude from what I have seen that this is an unfortunate incident that is understandable, but probably did not have to happen. If the divers had experienced more close encounters with Tigers, I feel certain they may have given this individual the benefit of the doubt, and been able to get out of the water safely. I'm still puzzled as well by the fight to the death part, maybe leave an injured animal, that possibly has a chance to recover. One also has to ask the question, if faced with the same situation again, would they do the same thing again.

Edited March 18, 2009 by loftus

[Drew 0]

Leaving it wounded wasn't an option

Jeff

Ryan's quote was based on the ethos among some spearos to keep whatever they shoot (not waste), and also never to leave a fish injured (which is also wasting). We should note that only Craig Clasen shot the shark. Ryan and DJ were just recording the event.

I think the bigger risk Craig took was to finish the tiger after he shot it once. Most spearos will agree that one spear is enough to scare off the shark. Finishing it off is just part of the sport code for some spearos.

[loftus 42]

Jeff

Ryan's quote was based on the ethos among some spearos to keep whatever they shoot (not waste), and also never to leave a fish injured (which is also wasting). We should note that only Craig Clasen shot the shark. Ryan and DJ were just recording the event.

I think the bigger risk Craig took was to finish the tiger after he shot it once. Most spearos will agree that one spear is enough to scare off the shark. Finishing it off is just part of the sport code for some spearos.

I guess that would make the point that once the decision was made to engage the animal, the object was to kill not deter.

[Drew 0]

Yes well, some other spearos also follow this principle:

http://www.spearboard.com/forum/showthread...highlight=shark

 

When you are shooting fish, the mentality is totally different for some. Same thing for some photogs who have no regard for sealife for the shot. Or any other inconsiderate act for that matter.

 

In that pic that Ce4jesus linked, that is the shark that Ryan mentioned Roberto Reyes shot. Their story is here:

http://spearboard.com/showthread.php?t=21397

 

The mentality is definitely different from photogs, judging from those posts. While many photogs accept the risk of getting bitten with these close encounters, some spearos seem to consider it turf defense and a fight for dominance. Obviously those threads don't represent all spearos and I'm not linking posting those posts to judge them, just merely show the different mentality. It'd be interesting to open dialogue with them and see what we can learn from each other. I'd hope that given the choice, most spearos would choose not to kill a shark and show a higher tolerance of encounter space before pulling the trigger. It's the experience of close encounters without a speargun to create that aggression that allows photogs to stay calm. And also the obsession of looking through the VF all the time. LOL.

[scubaseven 1]

It was there to feed and not scavenge. 36 hours we dove there with plenty of reasons for a big shark to come in and nothing. Finish the day and a Tiger poses this threat. I'm done justifying. You won't ever see the footage nor a framegrab, no one will. Regardless of what it shows someone will want to debate it, well the case is closed.

 

Ryan M

 

If you and the "spearo" have nothing to hide then why are you hiding the "smoking gun"? I dont think too many people will debate it if the footage does show an aggressive, charging shark. Sure, once in the water you are in the sharks territory. But if the two guys in question felt so bad about killing the shark why the photo with the shark and the big grins? If you guys want your 15 minutes why not just tell a decent lie at least. To say you battled an aggressive shark for 2 hours seems a bit ridiculous to start with. Sure grabbed the spotlight tho.

[jeremypayne 0]

"Seven":

 

I'm not sure why you have to resort to calling these guys liars. DJ and Ryan - who were brave enough to wade into a pretty hostile forum to tell their side of the story - deserve more respect than you have shown.

 

I don't think I agree with Craig's decision to kill the shark, but I wasn't there and I certainly don't have cause to question DJ and Ryan's integrity or their honesty.

 

Stick to writing emails to PETA.

[loftus 42]

One little anecdote; hopefully to add to the discussion. About 2 1/2 years ago I was on a spearo boat out of Fort Myers to the Dry Tortugas and Marquesas. I was the only photog out of 16 people. These were drift dives, and talk about diving alone. When the boat stopped; the captain came over the intercom and said 'Kill' which was the signal that the pool was open. Spearos dived off the boat in every direction, so for the 45-55 minute dive you were pretty much alone. When surfacing we would often have a 20-30 minute wait on the surface while the boat went around in a big circle picking up the dispersed divers. On one dive I hung out with my friend John, a dive shop owner and avid hunter, above and below the water. He bagged a couple of hogfish and a grouper or so on the dive, and we were doing our safety stop when an interested bullshark started circling us. Being the good buddy that I am I backed off pretty rapidly, expecting my friend to drop his catch bag and let the bull have a free lunch. No such thing! Under no circumstances was he going to surrender his catch, and when the bull came in to try to take his bag on two occasions, he prodded the guy off with his spear, and the bull eventually left. Needless to say I was not a happy camper floating on the surface for 20 minutes or so waiting for the boat to pick us up. When I spoke to John about it afterwards ( He is in his fifties and has been doing this for years) he was surprised that I would even think that he would relinquish his catch, and said this type of thing had happened to him a number of times over the years.

Interestingly he does not really approve of the shark chumming photog trips that I do.

Edited March 20, 2009 by loftus

[danielandrewclem 3]

But if the two guys in question felt so bad about killing the shark why the photo with the shark and the big grins? If you guys want your 15 minutes why not just tell a decent lie at least. To say you battled an aggressive shark for 2 hours seems a bit ridiculous to start with. Sure grabbed the spotlight tho.

 

Seven,

If you'd read more carefully through this thread, you would have learned that the photo of the two grinning spearfishermen and their catch is unrelated to this particular event. TWO DIFFERENT SHARKS.

[Drew 0]

If you and the "spearo" have nothing to hide then why are you hiding the "smoking gun"? I dont think too many people will debate it if the footage does show an aggressive, charging shark. Sure, once in the water you are in the sharks territory. But if the two guys in question felt so bad about killing the shark why the photo with the shark and the big grins? If you guys want your 15 minutes why not just tell a decent lie at least. To say you battled an aggressive shark for 2 hours seems a bit ridiculous to start with. Sure grabbed the spotlight tho.

Seven1970

As I already pointed out in my earlier post, the 2 guys in the photo linked by Ce4Jesus are Roberto Reyes and Eric Walker, NOT Craig Clasen and crew. There is an picture in the linked reports with Craig Clasen holding the tail and jaws (cleaned off) of the tiger. There's no need to have this tone in your post as it just detracts from the discussion.

One little anecdote; hopefully to add to the discussion. About 2 1/2 years ago I was on a spearo boat out of Fort Myers to the Dry Tortugas and Marquesas. I was the only photog out of 16 people. These were drift dives, and talk about diving alone. When the boat stopped; the captain came over the intercom and said 'Kill' which was the signal that the pool was open. Spearos dived off the boat in every direction, so for the 45-55 minute dive you were pretty much alone. When surfacing we would often have a 20-30 minute wait on the surface while the boat went around in a big circle picking up the dispersed divers. On one dive I hung out with my friend John, a dive shop owner and avid hunter, above and below the water. He bagged a couple of hogfish and a grouper or so on the dive, and we were doing our safety stop when an interested bullshark started circling us. Being the good buddy that I am I backed off pretty rapidly, expecting my friend to drop his catch bag and let the bull have a free lunch. No such thing! Under no circumstances was he going to surrender his catch, and when the bull came in to try to take his bag on two occasions, he prodded the guy off with his spear, and the bull eventually left. Needless to say I was not a happy camper floating on the surface for 20 minutes or so waiting for the boat to pick us up. When I spoke to John about it afterwards ( He is in his fifties and has been doing this for years) he was surprised that I would even think that he would relinquish his catch, and said this type of thing had happened to him a number of times over the years.

Interestingly he does not really approve of the shark chumming photog trips that I do.

Thanks for that Jeff. That experience does add a lot as it shows the attitude of some spearos regarding sharks. Many spearos detest the chumming of sharks for photos regularly, as they believe (as do I) that there are associations made. On the other hand, spearos will admit that same fear of sharks associating feed time with the click of a speargun going off. This is especially true of places where sharks are still common. This is why many spearos rather fight off sharks than give up their catch. Of course there's also the element of defending their catch and fear of getting the sharks into a frenzy as well.

One has to consider that both activities may actually have the same effect of conditioning sharks to interact more with humans. That effect for photogs is desirable but for spearos it is not. I don't think it's too far of a stretch to imagine that the tiger Reyes shot could be one of the tiger beach fed sharks. USVI is close enough to the Bahamas, and Louisiana isn't that far for a tigershark. Being accustomed to people, the sharks more likely to approach less cautiously. Unfortunately, spearos will get spooked due to having fish in the water and bad things happen.

Since neither activity seems to be anywhere close to be curtailed, it is up to the image shooters to help explain shark behaviour to spearos, who tend to look at sharks from a very different point of view. Ryan says the tiger was moving in fast. Yet quite a few of the photogs happily say it's normal speed. I wonder how many of these shark kills could've been avoided if spearos had the same tolerance of proximity by apex predators as photogs do.

[danielandrewclem 3]

it is up to the image shooters to help explain shark behaviour to spearos, who tend to look at sharks from a very different point of view

 

No one group—spearos or photogs—has a monopoly on stupidity or enlightenment.

[Drew 0]

No one group—spearos or photogs—has a monopoly on stupidity or enlightenment.

 

I think you are misreading my suggestion, Daniel. Nobody is claiming superiority here. If a bit of knowledge sharing helps expand another person's knowledge and possibly help save a few sharks from being killed. It's neither naive or optimistic to hope for that.

[MIKE POWELL 1]

I still feel a tap on the nose with a speargun or camera the Tiger Shark would not have been a threat...had I not photographed them at Tiger Beach I may have tripped out and done the same thing...I'm no expert but that's my story and I'm sticking to it!

[scubaseven 1]

Pretty simple I would have thought

maybe you guys dont have the guts to say what you really think, even behind the keyboard

if a shark is dangerous and the boat is nearby, get in the boat

if you "have" to battle a shark for 2 hours then why was no one even bitten.

if they are not lying then why not release the footage.

and jeremypayne why not crawl back to your rock also, keyboard cowboy.

if you would not say it to their/my face dont say it at all

 

my bad if the photo was not related. But why post it then?

[TheRealDrew 0]

Pretty simple I would have thought

maybe you guys dont have the guts to say what you really think, even behind the keyboard

if a shark is dangerous and the boat is nearby, get in the boat

if you "have" to battle a shark for 2 hours then why was no one even bitten.

if they are not lying then why not release the footage.

and jeremypayne why not crawl back to your rock also, keyboard cowboy.

if you would not say it to their/my face dont say it at all

 

my bad if the photo was not related. But why post it then?

 

 

If you look thought all the posts, many people did present rather strong opinions about the situation. DJ and Ryan came on (which took some guts considering the audience and the reaction) to try to explain. Drew and others also had conversations that I think were positive and there was also some back and forth there, including some things that were a bit tense (for a lack of better word) in light of the situation and everyone is trying to communicate via a keyboard and a board, which can be difficult.

 

And even then people expressed concerns and discussions about behavior based on circumstances and how people will react in various circumstances. It seems that at some point the following is happening (a) they are lying, which people can believe or not, (b) they reacted based on circumstances as they perceived them at the time and people can debate what they would have done in the circumstances. There was alot of discussion about who would have done what, and in fact many of use can still arm chair quarterback, partricularly more so when they are other experiences with sharks, though as Jeff pointed out there is a certain difference and how he saw things develop in the incident who wtinessed.

 

Ryan has been pretty clear in that he is also working on things to try to help with sharks and DJ mentioned he has photos of things that we would all find horrific.

 

Talk about behavior of sharks, debate the approaches, but at some time it is probably better to try to rectify or understand the situation as much as possible. Would I be saying that if they did not take the heat and come in to engage a audience that would be hostile? Probably not. But at this point a benefit of the doubt may be worthwhile and if they can get the things they have out and help push the message perhaps we should take them at their word.

 

I am not happy a Tiger Shark was killed and do not condone the thought. But read everything above and I think to continually bash as oppossed to engaging in discussion and thought about what could be a positive outcome in a sh!!ty situation is worth thinking about.

 

Alot easier to be a keyboard cowboy to bash them when it is easier path of rigtheous indignation. A bit harder to try to not bash and try to digest the matter despite what instinct and visceral reaction is and egage in a good dialogue even when you disagree.

 

Just my two cents, but the lead and conversation from Drew and Jeff, for instance, seems to be a more worthwhile line of reasoning. Nothing will bring back the shark, unfortunately, but perhaps good can still come out of this.

Edited March 21, 2009 by TheRealDrew

[Drew 0]

Pretty simple I would have thought

maybe you guys dont have the guts to say what you really think, even behind the keyboard

if a shark is dangerous and the boat is nearby, get in the boat

if you "have" to battle a shark for 2 hours then why was no one even bitten.

if they are not lying then why not release the footage.

and jeremypayne why not crawl back to your rock also, keyboard cowboy.

if you would not say it to their/my face dont say it at all

 

my bad if the photo was not related. But why post it then?

 

I really do think you should read ALL the posts BEFORE you make your statements as it is all clearly explained in the posts and the links. If you don't wish to do that, I strongly suggest you skip this thread as continual negativity against Ryan and DJ with all that has been stated is unneeded. As for whatever is happening between you and Jeremy, please take that offline.

[stewsmith 14]

my opinion is still the same.

 

Ryan you felt in danger when you were alone and armed with only your camera. Then you shout for help. your 2 friends come over with spear guns. A spear is fired into the shark. At this point why did you not head back to the boat and get out. You say something like " I am a camera man and thats what I do " so you were fearing for your life when the shark had no spear in it. Then when it had been speared you felt ok. I would have thought that the shark would be in a more agressive mood having just been speared. But you did not think to get out. You thought you would stay in the water. This just doesnt make sense to me. I have seen nothing within the photographs or in the interviews that supports your claims. If you had footage of the shark being agressive towards you I would have thought that showing that would be your defence to all of us non believers. I would change my opinion if the evidence was put in front of me, but until then I stand by my opinions. No one on this forum will change that, how ever nice they might be and whatever words they use. You have gained credibilty for joining the forum and also for defending your group, but for you not to show the " smoking gun " which would put closure to negative comments seems odd. From my perspective, looking at what has been put in front of me, is that you guys have gone out for a days hunting and got your prize.

 

As I have said this is my opinion and it counts for nowt.

 

Stew

[scubaseven 1]

As for whatever is happening between you and Jeremy, please take that offline.

 

I am sorry but that was the 2nd time JP jumped in. I did try to resolve things via private mail.

Cheers to all.

[ryan m 0]

Cheers to all?

 

I'm a very calm and rational person. I won't respond to trash from those that haven't taken the time to read what has been posted on this thread. I've stated that the only danger was before the first shot and that what I didn't reveal of the footage was the graphic nature of spear impact and excessive blood. Were I to be interested in attention or making a buck I would release it all without regard for decency.

 

References to Tiger Beach are not apples to apples as those sharks are accustomed to human interaction. Tigers are not robots made on an assembly line, they are not all the same. The shark in question did not have a name and had likely never encountered a human before as there are only a handful of people that swim in the middle of the gulf.

 

DJ and I remained in the water for the same reason DJ and Craig came to my aid... we are a team. To leave his side was no more an option than leaving a wounded shark in the ocean. As fellow ocean appreciators I thank the rest of you for attempting to maintain civility on this thread.

 

Ryan

[Drew 0]

Ryan

Thanks for the response. Being in the public eye does have its pitfalls as you've found out.

You are right that tigers are not robots. We've all conceded that nobody truly knows what is going on in the shark's mind. However, the same behavior of drifting in to test the prey has been observed in 3 continents on the same species. Even with dead turtle carcasses, the tigers circle around and do test runs.

The contention from me is that Craig did not use the speargun to push the shark off when it came in for a 2nd pass. I'm not trying coerce a confession from you that Craig panicked and messed up. That'd be a useless statement, just as remorse is. This is about prevention of future incidents of unnecessary killings.

However, in hindsight and added information from other sources, if you even consider the possibility that the shark's speed was normal and it wasn't as threatening as you thought it was, then hopefully the next time there won't be a shark killing. And if you perpetuate this knowledge to other spearos, it'll do a lot more good than screaming at you for what has happened.

Your acknowledgement that the tigers accustomed to human interaction act differently does bring up an excellent point to discuss. Due to their comfort with people, the tigers are more likely to approach ANY diver when they detect the presence of food, say from a spearo hunting. Now because the spearo is not accustomed to having a 12ft shark approaching VERY closely and seemingly threatening, the shark gets shot or powerheaded. That has always been a big issue as a side-effect of chummed dives, and one of the reasons I disapprove of regular scheduled shark dives.

However neither activity is going to stop anytime soon, so the only way to curtail this issue is to stop hand feeding sharks and educate spearos to have a higher tolerance for close encounters.

I do have to add many of the tigers at Tiger Beach aren't "residential". The range of tigers are pretty amazing if you followed the research done on satellite tagged tigers in Australia and Hawaii. Obviously it's a little late to try id that particular tiger unless DJ can send photos of it to someone like Jim Abernethy who has a collection of pics of the tigers in his dives and can possible identify the shark. That would be of scientific value as they'd be able to extrapolate the range of the shark if it is indeed one of the Tiger Beach sharks.

This issue is the same in Kwa Zulu Natal South Africa. I've spoken to a few spearos regarding their encounters with the tigers in the area. The chum feeding has been going on for years and the C. Limbatus and tigers are quite used to people. A spearo I talked to mentioned how he first encountered a tiger while on a hunt. Fortunately for him, he's worked for one of the tiger dive operators but has never been in the water with tigers. His very first encounter was shocking but that extra bit of knowledge from his work with the tigers helped him stay calm. He prodded the shark away and went back to the boat.

Regarding the video, has there been any pressure for you NOT to release the tape from other spearos as there were more than a few comments on spearboard.com on that? Like when the unfortunate death of a diver during one of the chummed dives last march, the fear of negative publicity to the activity and as such, people were rallying on both sides to push their agendas.

[emaltorio 0]

http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=74037951270

 

Looks like Ryan has his hands full defending on every forum !

[H2Oplanet 0]

Let me be clear that, I THINK that this killing was unmerited. My opinion is based upon reading everything I could about this incident, looking at all the stills and video made available, speaking directly with DJ about it and lastly weighing my personal experiences with Tigers (3 weeks with numerous Tigers at Tiger Beach and one scary encounter at night in the Marshall Islands).

 

I believe DREW and several others have guided this thread in a very productive way. The opinions, experiences, perspectives and testimonials shared on this site and others will hopefully educate others that may someday be faced with similar decisions. I only hope the outcome will be different more often than not.

 

That said, DJ is a friend and a fellow photographer. He has a significant understanding of the ocean and it inhabitants honed by a formal education in Marine Science and countless hours in and around the water. I know him as a kind and rational person with an extremely strong appreciation for conservation and the environment. Given the same set of circumstances I may well have made the same decision to document the experience photographically. That said, I suspect I would have used the images in a different manner.

 

At the end of the day, I believe that this is a healthy discussion and hope that it will continue without the attacks that serve no useful purpose but rather alienate, polarize and put strong personalities on the defensive.

 

Cheers,

 

Scott Marshall

www.H2O-planet.com

[NWDiver 42]

"I didn't reveal of the footage was the graphic nature of spear impact and excessive blood."

 

Sorry I am not buying it. The already released images are plenty graphic. Make a buck or don't but I will be a jerk and say I believe the footage will show a bad decision was made. Reality is most people can deal with how "graphic" it is. If the clip shows a real threat, subjective I know, I apologize in advance.

Edited March 24, 2009 by NWDiver

[stewsmith 14]

http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=74037951270

 

Looks like Ryan has his hands full defending on every forum !

 

Wait until the animal rights activists find out where he lives !!!! Then he will know what being scared means.

 

Stew