Sea Shepherds Ady Gil collides with Japanese whaler

[DeanB 19]

Eric, I'm not sure why that video had to be leaked either. I would've released that right away. It suer makes the crew of the Ady Gil look pretty innocent in the collision.

 

Doesn't matter when it was released really ... However your right the SS crew are not the guilty party its defo the Japanese that rammed the ady Gil ... Pretty easy to work that out ...

 

Dive safe

 

DeanB

[Andy Morrison 1]

Doesn't matter when it was released really ... However your right the SS crew are not the guilty party its defo the Japanese that rammed the ady Gil ... Pretty easy to work that out ...

 

Dive safe

 

DeanB

 

In the court of public opinion it matters tremendously . Its headline news day one and buried day two. And I only said it made them LOOK innocent . Sometimes in a game of chicken nobody blinks.

[wagsy 0]

Who ever was driving the Ady Gil should of really been (reading the road) seeing what the Japaneese were doing and ready to maneuver out the way or be in a position to do so.

Pretty bad though....whats next?

[Drew 0]

I think it's a lot of conjecture on everyone's part on what the intentions of the skipper of the SM2 was. It seemed that he was making an intercept course for the Bob Barker, which from the SS released video from the Bob Barker , correlates the direction it was heading in. Whether he was going to make a pass at the Ady Gil with the hoses, which had been harassing the ship just minutes before with lasers and butyric acid, and either badly misjudged or was incompetent is something the public won't know for a while.

What I have surmised is that both sides will do and say anything to further their own agenda, and the SS are tremendously more media savvy. Then again it seems the ICR is only concerned about what is portrayed in Japan. The rest of the world seems to be an after thought. I mean to hire a PR guy like Inwood, who can't even spin a bottle cap. Like it or not, there are over 6 billion people on earth and not all of them care about whales or see them as anything else but meat or another "fish". Imposed doctrine or ideology is precisely why we have so much death in the world, which some argue is a good thing, so long as they're on the winning side.

[Andy Morrison 1]

I think it's a lot of conjecture on everyone's part on what the intentions of the skipper of the SM2 was. It seemed that he was making an intercept course for the Bob Barker, which from the SS released video from the Bob Barker , correlates the direction it was heading in. Whether he was going to make a pass at the Ady Gil with the hoses, which had been harassing the ship just minutes before with lasers and butyric acid, and either badly misjudged or was incompetent is something the public won't know for a while.

What I have surmised is that both sides will do and say anything to further their own agenda, and the SS are tremendously more media savvy. Then again it seems the ICR is only concerned about what is portrayed in Japan. The rest of the world seems to be an after thought. I mean to hire a PR guy like Inwood, who can't even spin a bottle cap. Like it or not, there are over 6 billion people on earth and not all of them care about whales or see them as anything else but meat or another "fish". Imposed doctrine or ideology is precisely why we have so much death in the world, which some argue is a good thing, so long as they're on the winning side.

 

Well stated. My feeling is that, while one may admire Sea Shepherds for what they are trying to do, one shouldn't be surprised if they get their nose boodied in the process. It is called Whale Wars after all.

[DeanB 19]

Well stated. My feeling is that, while one may admire Sea Shepherds for what they are trying to do, one shouldn't be surprised if they get their nose boodied in the process. It is called Whale Wars after all.

 

Exactly ... And its never been questioned that its not going to be a battle for both sides and propaganda will be a major weapon in any conflict thats more than obvious. We see it here all the time with fox hunting, something else thats outdated and carried under the banner of 'tradition'. The pro-hunters use propaganda all the time and have the backing of some rich peeps to boost it. Not long ago the pro-hunt lobby did poll which they claimed 55% of the English population were happy with fox hunting only to be revealed that most of those polled were hunt supporters, then a major independent group polled the whole of the UK which revealed that 75% of the UK disagreed with it. However, i've seen there are people and groups fighting lots of different causes all over the globe and this just happens to be one of them and one that gets the most media attention ... For now.

 

I expect alot of people around the globe haven't really thought or looked into the whales situation and do see them as just animals and food but thats where education comes into it ... Isn't it education and information something that changes peoples attitudes and has done for generations...

 

Dive safe

 

DeanB

Edited January 10, 2010 by DeanB

[james 0]

I tend to agree w/ Colin's assessment from a seamanship standpoint. If you are approaching a vessel that has the right of way over you the standard is to turn behind the vessel with the right of way. That would explain the SM2's turn to stbd.

 

I also agree that if the AG did not gun their engines and shoot in front of the SM2, there probably wouldn't have been a collision.

 

Cheers

James

[Andy Morrison 1]

I find the argument of who's at fault based on seamanship to be amusing and a moot point for the most part.

 

It's not like it was a collision between two vessels who were minding their own business and accidentally ran into each other. This didn't happen in the dead of night in 1910. Both vessels were involved in a high stakes game of cat and mouse.They both could have avoided this collision had they chosen. Under normal circumstances the whalers shouldn't have gotten so close and the crew of the AG shouldn't have let them. But they are combatants of sort.

 

Frankly I think both sides will feel like it was good for their cause.

[Giles 1]

I tend to agree w/ Colin's assessment from a seamanship standpoint. If you are approaching a vessel that has the right of way over you the standard is to turn behind the vessel with the right of way. That would explain the SM2's turn to stbd.

 

I also agree that if the AG did not gun their engines and shoot in front of the SM2, there probably wouldn't have been a collision.

 

If you are going to go the route of seamanship then it is all opinion. Both could have avoided and caused this incident. However the right of way may have been given to the AG due to them being to the STB of the SM2, but the AG is MUCH more maneuverable and so in reality the SM2 will always have right of way in this situation. If the AG was in some sort of trouble with it's engines NOT working rather than being turned off then it is very different. Yes from the leaked video we can see that they were not expecting the collision, but were trying to slow the SM2 down. They apparently had tried to do this one too many times.

 

The point still lays down that the crew of the AG have done something very brave and brought a very important topic into main stream news by risking their lives many are paying attention.

[Drew 0]

The point still lays down that the crew of the AG have done something very brave and brought a very important topic into main stream news by risking their lives many are paying attention.

 

And again push the news of a failed industry misappropriating and misusing Japanese money in Japan farther back, further stalling the end of whaling in Japan indefinitely while it stokes the nationalist flames. I'm sure the rest of world's knowledge may have improved, in fact I had 2 conversations about it at dinner last night. Too bad they weren't Japanese! I usually like to give facts and let people deduce what they want from it. But if people think continuing to fuel the nationalism in Japan and prolong whaling for another 50 years is effective, then I'm really interested in that vein of thought. Let's see, average of 400-500 whales killed a year from Japan, avg of 4-500 from Norway and Iceland (which is bought up by Japan ad quotas will most certainly go UP), no end in sight, 50 year extension... probably more than 50,000 whales dead.

Help kill domestic support including public opinion and legal prosecution of misuse of funds, highlight whaling as a negative in Japan. Whaling dies in 10-20 years after slow decline. More than half the dead whales. FYI the numbers are estimates and conjecture but it's there to make a point. Do you want to win the battle or the war?

 

Just so you think SS is doing well in Japan, the Japanese are claiming the AG was armed and showed this in JAPAN mostly since we don't hear this much in the rest of the world:

 

Japanese picture of arrows

 

So the Japanese now think the AD was armed with steel tip arrows and reinforces the terrorist angle. It doesn't really matter if they planted it or if it was really there. The ICR are out to convince the Japanese only, not the rest of the world. Pretty weak compared the SS claimed shooting and "hostage situation". But if it works in Japan, that's all that's needed.

[diverdad 7]

Their campaign STOPS whales being killed ... Let other org's like Greenpeace continue their 'peaceful' protests and 'hearts & minds' offensives but while the SS crew or out there they are slowing the number of whales being killed... If we had to rely on talking, these sentient beings would be being slaughtered in greater numbers. If the SS crew stops one whale being killed then thats a bonus and worth the money in my humble...

 

As i said the 'heroes' on board the SS vessels are grown adults making up their own minds and are much braver than most of us here (including me) for getting out there and doing something about it ...

 

And if old spinsters want to send their money to SS or the cats protection league thats totally up to them its funding no matter how much you look down at it...

 

People can sit there, type and throw facts and figures and scientific theory about what's happening, thats their views and it looks like they know what their talking about... To them But to me the SS crews direct action is what most of us have been wanting to do for years but are to scared to be 'un PC' to do it .... Look at the Soldiers shooting poachers in Africa and India wheres the uproar about that, the poachers are human are they not and some with families to feed... The poachers know the law and they try their luck some are not so lucky...

 

I expect we've all got a priority list of 'what should come first' and 'where peoples funds should go' as someone said earlier whales are not the shepherd's only fight, just a big one of many ...

 

Dive safe

 

DeanB

 

Spot on Dean

 

Lee

[DeanB 19]

Then the battle will go on ...

 

Dive safe

 

DeanB

[allen 4]

"Vessels at sea do not actually have any "right of way"—they are, correctly, in the position of being 'stand on vessel' or 'give way' vessel. This means that at no time should any vessel actually navigate its way into a collision situation, and the rules are clear that no one in command of a vessel should assume a "right of way" and should at all costs avoid a collision."

 

Two ports do not make a starboard.

[ColinMunro 0]

Another video you may find interesting. Taken from the Shonan Maru no. 2. It appears to be taken over the period leading up to the collision. Of interest, I think, is the Ady gil's technique of cruising alongside, then making fast passes very close under the bows of the SM. You might be tempted to argue this was an accident waiting to happen.

 

Sometimes these passes are done when towing lines to entangle the SM's prop and disable her. The use of laser to blind the crew is fairly well illustrated. Look out for what the projectile (an arrow?) fired at the Shona Maru.

 

I note also that Sea Shpherd's claims that they abandoned towing the Ady Gil because it was sinking, but that they removed all fuel and lubricants beforehand now seem in doubt. The Japanese have apparently released photographs of it still afloat and leaking fuel.

 

I know there are strongly opposing views here on the effectiveness or otherwise of the Sea Shepherd's confrotational approach. However, as someone who has spent rather a lot of my time working at sea on vessels large and small over the past thirty years I take a rather dim view of the crew of the Ady Gil's rather cavalier approach to the safety of people's lives in a very hostile environment.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7q3wQ0Ux8TI#t=1m16s

[DeanB 19]

[quote name='ColinMunro' date='Jan 10 2010, 08:49 PM' post='237449'

 

Sometimes these passes are done when towing lines to entangle the SM's prop and disable her. The use of laser to blind the crew is fairly well illustrated. Look out for what the projectile (an arrow?) fired at the Shona Maru.

 

I suppose the use of an LRAD device on the SS crew and worse the airbourne helicopter and even the throwing of bolts and other metal objects at a RIB is okay then ... All I see is the SS crew matching metal with metal ... A few stink bombs onboard at the start was not really that harmful ...

 

Dive safe

 

DeanB

[Timmoranuk 10]

IMO. in this event Sea Shepherd have positioned themselves alongside other extremist animal rights organisations like PETA, the Hunt Saboteurs, the Animal Liberation Front, etc. and, for me, they have removed the last vestiges of any credibility they may have had. Their stand at last year's NEC Dive Show, manned by inarticulate, emotive, incredibles typified the rationale of this organisation. No thanks Paul Watson...

[WanderingBob 2]

IMO. in this event Sea Shepherd have positioned themselves alongside other extremist animal rights organisations like PETA, the Hunt Saboteurs, the Animal Liberation Front, etc. and, for me, they have removed the last vestiges of any credibility they may have had. Their stand at last year's NEC Dive Show, manned by inarticulate, emotive, incredibles typified the rationale of this organisation. No thanks Paul Watson...

 

Sadly, I have to agree, and have said it before ... Paul Watson puts his people in a position where life or limb is the sacrifice. Would he do the same himself? Is the cause more important than the individual? Is the individual (Paul) sacrificing other's instead of himself? There has to be a better way ...

[dirtydave 0]

I think you're missing the point,these people are putting themselves in harms way to make a statement and to get publicity for their cause. While you are entitled to your opinion you don't seem to have too many ideas to help stop whaleing, at least none that you are sharing. Some people arer just talk, blah , blah, blah. what are we doing to prevent the senseless slaughter of these innocent animals?

 

Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against eating meat and have willingly killed animals raised on the farm back in the day when I was on the farm. Whales don't really fall into this catagory though. They are being killed to use in animal food as there is not enough of a market as human food. Even the Japanese don't eat much whale meat.

 

Sort of like the campaign to kill sharks for their fins. Wasteful and it is decimating the shark population. Killing sharks makes as much sense as killing polar bears. There is no reason to hunt whales.Period.

Whether or not the Ady Gil was responsible for the accident is immaterial. The Sea Shepards are taking the fight to the enemy, I'll support them all I can.

[DeanB 19]

I think you're missing the point,these people are putting themselves in harms way to make a statement and to get publicity for their cause. While you are entitled to your opinion you don't seem to have too many ideas to help stop whaleing, at least none that you are sharing. Some people arer just talk, blah , blah, blah. what are we doing to prevent the senseless slaughter of these innocent animals?

 

Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against eating meat and have willingly killed animals raised on the farm back in the day when I was on the farm. Whales don't really fall into this catagory though. They are being killed to use in animal food as there is not enough of a market as human food. Even the Japanese don't eat much whale meat.

 

Sort of like the campaign to kill sharks for their fins. Wasteful and it is decimating the shark population. Killing sharks makes as much sense as killing polar bears. There is no reason to hunt whales.Period.

Whether or not the Ady Gil was responsible for the accident is immaterial. The Sea Shepards are taking the fight to the enemy, I'll support them all I can.

 

Agreed ... I think its condescending and demeaning to the bravery of the crew of the SS to keep blaming PW for 'their' adult choices. If they really didn't want to carry out his orders then they would not. I get the feeling that some on here either agree with whaling, have other agenda's or don't really care. Okay human life is precious but its their own choice like its others choices in what they do to make.

 

But watch out DD if your messages are not 'articulate' or full of 'scientific fact' then you won't be taken seriously ...

 

Dive safe

 

DeanB

[james 0]

I think a more effective way to change Japanese policy is a boycott of Japanese products - I may have stated this earlier on it the thread. This was highly affective at ending apartheid (divestiture in SA) and could be effective here.

 

Cheers

James

[ColinMunro 0]

'Fraid I have this fondness for facts. If I put my car in to be serviced, and am charged £300. If I ask the mechanic what they actually what parts they replaced and I get a reply like 'Well I really feel that your car is much better vehicle than it was before, I truly believe that.' Well I'm afraid that doesn't cut that much ice.

 

Now the facts that are available. Sea Shepherd is a far wealthier organisation than it was say ten years ago. SS has more employees, more ships, more corporate and wealthy individual sponsors. Equally, SS has clearly spent quite a few million dollars over the past decade - on vessels, campaigns etc. Additionally, a few people have been hurt in the process. If you were going to be uncharitable you could point out that they took what was one of the least environmentally friendly vessels on the planet into the Southern Ocean and have left it there as a wreck leaking fuel.

 

What I don't know, and fact see any evidence of, is that during all this time, after all this money, they have reduced the number of whales being killed but Japanese or Norwegian whalers by as much as one whale. As far as I am aware the number has increased.

[Timmoranuk 10]

I think a more effective way to change Japanese policy is a boycott of Japanese products - I may have stated this earlier on it the thread. This was highly affective at ending apartheid (divestiture in SA) and could be effective here.

 

Cheers

James

 

Given the state of their economy and the strong Yen which is crucifying their export markets this could be a very good strategy. I'd be a poor example though. My life is full of Mitsubishi, Canon, INON, Toshiba, Pentax...

 

There was of course a very efficient industry which 'laundered' South African commodities to make them 'consumable' by the rest of the world. So boycotts only had a very limited effect in reality and I'm sure the Japanese would be equally inventive.

Edited January 11, 2010 by Timmoranuk

[DeanB 19]

I think a more effective way to change Japanese policy is a boycott of Japanese products - I may have stated this earlier on it the thread. This was highly affective at ending apartheid (divestiture in SA) and could be effective here.

 

Cheers

James

 

But wouldn't this be hitting all Japanese people and not just the Whaling industry ??? ... That would certainly strengthen their resentment ...

 

Everyones got or seen facts and figures to further their causes and I suppose we will always support the sides we truly believe in ...

 

Dive safe

 

DeanB

[tdpriest 115]

... Sea Shepherd have positioned themselves alongside other extremist animal rights organisations like PETA, the Hunt Saboteurs, the Animal Liberation Front, etc... Their stand at last year's NEC Dive Show, manned by inarticulate, emotive, incredibles typified the rationale of this organisation. No thanks Paul Watson...

 

Thanks, Tim.

 

I am all in favour of conservation, and question hunting potentially sapient top-predators, both on moral and ecological grounds, but I have grave reservations about Sea Shepherd. I'm not at all sure that they have achieved anything but a hardening of entrenched opinion, seeking publicity by dangerous and probably illegal behaviour.

 

The Ady Gil is a prime example of the Sea Shepherd strategy: a "sexy" vehicle and completely inappropriate for the job. It looked as if it was intended to be broken...

 

I wouldn't demean anyone's bravery, Dean, but stupidity seems nearer the mark in the publically available material released by Sea Shepherd themselves.

 

James is right: the only things that will work are significant economic sanctions and domestic political pressure.

 

It's a pity about all my Nikon lenses...

 

Tim

 

Edited January 11, 2010 by tdpriest

[Drew 0]

I think a more effective way to change Japanese policy is a boycott of Japanese products - I may have stated this earlier on it the thread. This was highly affective at ending apartheid (divestiture in SA) and could be effective here.

I think it's easier for people to give up buying De Beer diamonds and kudu meat than remove the conveniences of japanese products. The the economic (divestment) boycott of South Africa was effective because it was a civil movement. If I remember any of that book I read in 1996, the UK and US government never tried to push economic sanctions through the UN, ostensibly because the UK and US has significant holdings in SA. Of course there was no oil to worry about either (hence the thumb twiddling in Nigeria). It was civil movements that forced corporations to pull investment in companies with major SA interests.

I've tried boycotting the illegal whaling countries of Iceland and Norway. Iceland is easy since their food exports aren't something I eat often (although I think it's a beautiful place to visit and want to go back). Actually, a boycott of Iceland vacations may actually be counter productive. By supporting the whale watching industry in Iceland, you can build more economic and political clout for those who are pro whale to shape Iceland policy. By total boycott, it actually kills the whale watching industry and thus any hope of ending whaling in Iceland.

For Norway, the only thing I could boycott were the Norwegian girls, who were very happy to oblige .

'Fraid I have this fondness for facts.

Unfortunately, people hear what they want to hear. Facts can't change but interpretations (however erroneous) can differ, especially if people want to hear them that way. That's the basic principle of marketing, subterfuge and obfuscate.

 

The fact is more Norwegians and Japanese feel strongly against the often hypocritical (from their viewpoint) and strong arm tactics waged by organizations like the SSCS and even Greenpeace, not to mention the anti-whaling governments than they do about the morality of killing whales. So if these reactions are anything to go by to measure the effectiveness of such campaigns, I'd find it very hard to really interpret it any other way than as a failure.