Optical for 7D?

[fotoscubo714 0]

I was all "gunho" on wanting to go optical fiber until I read the following in Berkley's report on the 7D in particular : ".....Unfortunately, the recycle time of the pop-up flash can be as long as 3 seconds which can feel like an eternity for an advanced shooter...."

 

 

Drew (Controller/Video Expert) suggested Zillions approach with a hot shoe adapter.

 

I tried to find more info with a search, but was unable to find the information I wanted as:

 

1.what is this adapter?

2.what does it do?

3.will it fit in any housing?

4.how much is it and where can i get it?

5.possible DIY project from having a modified hotshoe connector fire an LED?

 

Any information on the above be much appreciated. Thank you!

 

Bo

Edited January 17, 2010 by fotoscubo714

[Timmoranuk 10]

As I understand it, Zillion's LED trigger does not provide S-TTL functionality and you may need some extra INON gadgetry to workaround the problem of strobes firing on the pre-flash pulse. Take a look at Tony Wu's blog...

 

http://www.tonywublog.com/20090720/seeing-the-light-2.html

Edited January 17, 2010 by Timmoranuk

[Gudge 58]

If you don't want to shoot manual and not sTTL put the 7D's internal flash into manual mode and set the power very low, it will recycle very quickly.

 

When I shoot my 50D/40D using sTTL using fibre optic I rarely have problems with recycle times. Using an appropriate metering pattern for the subject and getting a correct exposure is important to keep recycle times low. Using the Flash Exposure Lock capability with spot or partial metering pattern and recomposing before shooting helps a lot for difficult subjects, eg small bright subject on dark background. If the camera does not think that the subject has not been exposed sufficiently according to the metering pattern it is using (despite the view in the LCD and the histogram saying otherwise) the internal flash will keep pumping out light to attempt to light the subject more. As none of this light reaches the subject the internal flash will end up doing a full dump leading to slow recycle times.

Edited January 17, 2010 by Gudge

[bvanant 189]

Bo:

I was under the impression (probably wrong) that the Zillion guys were using the Inon optical converter, which you can (or used to) buy from Reef for a couple of hundred. If you are getting a housing like the Nauticam, it has both optical and electrical sync bulkheads so you can do both. I have a Subal housing that like Gudge was modified to shoot optical and his techniques have really made the recycle time a lot less noticeable. Shooting either Z240 or S2000 strobes, I have had no issues with a 50D and recycle time and relatively fast shooting and the 7D supposedly has a bit faster flash recycling according to Canon. In any case, I haven't noticed that the camera flash is slower than the strobe recycling.

 

Bill

[Alex_Mustard 0]

It becomes more of an issue on cold water. I was diving with Alsky in the UK in December and he found his recycle time was very frustratingly slow. He'd never noticed a problem in all his diving in warmer waters. Note that the water was cold!

 

Alex

[Gudge 58]

If you don't want to shoot manual and not sTTL put the 7D's internal flash into manual mode and set the power very low, it will recycle very quickly.

I did a quick test at home with my 7D with the internal flash set to 1/128 power (should be enough to trigger an external strobe via fibre optics if you're shooting manual and not TTL) and drive mode in high speed continuous and the internal flash fired every time the shutter released for as long as I was happy to hold the shutter release button down shooting JPEGs (with RAW I got the same result except that after 20 shots the buffer filled up and the camera stopped shooting).

 

When I get my 7D housing I'll try this again with external strobes attached.

[fotoscubo714 0]

I did a quick test at home with my 7D with the internal flash set to 1/128 power (should be enough to trigger an external strobe via fibre optics if you're shooting manual and not TTL) and drive mode in high speed continuous and the internal flash fired every time the shutter released for as long as I was happy to hold the shutter release button down shooting JPEGs (with RAW I got the same result except that after 20 shots the buffer filled up and the camera stopped shooting).

 

When I get my 7D housing I'll try this again with external strobes attached.

 

Thank you all that responded and a special thank you to Gudge for taking the time for testing.

 

I also did some testing today and can confirm Gudge's post on unlimited continious flashing on manual, 1/128 power and average metering on a medium reflective subject.

 

I also tested the multiple strobes control from the 7D menu, with older Canon 550EX, 240EX, and a Sigma 500 Super. I took a series of shots with the 3 auxiliary strobes as slaves (Channel 1 - A+B,C, also A,B,C,) with and also without the 7D flash (both ways require the flash in up position).

 

I love this new Canon camera feature and vary the power and ratios between the 3 and 4 flashes from just the camera menu. No messing with individual flash settings/controls, no readjusting flash angles, and freedom to change only camera angles from a hand-held camera. Continuous fast flash was practically unlimited using large JPEG and partial flash power settings set from the camera.

 

I want this creative lighting capability available to me underwater (3 or more flash control). Only way I see is through optical cable transmission. Am I correct in my thinking here for macro and close-ups?

 

Again, thank you for all that responded.

 

Bo

[greedo5678 1]

Bo,

 

Sorry to sound stupid, i am just about in invest in my first housed DSLR, the 7d and aquatica housing, but why would you rather optical than electrical sync, as you get the option when you order the aquatica housing?

 

Surely one of the reasons to spend moeny on strobes is fast recycle time? i was gonna go with inon 240's. Why waste that by then having to go to manual and having to wait for the camera, or in this case changing a shed load of settings to make it work each time? does the camera reset these settings after being swtiched off?

 

What does optical give over sync cords? p.s i have optical cables now for my epoque strobes which i have found to be unreliable.

 

Olly

[bvanant 189]

Bo,

 

Sorry to sound stupid, i am just about in invest in my first housed DSLR, the 7d and aquatica housing, but why would you rather optical than electrical sync, as you get the option when you order the aquatica housing?

 

Surely one of the reasons to spend moeny on strobes is fast recycle time? i was gonna go with inon 240's. Why waste that by then having to go to manual and having to wait for the camera, or in this case changing a shed load of settings to make it work each time? does the camera reset these settings after being swtiched off?

 

What does optical give over sync cords? p.s i have optical cables now for my epoque strobes which i have found to be unreliable.

 

Olly

The big advantage of using optical strobes is that you get TTL without any external or internal adapters like the Matthias ones. Using the optical strobe link, the camera uses the actual strobe to figure out the lighting and then adjusts the strobe output. I had my Subal 40D housing changed from electrical to optical sync (Like Gudge did) and I have had no problems with having to wait even in colder Los Angeles waters. Also, there is the sync cord reliability issue and also price. Optical sync cords can get wet with no issues and if one breaks you can fix it with a razor blade in the field. I won't comment on the Epoque situation except to say that Epoque and Inon are completely different.

Bill

[Alex_Tattersall 90]

I found the recycle time a bit annoying as Alex pointed out but I was using a cheap battery on a 500D rather than a Canon one, I think that might have had something to do with it.

 

Alex

[fotoscubo714 0]

Bo,

 

What does optical give over sync cords?

 

Olly

 

Hi Olly,

 

Wired sync cords are just sooo old school .

 

But listen to who is saying this. I'm old, OLD school shooter. I still prefer to shoot my modified Ikelites with the old, old manual EO connectors. From decades of use I just know my strobes power output and adjust their subject distance accordingly via the arms. I like shooting WA more than CU and never got the TTL to work more reliably than with my experience.

 

Over the decades I have a fortune in EO and Ikelite TTL cords. Each costing over $100.00-$200.00 each for special splitters etc.( and these were the prices back in 1970-80!) Over time many of the Ikelite cords have started to develop intermittent electrical shorts from cracks, breaks or leaks as well as some of the EO's (although most still work great after 40+ years of use). The reason why I love the EO connector system, is that I can take multiple systems on a trip and exchange my strobes underwater.

 

With me finally upgrading to the "new school" 7D I also want to go with the new optical method of strobe connection. From reading the forums here on Wetpixel I have "seen the light" to going optical. My reasons why:

 

1. Much cheaper (especially in bulk).

2. Allows connecting and disconnecting while underwater (just like my old EO).

3. Connector does not need metal connector pins that eventually corrode or break.

4. Easy low maintenance.

5. Easy to replace/repair by myself

6. Allows multiple flash exposure control from the camera as the controller.

7. E-TTL availability in CU/macro.

8. Slave strobes triggering and have output control from the camera via long (affordable) cables.

9. Much lighter in weight and easier to travel with.

10. Outer insulation material much more environment resistant than wired.

11. If insulation is damaged the optical cable will not short out and damage electronics.

12. No need for housing penetration by bulkheads that require careful attention or maintenance.

13. Broken cables easily spliced and repaired in the field without needing much skill or tools ( actually a variant of #5 above).

14. Cables much thinner and creating less drag in strong currents.

15. Makes you look thin (just testing if you are still reading...LOL)

16. Easier to make custom lengths of cable myself.

 

If anybody has knowledge of any other additional benefits for going optical, please add. If I'm incorrect in my list, let me know too, for I'm an old student open to learning in a new school.

 

Bo

Edited January 25, 2010 by fotoscubo714

[greedo5678 1]

foto,

 

Thanks for all the advice. and now i am clear. Had never thought about the corrosion of connectors and metal parts, and that is a massive factor here in the tropics. The air is always humid and things never dry properly so big point.

 

And i guess the lack of penetration of the housing means the cables just stick to the outside of the housing? or some sort of external slot/shoe? Anyway, another load off the mind when theres a couple of grand at stake.

 

I guess it all makes sense to go 'new skool' (thats how u spell it when ur down with the kids!) but final Q, if the internal flash has to be popped up does the housing not have to be made larger? and what happens if u forget to pop it up before you jump? no strobes for the dive or is there an ext button on the housing?

 

Olly

[Gudge 58]

.... if the internal flash has to be popped up does the housing not have to be made larger?

A lot of the newer housings coming on the market are designed to have enough room to raise the flash (and will come with fibre optic connectors built into the housing). With older housings it is possible to convert Canon dSLR housing to fibre optics by adding fibre optic connectors to the housing (I've done this with my Subal C40 housing). The internal flash on Canon dSLRs only has to be raised a few millimetres to work and there is generally enough room in the housing to do this. On the other hand Nikon dSLR internal flashes have to be fully raised and there isn't enough room in older housing to do this.

 

 

and what happens if u forget to pop it up before you jump?

I don't know about Nikons but on Canon dSLRs all you have to do is put it in full auto mode and half press the shutter to focus while focussing on something dark, the flash will automatically pop up. Just put the camera back into the mode you shoot with and you're in business.

[fotoscubo714 0]

I guess it all makes sense to go 'new skool' (thats how u spell it when ur down with the kids!)

 

Olly

 

Yes I'm so old I still remember when we could spell and speak in complete words and full sentences.

 

This homie still learning to TXT and Tweed new skool

[greedo5678 1]

"I don't know about Nikons but on Canon dSLRs all you have to do is put it in full auto mode and half press the shutter to focus while focussing on something dark, the flash will automatically pop up. Just put the camera back into the mode you shoot with and you're in business."

 

Now why didnt i think of that... duh.

 

Thanks

[Stewart L. Sy 12]

As one who's going to be using wired strobes on my AQ7D, have a question: What's the rated life of the on board flash? If one is reliant on the on camera unit to trigger your external strobes, I'm concerned about the flash tube's life expectancy.

 

Stu

Edited January 26, 2010 by scubastu

[fotoscubo714 0]

As one who's going to be using wired strobes on my AQ7D, have a question: What's the rated life of the on board flash? If one is reliant on the on camera unit to trigger your external strobes, I'm concerned about the flash tube's life expectancy.

 

Stu

 

Hi Stu,

 

With my 7D I'm not too concerned with "camera flash burn out" as the trigger and control of the slave units can be done with the camera flash set on minimal power (1/128th power in manual flash control setting) or even with it in camera "flash-off" setting but still set as master for multiple flash lighting.

 

I have tested and confirmed this with older Canon and Sigma topside flash units. I do not know if these settings will work with the Inon or S&S underwater strobes (I still have old Ikelite wired strobes). Maybe somebody else here on Wetpixel that has these strobes can confirm this?

 

Bo

[jimmmarks 0]

I found the recycle time a bit annoying as Alex pointed out but I was using a cheap battery on a 500D rather than a Canon one, I think that might have had something to do with it.

 

Alex

I think you stop using a cheap battery on a 500D.

[Stewart L. Sy 12]

Hi Bo

 

Setting your on cam flash to fire at 1/128 is fine if you ONLY want to trigger an optical slave, be it underwater or topside. If you want to use the on cam flash as the remote TTL commander for ETTL capable flashes, you can have it contribute or not contribute to the exposure, in both cases, the flash fires and if set to contribute to the exposure, it won't stay at 1/128th, it'll fire at whatever ration/power the camera needs....or you set. I can vouch that it works extremely well having just finished a commercial job where I was controlling 2 groups of Speedlites with varying ratios remotely from camera. The client thought that was pretty cool.

 

If you want to be able to use DS-TTL, as Berkley noted, then you are at the mercy of the recycle time of the on camera flash, it does take a few seconds (regardless of battery, I use OEM LP-E6's and one still waits), as you know, when there's lots of action going on, you don't want to wait for a strobe to recycle. If you simply want to just keep firing, then setting the on cam flash to 1/128th to trigger the optical slaves is fine, as tested by others, recycle time is instantaneous.

 

My concern is, over say a 2 week dive trip, it's not uncommon to fire well over 3-4 thousand images. The on cam flash is enclosed in an insulated environment, and heat can build up. The air surrounding the camera inside the housing is a poor conductor of heat, it's not like it'll quickly dissipate (assuming it's present). Our UW strobes are designed to release heat into the water. So, back to my musings, will the on cam flash withstand 1) repeated firings over a short period of time, 2) withstand the heat build up of these firings. I know even Canon's top of the line Speedlite (580ex2) or Nikon's SB900 will to into thermal shutdown after about 10-15 full power pops....

 

Again, just musings as I have no first hand experience with this.

 

 

Hi Stu,

 

With my 7D I'm not too concerned with "camera flash burn out" as the trigger and control of the slave units can be done with the camera flash set on minimal power (1/128th power in manual flash control setting) or even with it in camera "flash-off" setting but still set as master for multiple flash lighting.

 

I have tested and confirmed this with older Canon and Sigma topside flash units. I do not know if these settings will work with the Inon or S&S underwater strobes (I still have old Ikelite wired strobes). Maybe somebody else here on Wetpixel that has these strobes can confirm this?

 

Bo

[fotoscubo714 0]

Again, just musings as I have no first hand experience with this.

 

Hi Stu,

 

I'm with you on this.

 

We'll have to wait till somebody has a housing and the strobes to test this. Both Aquatica and Nauticam allow for both strobe activation methods. Hopefully the strobes can just be switched back from optic to wire, if your concerns are true. Or otherwise we are back to the Zion-style adapter solution to generate the optical trigger.

 

I'm willing to test this when I get my housing and strobes and risk repair on my camera flash. But I'm probably not going to be the first.

 

I'm curious if S&S is coming out with an ergonomic housing for the 7D, anybody heard anything?

 

Bo

Edited January 28, 2010 by fotoscubo714

[Gudge 58]

So, back to my musings, will the on cam flash withstand 1) repeated firings over a short period of time, 2) withstand the heat build up of these firings.

I converted my Subal C40 housing to fibre optics back in mid 2008 and have used it extensively with both the 40D & 50D on both local diving and trips to Indonesia (all of which are warm tropical waters where heat build up problems should be aggravated). Never had a problem with the internal flash being used heavily over short periods of time or heat build up.

[fotoscubo714 0]

I converted my Subal C40 housing to fibre optics back in mid 2008 and have used it extensively with both the 40D & 50D on both local diving and trips to Indonesia (all of which are warm tropical waters where heat build up problems should be aggravated). Never had a problem with the internal flash being used heavily over short periods of time or heat build up.

 

Cool! Are you having the optical cables provide camera E-TTL II control to the strobes as well or is there only strobe triggering from the flash?

 

I see no problem with any of this with Macro. But how does optic TTL hold up when shooting close up wide angle? Scenario I'm envisioning is shooting an active bait ball while shooting a Tok 1017 FE or Sigma 17-70Macro and have very fast action and I'm shooting in continuous high speed @ 8fps (and why I got the 7D)

 

In this scenario I want to focus on the action and not on strobe settings and recycle times.

 

Bo

[Gudge 58]

Cool! Are you having the optical cables provide camera E-TTL II control to the strobes as well or is there only strobe triggering from the flash?

I use the camera's internal flash to shoot using Inon's sTTL system for macro.

 

I see no problem with any of this with Macro. But how does optic TTL hold up when shooting close up wide angle?

TTL of any kind rarely works well with wide angle, I always shoot wide angle with manual strobe control.

[Mike L 0]

Bo, to really take advantage of the 7d's fast continuous shooting, hard wired strobes are the way to go. A little over a a year ago, Eric did a test with the Canon 1d MKIII and Sea and Sea YS250 strobes. His test is a video (posted here on WP somewhere) showing the YS 250 strobes firing for approximately 6 of the 10 frames...VERY nice for shooting fast action, but would definitely be slowed if using fiber optic ttl.

 

Although TTL itself is not always extremely accurate for wide angle shots...being hard wired will allow your strobes to fire off more times then not when shooting in continuous mode for big animals. Sharks, whales and dolphins are my thing too...so in that case its hard wired only for me. For macro, the camera's internal flash recycling is much less of an issue.

[fotoscubo714 0]

Bo, to really take advantage of the 7d's fast continuous shooting, hard wired strobes are the way to go. A little over a a year ago, Eric did a test with the Canon 1d MKIII and Sea and Sea YS250 strobes. His test is a video (posted here on WP somewhere) showing the YS 250 strobes firing for approximately 6 of the 10 frames...VERY nice for shooting fast action, but would definitely be slowed if using fiber optic ttl.

 

Although TTL itself is not always extremely accurate for wide angle shots...being hard wired will allow your strobes to fire off more times then not when shooting in continuous mode for big animals. Sharks, whales and dolphins are my thing too...so in that case its hard wired only for me. For macro, the camera's internal flash recycling is much less of an issue.

 

Mike..

 

I hear you!

 

I have the need for speed!

 

Whatever it will take................,but I realy was hoping that fiber was going to be the way on this, because of all the reasons I had stated before.

 

I'm a stubborn Dutchman...lol

 

Bo

Edited January 30, 2010 by fotoscubo714