Manufacturer/Dealers: Marketing or just their opinion?

[Drew 0]

This issue has come up over the years and it's always a bit difficult for staff to control as much of it is in that grey area of marketing and facts about a product.

Wetpixel has a policy of no overt commercialism by anyone. We enjoy many of the industry reps' knowledge and their input on their own products and others. Some other manufacturers merely try to use WP forums as a vessel for marketing their wares. I thought it'd be interesting for members to weigh in on this touchy subject

The reason I chose to highlight this issue which was split from the Nauticam 7D thread is that it started a separate discussion which warrants consideration. We at WP gladly announce any new products from any manufacturer, but prefer the forums to have minimal marketing, so it remains a place where reliable data can be had from real customers with real feedback. This is not to dismiss those who represent the brand who are very capable shooters in their own right. We just want to keep it a neutral place for all... well except for the Wetpixel staff... we're packaging Alex Mustard and Mike Veitch hair products soon, as well as the E-Cheng Book of Photography Change and the iDrew: How to be a mean despot in a democracy (or why my mother is the only person who listens to what I say!)

It'll be interesting to see what views are out there regarding this issue, and how much marketing is acceptable to members.

[MikeVeitch 0]

.. well except for the Wetpixel staff... we're packaging Alex Mustard and Mike Veitch hair products soon, as well as the E-Cheng Book of Photography Change and the iDrew: How to be a mean despot in a democracy (or why my mother is the only person who listens to what I say!)

 

 

When i met your mother all she said to you was "yes dear", hate to break it to ya, she's not actually listening..

[John Bantin 101]

While members are most welcome to post links to the manufacturer reviews, I feel it important to emphasize this particular blog entry is from the rep and not an independent source. I sincerely hope Chris does not find this offensive, but as the US rep for Nauticam, the blog seems to be more overview with garnishing rather than a review.

Is it fair we discount the opinion of someone, solely because they represent the brand they are "reviewing?" No, but unfortunately, their links to the brand may afford the hint of hesitation of belief in total objectiveness. As Dr Mustard has noted, objective and independent viewpoints are better considered as reviews. But even those tend to show personal preferences (and thus a different kind of bias) for certain brands since it's usually their own housings they are reviewing, so they are most comfortable with idiosyncrasies that could be of issue for other users. Still, at least the notion of brand bias is much less because they are not tied to the brand as a representative.

 

 

Drew makes a valid point that strikes a chord with me. I work full-time as a diving journalist and regularly review all types of kit. Readers often send in 'reviews' of kit they have bought, including such things as camera housings. We don't use them.

This is because 1) They don't have enough experience of what else is available on the market and 2) they are compromised because they are usually reconfirming their own purchasing decision.

 

I own very little diving kit. (I don't need to buy any after all.) I do own my camera equipment. I use Nikon because of a purchasing decision I made in 1970 when I bought my first F2 outfit. I don't ever offer an opinion that Nikon is best. I might have made a mistake but it's too late to go back 40 years. I have just looked at a picture I took with the 12-24 behind a dome port. I'm glad I sold that lens! I'm not loyal to Nikon, I'm just trapped! In fact I discovered the Tokina 10-17 through Wetpixel (thank you, everyone).

 

By not owning any equipment I am free to be as critical as I feel the need to be and have grown a reputation for this over the last 18 years I've been doing it. I have purchased camera housings, but only after having used them and found something I liked at the time - Seacam, Subal, Aquatica, Nexus, Sea & Sea, Hugyfot. They all work for me. The Hugyfot has Hugycheck. That suits me when it comes to putting an FX camera in a box and taking it under water.

 

We often get sent reviews of equipment of all types by the manufacturer or distributor. We don't use them but they are a good source of hard facts. Is the Nauticam a good housing? I just saw someone climb out of the water with his RED video camera flooded. It was a well-known make of housing. Shit happens. I'm sure the Nauticam housings are as good as any other if they are watertight!

Edited February 18, 2010 by John Bantin

[dhaas 33]

To quote the few Brits I know: "What a bunch of twaddle"

 

The forums are "independent sources of information" ? Hogwash. Every post has one person's view or slant on a piece of kit. Whether they sell it, just bought it or simply like the features of said product.

 

It kind of amuses me that everyone waits impatiently for information on new products, yet when any dealer who possibly sells many choices weighs in on the plusses and minuses it is seen as blatant marketing!

 

Look at Chris parson's photos. Look at Berkeley's or Ryan's (or God forbid some bozo who shoots the lowly plastic Ikelite boxes!).

 

Many have actually USED these choices and have first hand experience to inform potential shooters.

 

So I would have to disagree with the forums being "independent"......

 

More like "This is my experience and choice. Even if I don't know why I bought this brand or why I like it."

 

Just one curmudgeon's opinion!

 

dhaas

[Drew 0]

Well Dave, it's always good to hear opinions but I think you are a bit off. I'm surprised I have to spell it out for you but here goes: Independent in this case would mean the person spent money to buy the product and reviewed it for no other reason than to share their experience. Dealers/reps have a vested interest, so as long as they are somehow going to benefit financially from said sale of product, it's not an independent information source. This has nothing to do with the character of a person but their chosen vocation. I hope this clears up any misunderstanding you have over the definition of independent source.

[TheRealDrew 0]

To quote the few Brits I know: "What a bunch of twaddle"

 

The forums are "independent sources of information" ? Hogwash. Every post has one person's view or slant on a piece of kit. Whether they sell it, just bought it or simply like the features of said product.

 

It kind of amuses me that everyone waits impatiently for information on new products, yet when any dealer who possibly sells many choices weighs in on the plusses and minuses it is seen as blatant marketing!

 

Look at Chris parson's photos. Look at Berkeley's or Ryan's (or God forbid some bozo who shoots the lowly plastic Ikelite boxes!).

 

Many have actually USED these choices and have first hand experience to inform potential shooters.

 

So I would have to disagree with the forums being "independent"......

 

More like "This is my experience and choice. Even if I don't know why I bought this brand or why I like it."

 

Just one curmudgeon's opinion!

 

dhaas

 

Not sure it is a bunch of twaddle (just wanted to say that . Obviously people will bring opinions and bias to what they write. And people also run businesses and website can have ads. And then there are people who do not have the time/money to try out everything on the market, though over the course of years they may have used different brands, and may be trying to justify their purchases.

 

But if you hang out enough on forums, you get a feel for what people write, know, use or their approach. Of course there can be behind the scene John Grisham things happening that non of us our privy to, so some things could be happening. That being said, when some people around here write things my opinion is that they are fairly independent and not trying to to get a dog into a fight, while others who seem to cling to general positions for whatever reason that comes across as having a bit of bias. The same things happen with shops, sometimes you get the feeling you are getting service and sometimes opinions change as the wind blows in a manner which seems to just try to get a sale.

 

With the people who post around here, there are enough who have shot many different cameras and brands of strobes/housings etc. who do seem independent, more so than distributors, manufacturers or shops who may be engaged a bit in marketing and posting things on their own website for products that are not really even out. Many places (shops) I think are fine and do have our interests in mind in providing valuable information and have a long and extensive history of providing many reviews on a wide range of products, so I am not trying to denigrate them or what they bring to the table nor am I saying it is improper for manufacturers to write reviews/user experiences, but when you have x thousand people in a forum like this one for example, you are going to have a good shot of getting some real good information.

[Alex_Mustard 0]

IMO most people who are serious about underwater photography are usually intelligent and successful folks. They can see through marketing twaddle - peddled by those associated with certain brands. Often dealers, distributor, manufacturers can do their products a dis-service by over promotion or blind one-sided reviews "This housing is perfect in every way". The average intelligent person on the forums sees straight through the BS, gets turned off the brand and its representatives, and moves on to a more objectively reasoned post (and possibly product). There is not always a need to argue with someone is posting BS - the average intelligent reader can make up their own mind. And over time regular reads soon learn who to trust or who possibly over embellishes the facts or has their own axe to grind.

 

That said, for less regularly readers the Signature is a valuable tool. Both Chris and MikeL's signatures make it clear that they are financially linked to Nauticam - for instance. As long as people use the Signature to open about their relationships, people can read their posts aware of their bias.

 

Alex

[loftus 42]

I would go as far to say that dealers / manufacturers etc ought to participate, promote advantages etc. They can still be a useful source of information, as folks like Ryan often are.

All that's important in my opinion is FULL DISCLOSURE. Possibly these could be added in as a courtesy when discussing specific products.

Edited February 18, 2010 by loftus

[Viz'art 24]

Here is my personnal take on this, you either pay money or make some money from a product, if you pay money for said product, then i'm all ears and hell you can say whatever you fancy, be it pertinent or not. You have paid for that right but if you don't pay money for it or actually earn money from this product, then stick to factual information (yes there is a button for that and a knob for this, the gear is part number so and so etc.) and leave your manufacturer, store or personal business website do the hype and superlative quote for the rest.

 

As it is mentionned already, forum users are not dumb, they eventually make out what is going on, but for unfrequent visitors or newcomers it might not be that easy. Bottom line is members come here to improve their photographic experience, share experience and generally have some good natured fun, certainly not to line up our pockets as manufacturer, dealers or business individual, so lets all try to be respectful of this fact when we post and I figure in the end the forum members will be more respectful of us when we do post.

 

Cheers

 

Twaddle: I guess it's like a french niaiseries (yep I can see the lot of you on Babelfish right now )

[John Bantin 101]

Here is my personnal take on this, you either pay money or make some money from a product, if you pay money for said product, then i'm all ears and hell you can say whatever you fancy, be it pertinent or not. You have paid for that right but if you don't pay money for it or actually earn money from this product, then stick to factual information (yes there is a button for that and a knob for this, the gear is part number so and so etc.) and leave your manufacturer, store or personal business website do the hype and superlative quote for the rest.

 

As it is mentionned already, forum users are not dumb, they eventually make out what is going on, but for unfrequent visitors or newcomers it might not be that easy. Bottom line is members come here to improve their photographic experience, share experience and generally have some good natured fun, certainly not to line up our pockets as manufacturer, dealers or business individual, so lets all try to be respectful of this fact when we post and I figure in the end the forum members will be more respectful of us when we do post.

 

Cheers

 

Twaddle: I guess it's like a french niaiseries (yep I can see the lot of you on Babelfish right now )

 

 

That's all very well but what happened to my post regarding this?

[TheRealDrew 0]

That's all very well but what happened to my post regarding this?

 

 

It is above in this thread

[John Bantin 101]

It is above in this thread

 

 

This might be surreal but I wrote a lengthy critic's POV on this subject (on the Nauticam thread) and can see it neither here not there!

[Drew 0]

John it's quite possible you hit post at the same time I split the thread and it got lost. It should've told you so though. You sure you hit Add Reply and not Close? If you are going to post on the Nauticam, please keep it in that thread. I split this because it was going so far off topic it detracted the information that is there.

[Viz'art 24]

Well John, if you test equipment for your magazine, then you have your set of guidelines, but I would think that the people who read you are interested by facts and impression based on experience (and credibillity) and that is what they should get, not a disguised promo pack for brand x, there is definitely a demmand for individual to field test equipment in a thorough and non partisan way and someone like you who has been around and is a known figure is sort of a benchmark for readers as they can back track and kind of get a feel on how you do things on the long run (again, the new owner of a housing is not really the most impartial individual to review it). thing is, there is not a lot of blokes like you around, mate. So for the rest of us with lack of impartiallity I suggest neutrallity.

[TheRealDrew 0]

This might be surreal but I wrote a lengthy critic's POV on this subject (on the Nauticam thread) and can see it neither here not there!

 

 

It is surreal, unless I missed your post you are referring to the one that included, I am seeing the following in this thread

 

 

Drew makes a valid point that strikes a chord with me. I work full-time as a diving journalist and regularly review all types of kit. Readers often send in 'reviews' of kit they have bought, including such things as camera housings. We don't use them.

This is because 1) They don't have enough experience of what else is available on the market and 2) they are compromised because they are usually reconfirming their own purchasing decision.

 

I own very little diving kit. (I don't need to buy any after all.) I do own my camera equipment. I use Nikon because of a purchasing decision I made in 1970 when I bought my first F2 outfit. I don't ever offer an opinion that Nikon is best. I might have made a mistake but it's too late to go back 40 years. I have just looked at a picture I took with the 12-24 behind a dome port. I'm glad I sold that lens! I'm not loyal to Nikon, I'm just trapped! In fact I discovered the Tokina 10-17 through Wetpixel (thank you, everyone).

 

By not owning any equipment I am free to be as critical as I feel the need to be and have grown a reputation for this over the last 18 years I've been doing it. I have purchased camera housings, but only after having used them and found something I liked at the time - Seacam, Subal, Aquatica, Nexus, Sea & Sea, Hugyfot. They all work for me. The Hugyfot has Hugycheck. That suits me when it comes to putting an FX camera in a box and taking it under water.

 

We often get sent reviews of equipment of all types by the manufacturer or distributor. We don't use them but they are a good source of hard facts. Is the Nauticam a good housing? I just saw someone climb out of the water with his RED video camera flooded. It was a well-known make of housing. Shit happens. I'm sure the Nauticam housings are as good as any other if they are watertight!

[John Bantin 101]

Well John, if you test equipment for your magazine, then you have your set of guidelines, but I would think that the people who read you are interested by facts and impression based on experience (and credibillity) and that is what they should get, not a disguised promo pack for brand x, there is definitely a demmand for individual to field test equipment in a thorough and non partisan way and someone like you who has been around and is a known figure is sort of a benchmark for readers as they can back track and kind of get a feel on how you do things on the long run (again, the new owner of a housing is not really the most impartial individual to review it). thing is, there is not a lot of blokes like you around, mate. So for the rest of us with lack of impartiallity I suggest neutrallity.

 

You said it!

 

I critique all manner of diving equipment and have been doing so for 18 years. I don't actually own any. If I did I would be compromised. A few people in the past wish I had been and I keep the lawyer's letters out of sentimentality. It takes years to build the trust of your readers and the respect of the suppliers.

 

We often get reviews written by hopeful readers. We don't use them. Why not? Because 1) they don't have enough experience of everything else on the market and 2) they usually like to reinforce their buying decision or 3) they might be a dealer or work for one.

 

I own my own camera gear. I use Nikon because I bought a Nikon F2 outfit when I worked for Penthouse Mag in 1970 and have been trapped with Nikon ever since. I never offer an opinion on Nikon v Canon for example because I really have no other experience of other makes of 35mm/DSLR cameras. I do know that the Nikon 12-24 was awful for sharpness across the frame behind a big dome port and I discovered the Tokina 10-17 here on Wetpixel (thank you everyone).

 

I have bought housings by the following manufacturers: Subal, Seacam, Aquatica, Nexus, Sea & Sea, Hugyfot. They have all been good in their own way and I had a good reason at the time to buy what I did. I have the Hugyfot for my D700 simply because of Hugy Check. I'm too poor to flood my kit. I'm sure the Nauticam housing is great. If I was sent a 'review" by the importer here, we won't be using it.

 

I just witnessed someone climb out of the tank at Pinewood Studios with a very wet RED video camera. Nobody was laughing. I made my excuses and left. The housing was a famous make.

 

When all is said and done, the most important thing is to keep the camera dry!

 

As for manufacturer's press releases, they are very useful but it is important that no-one is confused into thinking they contain impartial opinions.

Edited February 18, 2010 by John Bantin

[Viz'art 24]

Amen

[Cp 29]

Hi all,

 

Just want to point out that I did not post my 7D blurb on Wetpixel. It was posted only on http://nauticamusa.com. A Wetpixel member who is unaffiliated with Nauticam chose to post it here, and he has the right to do so. No one at Nauticam/Nauticam USA asked him to do that.

 

My goal in posting things on Wetpixel is to provide factual information about Nauticam housings, and I appreciate the opportunity to do so.

 

My $0.02 on this new thread.... no matter where you get information about a product, whether it be a housing or a camera or a sports car, you should take it with a grain of salt. Everyone has biases, some more than others of course. I'll make no effort to hide my affiliation with Nauticam, and in doing so I think I give the reader the opportunity to get that grain of salt.

 

Thanks,

 

Chris

[Viz'art 24]

A Wetpixel member who is unaffiliated with Nauticam chose to post it here, and he has the right to do so. No one at Nauticam/Nauticam USA asked him to do that.

 

I am in full agreement, that how it should be done.

[Mike L 0]

I have several views on this myself. Ive learned a lot on this site, as well as others over the years. I am also a participant on several forums in other industries where I have no vested interest, so I can see both sides of the coin here.

 

As a general public user, I doubt anyone viewing the reports/opinions, etc of myself, Jean, Chris, Ryan, etc are unaware we have vested interested in much of what we are reviewing or commenting on. On the side of Chris & Jean, they clearly only represent ONE company each. Are they biased, sure. HOWEVER, they are clearly two of the most well informed people to support the users of this forum with questions, concerns or problems of those manufacturer products. When they give first look photos, samples, and info before a product is released, we all ooohhhh and ahhhhh...when they write a review or a report, I think we all know that it has some bias, so perhaps we absorb 80-85% of it! But much of it is hard, factual information on the specs and features of the product. Neither them, nor I are trying to be secretive about our overall interests. My signature has the h2o site, our new Gates & Nauticam dedicated sites...and if space allowed, Id also post the additional 8 websites we have being built right now that are manufacturer specific for Sea & Sea, Ikelite, L&M, and others...Gates & Nauticam were just our first two to be finished.

 

However, when it comes to reviews from myself, Ryan, or Berkely...we are DEALERS of this gear. That being said, take a look at any of the websites from H2o Photo Pros, Reef Photo or Backscatter...we all sell multiple manufacturers of each item. To me, I don't personally care if you buy any of the housings from the 5 slr manufacturers we carry...in fact there are some that are more expensive than the ones that I tend to favor. We are not about selling a customer the most expensive so that we make the most money. We are about selling a product to a customer that fits their needs, budget, and that we can stand behind for quality and service. Ive sold many brands over the years, some good, some not so good. I will not recommend ANY brand that cannot support us with their quality, service and pricing...Ive learned that the hard way as well over the years.

 

When I review a product, I try to be fair. As you will see in my coming Nauticam 7D report being released tonight (finally finished catching up from my trip), I will praise where deserved, however I will of course post areas that I feel need some work. It is the reviews and comments that allow manufacturers such as Nauticam and Aquatica to LISTEN to all the end users, whether they be Pro or Consumer users on what they want, and more importantly what they feel needs fixing for the next time around.

 

I subscribe to about 15 magazines monthly, from diving, to photo, video, harleys, boats and planes. That being said, NONE of the info in there is without bias...ask anyone who has worked for or with Rodales Scuba Lab...its up to the readers to be subjective.

[Drew 0]

I think the issue becomes a bit more messy is when manufacturers and their dealers add garnishing to their facts. The forums are supposed to be about discussions among like minded people and information for those seeking it, and not just another outlet for promoting products. It is why the WP staff ask the those involved to stick to the facts and not be uber-stentorian about how well it works. As Jean says, leave that to the users who have bought the product and/or independent reviewers. While I agree with Alex that generally, people read through the marketing BS, sometimes it is taken as a proper review by someone inexperienced and/or not reading everything fully etc.

That said, having so many manufacturer reps on WP is an excellent thing as they can provide insight into their products. Some of the biggest names in UW imagery participate here to field questions about their products, and they've always been factual and helpful. That can only benefit members who are their customers and their sales.

[John Bantin 101]

It's not so bad here. At least nobody attacks you for spending a few bob on kit - not like some British diving forums!

[Paul Kay 62]

It also works both ways. I will not comment on some equipment despite my misgivings on some of it (based on my or friend's experience) because as a supplier of one product I feel that it would be unacceptable to do so - even if the information is potentially important and something that people should be aware of. As has been said before, keeping things factual is a good way to be and wetpixel is an excellent way to disseminate information about a product that I might be involved with, provided that is that its useful information or answering a query, and not simply promotional.

[RedSeaDiver 0]

For factual information such as "it won't work with that dome port because..." and "we will be shipping the first batch of the XXX housing on Monday" I listen to guys like Jean and Chris. For reviews of gear I listen to guys like Berkely - a) because he has the experience to know what he is talking about and has seen plenty of housings, and b) he doesn't have to talk up a particular housing because he will have several different brands of housing for sale to fit any particular camera model.

[JackConnick 76]

I agree with Alex and others, disclosure is the key.

 

I too, am a dealer for many of these lines. I bought with my own $$ a Nauticam D300 rig, was provided with a prototype by Ryan as the d300s wasn't finished, and took it to Mexico for 8 days of hard shooting offshore. Did I have problems - yes, did I get some great shots - yes. All was disclosed in my very brief user review on the another Nikon/Nauticam thread - and it was one of the first posted about blue water shooting with the rig.

 

I think if you wait for users/unbiased sources to post reviews they aren't going to happen. When new lines and rigs come out the dealers are the only real ones to have actual knowledge of them. The 10Bar GF-1 and LX3 threads are a case in point. Many users were asking for a US dealer. I went to DEMA, looked over the gear, asked the questions the users were asking as well as my own. After relaying the information we did some initial buys and now I've continued them. Everyone is very happy to have the info posted here - and the problems and questions are relayed to the manufacturers for improvement.

 

I think this is exactly what the forum is all about. I strongly feel that if full disclosure is made, then we are all adult enough to filter what we want.

 

Jack

Edited February 19, 2010 by JackConnick