How Long Is Too Long?

[JimSwims 31]

Hi Folks,

last year I had two images published by a couple of well known Dive Mags that are under the same publishing house. I am very easy going by nature

and was happy to wait for payment which I was told would happen in a few months in both instances. As of this date both Magazines have yet to pay. The

first image was invoiced in July 2009 and the second invoiced in November 2009. I have seen posts on this forum of others experiencing delays in payment from

the same publications but think I have set a new record. I sent emails last week to my original contacts from those publications and only one has deemed to

reply and assure me my issue would be passed on to the relevant department. I am a very patient man but even my patience has a limit.

 

Do I name and shame these Magazines? Warn others of the potential delays to payments? Begin legal action asking for payment and interest on it?

 

Very shabby treatment from these publications to one of their contributors and I even get regular emails asking me to submit more images

I do know I am very far down the underwater food chain but a 10 month delay in payment?

 

 

 

Cheers,

Jim.

[JimSwims 31]

I notice they expect prompt payment themselves

 

 

"Outstanding Invoices payment must be made within 30 days from date of invoice. A penalty charge of 2% per month will be made on outstanding invoices."

 

 

Taken from their rates listing.

 

 

 

 

Jim.

[blueline 3]

I notice they expect prompt payment themselves

 

 

"Outstanding Invoices payment must be made within 30 days from date of invoice. A penalty charge of 2% per month will be made on outstanding invoices."

 

 

Taken from their rates listing.

 

 

 

 

Jim.

 

I would name the magazines and email them. Maybe they can come to their senses. I agree, they are quick to assess penalties if they don't receive payments on time, but when it comes to paying out, they play a different game.

 

Btw, saw your flickr galleries...some real nice images.

 

Dimitri

[Gudge 58]

If you're talking about Asian Diver (I got one image published in the same issue as one of yours), they owe me payment for two images published last year. I've sent several emails to my contact their and their accounts department. Neither have responded to my last two emails. Needless to say, I now ignore all the invitations from Asian Diver to submit images to their upcoming issues.

[petern 5]

If you're talking about Asian Diver (I got one image published in the same issue as one of yours), they owe me payment for two images published last year. I've sent several emails to my contact their and their accounts department. Neither have responded to my last two emails. Needless to say, I now ignore all the invitations from Asian Diver to submit images to their upcoming issues.

And let face it with what magazines actually pay for images it wouldnt break their bank, this is not the first time I have heard this story.

[JimSwims 31]

I would name the magazines and email them. Maybe they can come to their senses. I agree, they are quick to assess penalties if they don't receive payments on time, but when it comes to paying out, they play a different game.

 

Btw, saw your flickr galleries...some real nice images.

 

Dimitri

Thanks Dimitri. Yes the boot is firmly on the other foot when the situation is reversed.

 

 

 

 

If you're talking about Asian Diver (I got one image published in the same issue as one of yours), they owe me payment for two images published last year. I've sent several emails to my contact their and their accounts department. Neither have responded to my last two emails. Needless to say, I now ignore all the invitations from Asian Diver to submit images to their upcoming issues.

Yes the one and the same mate. I can fortunately tell you that in my case the Finance dept of Asian Diver contacted me today and has advised I'll have payment by the end of the month. This was after sending

a second email to all the heads of department I could find addresses to after the first reminder last week went ignored. I'll send you the addresses I used and I hope you get some resolution too.

 

 

 

 

 

And let face it with what magazines actually pay for images it wouldnt break their bank, this is not the first time I have heard this story.

Not wrong Peter contributors at my level receive a pittance for images to such publishers. I'm certainly under no illusion though as to where I stand in the world of UW Imaging but I obviously value my images more than they

do. Certainly no way to go about generating good will and a return of co-operation and submission, first and last time for me submitting to that mag. Any way submitting to magazines has never been my motivation to spend thousands of dollars on diving for treasures

 

 

 

Cheers,

Jim.

Edited May 21, 2010 by JimSwims

[rodriguezfelix 0]

I have an issue with another Asian magazine, a major one also. They published one of my images on a full page, and I had been expecting payment over several months. In my case they change the editor, which was my main contact with the magazine and I lost track of the payment issue, after a while I start sending emails over all contacts on their website and I receive several emails from the editor working through the problem. He was very professional and apologizes to me for the huge delay, kudos to him.

 

Accounting dept. also promise payment by the end of the month, let´s hope they do.

 

Just my 2 cents.

[JimSwims 31]

Hi Rodriguez,

yes that would be the other mag I submitted to that still hasn't let me know what is happening regarding my ten month overdue payment. I wonder if a representative of both SDAA and Asian Diver would like

to help explain to those of us awaiting payment and other potential contributors why there are such inordinate delays to payments??? I am unhappy with this and now I have set my mind to it am growing more and more so.

How many others in the Wetpixel community are there that are also currently experiencing lengthy delays in payment or have done so in the past?

 

 

Jim.

[decosnapper 34]

How many others in the Wetpixel community are there that are also currently experiencing lengthy delays in payment or have done so in the past?

Jim.

 

I have. Credit control and client selection is now two key factors in how I do business and who I choose to deal with. I keep a close eye on outstanding invoices and start chasing for payment the moment it falls due. If the client is a regular late payer then I take a long hard look at what material they are being offered, and in some instances have declined to supply further material. I should add that I am under no illusion that this one-man stance goes unnoticed by the rest of the planet.

 

All the time people don't chase or give up the suppliers become a form of interest free credit and publishers will squeeze any so-called "overhead" to the extreme in the pursuit of profit and shareholder rewards. They are in it for the money. Many underwater photographers are in it for the love of the art. These two aspects are generally diametrically opposed.

 

As long as people continue to supply material and never chase for payment then the practice of late payment will remain with us.

 

I have often wondered just how much underwater photographers subsidize the publishing world.....I think the number would be very very large indeed.

Edited May 21, 2010 by decosnapper

[JimSwims 31]

I have. Credit control and client selection is now two key factors in how I do business and who I choose to deal with. I keep a close eye on outstanding invoices and start chasing for payment the moment it falls due. If the client is a regular late payer then I take a long hard look at what material they are being offered, and in some instances have declined to supply further material. I should add that I am under no illusion that this one-man stance goes unnoticed by the rest of the planet.

 

All the time people don't chase or give up the suppliers become a form of interest free credit and publishers will squeeze any so-called "overhead" to the extreme in the pursuit of profit and shareholder rewards. They are in it for the money. Many underwater photographers are in it for the love of the art. These two aspects are generally diametrically opposed.

 

As long as people continue to supply material and never chase for payment then the practice of late payment will remain with us.

 

I have often wondered just how much underwater photographers subsidize the publishing world.....I think the number would be very very large indeed.

 

Simon you are so right about it being a collective issue and not one that will change from the stance or efforts of one. It requires all photographers to value their work and hold the management of publishers, not their

accounts dept's, accountable. This experience has sure been a wake up for me as these two images were my first to be published in Magazines. Sure I was chuffed at getting some exposure in print but I always expected

receiving payment. I was guilty of sitting on my hands though once the payments had gone past being 3 months due, which is a reasonable amount of time to expect accounts to be finalized. Magazines like these two

publications need to look after all their contributors not just the in-house ones. After all we all know the amount offered for images pales in comparison to the advertising revenue they help to generate.

 

I am happy to report though that in my case I have been assured of payment from both magazines by end of month. My recent persistent emails and public venting have finally spurred some action.

 

We must all do our part to ensure that this does not persist as a frequent practice and I hope my story has served as a warning to both contributors and publishers alike. I may not be a professional but have gone to

considerable time, effort and expense to garner my images and so put great value to them. To be treated in this way by a publisher simply makes me want to avoid that publisher and warn everyone I know about

how that publisher operates. Surely it is a false economy to think there are plenty of photographic fish in the sea.

 

 

 

 

Cheers,

Jim.

 

PS: I will post again once I have actually received the payments..........

Edited May 22, 2010 by JimSwims

[AengusM 0]

Hi Jim,

 

I've had grief with one of the named magasines also re slow payment and I know that has been the case for several years for many people.

 

Indeed I know of at least 2 people who have never been paid and just gave up on them (that was under the previous owners).

 

I had a pic with SDAA last year but did it on the basis of a contra, couple of years subscription for the pic, I don't know why I bothered, SDAA has definitely gone down hill, although not as bad as the Australian Scuba Diver magasine, yet.

 

Aengus

Edited May 22, 2010 by AengusM

[wobby 7]

Hi Jim,

 

Hope you have better luck that me, I still haven't been paid for a feature article with the same magazine that apeared in the Oct/Nov issue 2008! Several emails have been exchanged before and after it changed ownership I don't like my chances at all.

 

Regards

 

Nigel

[rodriguezfelix 0]

I just wrote SDAA Editor and staff. I think they have to take a look on this post, and get the feedback that we are leaving here. Also I think they must be more active around this forum.

 

Let´s hope they want to be involve.

[John Bantin 101]

A lot of this stems from the fact that too many amateurs are desperate to get published and we are now going through an era when creative people are no longer valued.

 

Even in the 'eighties, I used to say that a photograph was only worth something until it existed. I made my money from providing photographs that did not exist. My job was to make them exist - for big money. I got my fingers burnt when I provided pictures on spec to an advertising agency for a product from Coca Cola no less. Two years later they used them and asserted I had provided them and the full rights to use them for my expenses only!

 

As for magazines and newspapers, a couple of years ago I sued the British Daily Express for non-payment. In the witness box under cross examination the Editor asserted that it was NOT NORMAL for the Daily Express to pay for the pictures they published! (I won the case.) Even recently, last year I supplied pictures to a magazine edited by the niece of a friend and never got paid. It happens to us all. Get a contract first.

Edited May 24, 2010 by John Bantin

[petern 5]

We as photographers put a lot of faith and honesty in publishing houses when we send images for them to use. Non payment is one thing, the other in this digital age is that your image can be kept in their system and used at a later date. This has happen to me and when questioned the paper that had used them said that they owned the image!!

So it is important that a contract between you and the publisher is co-signed indicating single use rights only.

[photovan 0]

A lot of this stems from the fact that too many amateurs are desperate to get published and we are now going through an era when creative people are no longer valued.

 

Even in the 'eighties, I used to say that a photograph was only worth something until it existed. I made my money from providing photographs that did not exist. My job was to make them exist - for big money. I got my fingers burnt when I provided pictures on spec to an advertising agency for a product from Coca Cola no less. Two years later they used them and asserted I had provided them and the full rights to use them for my expenses only!

 

As for magazines and newspapers, a couple of years ago I sued the British Daily Express for non-payment. In the witness box under cross examination the Editor asserted that it was NOT NORMAL for the Daily Express to pay for the pictures they published! (I won the case.) Even recently, last year I supplied pictures to a magazine edited by the niece of a friend and never got paid. It happens to us all. Get a contract first.

 

I had *another* call a few days ago, someone wanting use an image, and there offer included the glory of being published, PLUS a photo credit. WOW!

So I say "no thanks" knowing for sure they will get an alternate image for free from somewhere, without too much trouble. So be it.

 

There are still decent stock sales around, for reputable publishers, quality mags and clients needing exclusivity, but they too are getting fewer and fewer. At the generalist magazine end of the market, as we see from this thread, are a school of photo users that are either struggling in today's market or enjoying increased profits via those yearning to be published.

 

Funny, I have a price list that I work from for my general, day-to-day stock sales. I made that list in about 1992 I think. And it is still my current list, no changes as clients have become less willing to pay the real price over time. So it seems the law of photo-economics is this :

 

general stock photo value = inverse of inflation

 

and so if you apply that over enough years, you get this fact: general stock photo value = nothing, zero, zippo

[John Bantin 101]

We as photographers put a lot of faith and honesty in publishing houses when we send images for them to use. Non payment is one thing, the other in this digital age is that your image can be kept in their system and used at a later date. This has happen to me and when questioned the paper that had used them said that they owned the image!!

So it is important that a contract between you and the publisher is co-signed indicating single use rights only.

 

 

Years ago Conde Naste published an uncommissioned photograph of mine. They had got it from a dive-store owner who had found some trannies in a drawer of a shop he'd bought. The trannies had been supplied by me to the previous owner of the store who'd 'lost' them. Naturally, the new owner thought he owned everything in the store that he'd bought. A very patient judge explained that he didn't own the rights to the images and that they were owned by the author. Conde Nast had to pay up - but it was a painful process.

 

Thanks to the digital age, everyone now thinks they own everything that comes through on the Internet. Even my writing has been cut & pasted by naive new authors in articles published in other magazines and people think that creative work, whether it be music, words or pictures, is there for the taking. The moment your work is published on-line you are in danger of losing effective ownership of it.

[John Bantin 101]

Oh oops! We are just as guilty here at Diver Mag. My friend Emry sent me a picture of a thresher shark that he was rather proud of. I said the magazine might be able to use it if he wrote a story around it - but he never got round to it.

 

A long time later, I was at Malapascua in the Philippines. I produced an eight-page feature about the trip in an outrigger canoe. I insisted that the art editor used Emry's picture rather than one of mine of a thresher, which we still had and which they did - but without a credit. Writers still get a credit on the page and in their bank accounts. Young art directors think digital pictures are just found in computers!

 

Things were different when film had to be supplied and returned after use.

Edited May 26, 2010 by John Bantin

[bvanant 189]

Years ago Conde Naste published an uncommissioned photograph of mine. They had got it from a dive-store owner who had found some trannies in a drawer of a shop he'd bought. The trannies had been supplied by me to the previous owner of the store who'd 'lost' them. Naturally, the new owner thought he owned everything in the store that he'd bought. A very patient judge explained that he didn't own the rights to the images and that they were owned by the author. Conde Nast had to pay up - but it was a painful process.

 

Thanks to the digital age, everyone now thinks they own everything that comes through on the Internet. Even my writing has been cut & pasted by naive new authors in articles published in other magazines and people think that creative work, whether it be music, words or pictures, is there for the taking. The moment your work is published on-line you are in danger of losing effective ownership of it.

A question for John and others who are published extensively. I think I understand the difference between plagiarism and appropriate attribution. I also understand that copying a bunch of text for a published article is a no-no. What do you feel about a cut and paste of a sentence from a review with proper attribution. Like

as mentioned by John Bantin "blah blah blah"

Is that OK or should I just point the reader to your article.

Bill

[John Bantin 101]

A question for John and others who are published extensively. I think I understand the difference between plagiarism and appropriate attribution. I also understand that copying a bunch of text for a published article is a no-no. What do you feel about a cut and paste of a sentence from a review with proper attribution. Like

as mentioned by John Bantin "blah blah blah"

Is that OK or should I just point the reader to your article.

Bill

Nobody minds being quoted as in attributable text. What we don't like is to read something that sounds very familiar only to realise later that we wrote it!

 

If I Google my name, I find masses of material of mine that has been taken from its original source and translated into many different languages - usually Eastern European or Chinese. I might not get paid but at least it's attributed, which is how it comes up on the search. How much stuff is not, I wonder?

 

It's also quite strange to find myself reviewing a book that is well written but know that the authors started out on their careers by cut & pasting my stuff!

 

I know of one successful professional who started off by showing the work of a now venerated British film-maker/underwater photographer as his own. No names, no pack drill but older Brits might know who I mean.

Edited May 27, 2010 by John Bantin

[bvanant 189]

Nobody minds being quoted as in attributable text. What we don't like is to read something that sounds very familiar only to realise later that we wrote it!

 

If I Google my name, I find masses of material of mine that has been taken from its original source and translated into many different languages - usually Eastern European or Chinese. I might not get paid but at least it's attributed, which is how it comes up on the search. How much stuff is not, I wonder?

 

It's also quite strange to find myself reviewing a book that is well written but know that the authors started out on their careers by cut & pasting my stuff!

 

I know of one successful professional who started off by showing the work of a now venerated British film-maker/underwater photographer as his own. No names, no pack drill but older Brits might know who I mean.

I was assuming that is what you would say but wanted to make sure. When you write scientific papers you often do both, a direct quote with an attribution and then a hard reference to a published work. But beware the unverifiable personal communication.

 

thanks

Bill

[Tjsnapper 0]

My other half once waited nearly 4 years for payment, for a set of photos commissioned for a magazine. Emails were sent and promises of payment came and deadlines went etc etc. As it was "only £350" (her words not mine), and she was no longer taking photos, she said it was not worth chasing it and had written it off. I got on the case though and after a couple of months of chasing and a threat of legal action the money finally arrived in her account. It is a shame that it sometimes has to come to the threat of legal action but clearly some magazines hope you will "go away" if you leave it long enough especially if you are a young girl!!

 

To get back to the original point though, I am finding more an more that, unless you know the individuals involved in the magazines, you need some sort of written contract sorted before you send images.

[John Bantin 101]

To get back to the original point though, I am finding more an more that, unless you know the individuals involved in the magazines, you need some sort of written contract sorted before you send images.

 

You've hit the nail on the head. I used to undertake assignments often costing more than £30,000 with the nod on the telephone and the paperwork to follow later - but I knew who I was dealing with and they knew me. A magazine editor that approaches you out of the blue will be able to approach someone else tomorrow.

[decosnapper 34]

To get back to the original point though, I am finding more an more that, unless you know the individuals involved in the magazines, you need some sort of written contract sorted before you send images.

 

The value of paperwork up front is only has "value" when things - like non-payment - go wrong......but when (not if) things do go wrong the benefits of a paper audit trail is not to be underestimated.

[JimSwims 31]

Well after being promised that I'd receive my belated payment by the End Of May, behold it's now June and no payment and no explanation

 

 

How can a respected publication use such business practices with its contributors. This can only generate bad publicity and bad Karma.

 

 

Certainly not going to let this one go until I receive satisfaction and I have referred this thread to other contributors.

 

I have an issue with another Asian magazine, a major one also. They published one of my images on a full page, and I had been expecting payment over several months. In my case they change the editor, which was my main contact with the magazine and I lost track of the payment issue, after a while I start sending emails over all contacts on their website and I receive several emails from the editor working through the problem. He was very professional and apologizes to me for the huge delay, kudos to him.

 

Accounting dept. also promise payment by the end of the month, let´s hope they do.

 

Just my 2 cents.

 

Rodriguez I hope at least you received the promised payment?

 

 

 

NOT HAPPY JOHN!

 

 

 

Cheers,

Jim