DS-50 vs DS-125 vs YS90

[PauP 0]

Coverage-wise; the graphic test that Herb Ko conducted proves their performance too. Using the units extensively in Lembeh REALLY sold them for me, great colour and coverage with accurate TTL and manual adjustments.

http://www.digitaldiver.net/lib_docs/strobe_shootout.html

 

The surface comparisons are misleading.

 

The Z220 examples show it to have a narrow hotspot/area. If I was looking to buy W/A strobes this would certainly put me off.

 

The D180 and the YS90 show a more even coverage but less power, the z220 at half power still shows "Hot". I guess it should be used with a diffuser?

 

A powerful flash has a greater working distance which will help with light coverage.

 

PauP

[craig 0]

It is, however, the most commonly flooded device among my group. I can count about 12-16 Ike 50's within "my group" and 3, maybe 4, floods in the last few years. Dismissing all those as "customer carelessness" is a good way to never make them better. A good design minimizes failures even in the event of customer carelessness. Gazzer said "Ikelites are simple, robust and very difficult to mess up." In the case of the 50 I don't agree.

 

Since Gazzer made particular mention of how good the battery compartments are I thought it important to mention that the "flimsy" Inon has a superior battery compartment arrangement. Virtually impossible to flood, isolated compartment, and separated seal and electrical parts. Again, look at the two and judge for yourself. Be sure to look inside at the bulletproof embedded contacts. The Inon strobe is simply a beautiful piece.

 

Criticising Ike strobes is not my intention. Correcting the charactization of Inon's as flimsy is.

[JohnJohnsonIII 0]

I thank everybody for their inputs on the strobes mentioned. I am glad the Inons were brought up as well. I have looked at the Inon 180 in the past(was unaware there was a 220 model), but hadn't considered them until hearing about craig's success with them. And congrats on your Inon photographer of the month, craig! Excellent job! I didn't chime in on the other thread, but thought I would take the time now to say waytago!

I have heard good things about all the strobes mentioned. I have a friend who is sponsored by Sea And Sea and he loves the YS-90s. Craig swears by the Inon's and all the magazines I read in Japan talk Inon. Ikelite has a tremendous reputation for both quality and customer service. The people I talk to here in Hawaii love Ikelite and the number of Ikelites I saw on my last dive was rather stunning.

I would love to see a pool comparison of these strobes. I really would. I had pretty much decided on the Ikelite DS-125 until I started hearing more and more on the Inons. The fact that I freedive more than SCUBA has me thinking about the Inon just in terms of bulk. I'm rather undecided. I wish there was a consumer reports article available somewhere so I could weigh them against each other. But thanks to all you guys for your help. I don't want to stir up any hard feelings over this. I know people can be fiercely loyal to their brands. And that's a good thing. But I don't want anybody getting their feelings hurt over my inquiries. Thanks again!

 

--John

[craig 0]

The surface comparisons are misleading.

 

The Z220 examples show it to have a narrow hotspot/area. If I was looking to buy W/A strobes this would certainly put me off.

 

The D180 and the YS90 show a more even coverage but less power, the z220 at half power still shows "Hot". I guess it should be used with a diffuser?

 

A powerful flash has a greater working distance which will help with light coverage.

 

PauP

Since the Z220 and D180 are identical except for power supply capacity, I'd be suspicious of any suggested coverage differences.

 

The problem with the test mentioned is that it was done above water. Strobes with curved front ports (Inon included) will yield a different pattern and any proper test should be done in the intended environment.

 

On the list for us at WP is an objective strobe test that provides standardized measurements of strobes taken underwater. That includes real underwater power measurements as well as pattern images. Any input to that process would be welcome.

[Cybergoldfish 1]

I'll post some WA shots during the next week or so Paul, I'll expect a gasp from even you . Heres a mediocre shot taken with the 20mm at 12" using manual and no defusers, can't see too many hot spots

Water is a great defuser in itself, I'll only use them in soup; ask Dave.

 

Picture put in photo Critique

[PauP 0]

I cant see anyfink!

[Ryan 48]

To further muddy the waters,

 

I believe that a major consideration in strobe selection for wide angle photographers should be color temperature.

 

The Ikelite DS-125, and the older SS-200, are my wide angle strobes of choice because they provide the most pleasing out of the camera images (to my eye) available. The reds and oranges have a "pop" that requires extensive color temp manipulation in Camera Raw to achieve from strobes with higher color temps (ie the Inon Z-220, which I've shot extensively). Often, this color temp adjustment ruins the background exposure by "yellowing" the blues, making it impossible, and forcing me to accept less than ideal foreground saturation.

 

Incidentally, this is not the color temp I desire for macro. The Z-220 is a very interesting Macro strobe, because of the shadow softening affects the T-Shaped tubes produce.

 

In using the Z-220, I've been very happy with its size, coverage, and intensity. It is a great strobe. I feel that the recycle time is understated (ie I'm skeptical that it is 80% when the ready light comes back on). It just isn't the strobe I want for wide angle photography, even though it may satisfy the needs of most.

 

The DS-125 recycles faster. Period. Since I have to put -1/2 stop diffusers on the Z-220 to approach the color temp I want, even if its intensity was equal to the DS-125 to start with, it effectively would be less powerful. The strobe has been maligned, but I'll attribute many of the problems you hear about to poor quality control. Once working units get in the field, they prove very reliable.

 

I hate name dropping, but Craig suggested to me in another thread on another board that professional use was an important judge of quality, so I'll play the card. So, since Marty S, Norbert Wu, Jim Watt, David Fleetham, Steven Frink, Mauricio Handler, etc, etc. (sorry if I left anybody out, it is not an insult to your work) use Ikelite strobes to earn an income, I'm confident in their durability and quality.

 

Moreover, the wide angle images that most often impress me on these sites tend to come from Ikelite strobes and artists such as Eric, James, Paul Osmond, Karl Dietz, Jay Treat, Don Hughes, David Haas, George Vincent, etc, etc.

 

[edited because I need to install IESpell on this computer]

[Gazzer 0]

mmmmm I certainly have started a debate, have I not?

 

Craig

 

"Your uninformed bashing on Inon"

 

Well sir all I did was state that, in my opinion, Ikelite strobes are more robustly constructed than other strobes such as Inon. OK I said it in another way, by calling Inon flimsy was maybe not the correct choice of words, actualy the comment was more directed at Epoque then the Inon strobes. Anyway that is my opinion, I would hardly call it bashing! Uniformed, you jump to many conclusions on that one! Honestly, no I have never dived with Inon strobes but as I said I have had a close look at them. I have owned and dived with strobes from Ikelite, Epoque, Nikon, Sea & Sea, Isota. Not one or two dives either, 100's

 

"I'll let the o-ring specialists that exist here address the problem in greater detail, but the square door and the compression o-ring design make it difficult to get even pressure on the seal"

 

If the door and sealing surface were not flat then sure, getting a seal would be an issue. If the surface is flat (strobe manuafctured properly!) then you will get a seal and very easily. It is true that a captured 'O' ring seal is, in theory, better but in systems where the seal is being continually broken and re-made (like strobe battery compartments) it is not the only or best solution! Because the captured 'O' ring has to be pressed into a chamber the 'O' ring must be greased to ensure smooth passage. Again, in theory, this is not an issue if done properly but as you and I know many divers tend to put way to much grease on the rings. Which brings us to the next issue, the introduction of dirt, salt, hair etc. The flat compression type seal is very easy to keep clean. The sealing surfaces are easy to see and any debris removed. The fact that no grease has to be used means the 'O' ring does not act as a magnet for dirt. The captured 'O' rings sealing surfaces are down inside a chamber, making them more difficult to see and therefore more difficult to check. The grease you must apply to this type of seal ring ads to the maintainnce and makes it all the more likely that and dirt in the sealing chamber is dragged along with the 'O' ring when it is inserted. "A captured o-ring is better and is self-cleaning"...... you have got to be joking!!!! how long have you been diving with cameras? I hope you are well insured!

 

"Longevity in a product is not automatically a testament to its quality" Well I can't think what else would be! Ike has kindly pointed out that the design of the DS50 harks back 25 years! 25 years and you think the battery compartment is no good! I would like to see the condition of an Inon strobe after that many years and hundreds of dives. Especially since you consider the Inon 'O' rings self cleaning As an excersise maybe Ike could find out just how old my MV50 is. The serial #17770?

[craig 0]

OK. You called Inon strobes flimsy. Anyone who would say that is uninformed. You've admitted that you haven't used one. Inon strobes are also sturdier looking than the other strobes in question. Take another look.

 

When you tension a door made like the 50's it's easy for it to become "non-flat". That's the problem. Also, captured o-rings aren't what you think they are. Look again at the Inon strobe seal. It's o-ring is self-cleaning and even, predicable pressure is provided over its entire surface by design. That's no joke. About once every 10 changes or so I need to grease it, though. That's tough. There is no o-ring easier to see or clean than Inon's.

 

Longevity refers to how long a product has been on the market. That was your original point, and I don't agree it's a good measure of quality. Old Spice has been sold longer than I've been alive but that doesn't make it quality cologne. Number of units sold isn't a good measure, either. McDonalds has sold a lot of Big Macs but that doesn't make them fine dining. You would think in 25 years that battery door could be made bulletproof.

 

Once again you suggest the Inon is af poor quality by insinuating that it won't hold up under years of service and hundreds of dives. The Inon is an absolute rock compared to a 50 or 125. The reason it has no track record is because it's been Japanese market only until recently. There is absolutely no comparison. Inon should offer a tradeup program for Ike and S&S strobes. Trouble is, I doubt their production volume could handle the strain.

[craig 0]

To further muddy the waters,

 

I believe that a major consideration in strobe selection for wide angle photographers should be color temperature.

 

The Ikelite DS-125, and the older SS-200, are my wide angle strobes of choice because they provide the most pleasing out of the camera images (to my eye) available.  The reds and oranges have a "pop" that requires extensive color temp manipulation in Camera Raw to achieve from strobes with higher color temps (ie the Inon Z-220, which I've shot extensively).  Often, this color temp adjustment ruins the background exposure by "yellowing" the blues, making it impossible, and forcing me to accept less than ideal foreground saturation.

 

Incidentally, this is not the color temp I desire for macro.  The Z-220 is a very interesting Macro strobe, because of the shadow softening affects the T-Shaped tubes produce.

 

In using the Z-220, I've been very happy with its size, coverage, and intensity.  It is a great strobe.  I feel that the recycle time is understated (ie I'm skeptical that it is 80% when the ready light comes back on).  It just isn't the strobe I want for wide angle photography, even though it may satisfy the needs of most.

 

The DS-125 recycles faster.  Period.  Since I have to put -1/2 stop diffusers on the Z-220 to approach the color temp I want, even if its intensity was equal to the DS-125 to start with, it effectively would be less powerful.  The strobe has been maligned, but I'll attribute many of the problems you hear about to poor quality control.  Once working units get in the field, they prove very reliable.

 

I hate name dropping, but Craig suggested to me in another thread on another board that professional use was an important judge of quality, so I'll play the card.  So, since Marty S, Norbert Wu, Jim Watt, David Fleetham, Steven Frink, Mauricio Handler, etc, etc. (sorry if I left anybody out, it is not an insult to your work) use Ikelite strobes to earn an income, I'm confident in their durability and quality. 

 

Moreover, the wide angle images that most often impress me on these sites tend to come from Ikelite strobes and artists such as Eric, James, Paul Osmond, Karl Dietz, Jay Treat, Don Hughes, David Haas, George Vincent, etc, etc.

 

[edited because I need to install IESpell on this computer]

Having not used a strobe with warmer color temps, I can't comment on experience. I would suspect, though, that they'd be fine for digital macro since the color temp of the exposure is more easily adjusted. With film the warm strobes would definitely be an issue.

 

Curiously, other people (especially video) seem to place special importance to cold light with wide angle feeling it matches ambient better. I'm not among them. In any event, the color rendering of all strobes should be uniformly good and a warmer strobe for wide angle is an understandable preference. Warmer light has less penetrating power since a greater portion of the lumen output is produced in the portion of the spectrum that is absorbed more quickly by the water. That is also an argument I don't value but it is true. Ultimately the difference between warm and cold strobes is only 35-50 mireds or about 12-18 inches of subject distance in blue water. There are many issues I consider more important than this.

 

Inon strobes very easily accomodate Lee filter holders. With that, you can warm the strobes or match them to lens filtering for a variety of effects. To convert the Inon from 5500K to 4700K, you use an 81C filter. This filter costs you 1/3 stop. I wouldn't consider such a mild filter, though.

 

I also agree that the recycle time is better than published. I suspect that's due to improvements in battery performance. I estimate a recycle time of about 2.5 seconds. Since I use a D100, I'm almost always around -2 so recycles are virtually instant. DS125 recycles are definitely faster but there's the battery and charger issue.

 

I think what the pros use is a reflection of what they value. I don't think it's a good judge of quality, though pros won't tolerate products that always fail. Pros have large inventories of equipment that cost big money. They want it all to interchange well and be from as few vendors as possible for support and service reasons. Replacing equipment needs to be financially justifiable. You won't see mass adoption of any new product be entrenched pros until they see good business reasons to do it.

 

I doubt a pro will tell you he uses Ike strobes because they never flood. They way pros work, they expect everything to flood. Field repair is the priority. Pros and amateurs are very different in their attitudes toward gear. You won't hear many pros endorsing Inon, either. Inon is too new to their market and adoption rate is slow. Many pros like big strobes to go with their slow films. None of that implies Inon has poor quality. Given time, you'll see pros using Inon's. I know there are pros found of them.

[PauP 0]

The Z-220 is a very interesting Macro strobe, because of the shadow softening affects the T-Shaped tubes produce.

Ryan,

 

"Softening"?.....You are joking right?

 

Two strobes soften shadows. Not T-strobes?

 

PauP

[Gazzer 0]

OK. You called Inon strobes flimsy. Anyone who would say that is uninformed. You've admitted that you haven't used one. Inon strobes are also sturdier looking than the other strobes in question. Take another look.

 

When you tension a door made like the 50's it's easy for it to become "non-flat". That's the problem. Also, captured o-rings aren't what you think they are. Look again at the Inon strobe seal. It's o-ring is self-cleaning and even, predicable pressure is provided over its entire surface by design. That's no joke. About once every 10 changes or so I need to grease it, though. That's tough. There is no o-ring easier to see or clean than Inon's.

 

Longevity refers to how long a product has been on the market. That was your original point, and I don't agree it's a good measure of quality. Old Spice has been sold longer than I've been alive but that doesn't make it quality cologne. Number of units sold isn't a good measure, either. McDonalds has sold a lot of Big Macs but that doesn't make them fine dining. You would think in 25 years that battery door could be made bulletproof.

 

Once again you suggest the Inon is af poor quality by insinuating that it won't hold up under years of service and hundreds of dives. The Inon is an absolute rock compared to a 50 or 125. The reason it has no track record is because it's been Japanese market only until recently. There is absolutely no comparison. Inon should offer a tradeup program for Ike and S&S strobes. Trouble is, I doubt their production volume could handle the strain.

As I say 'flimsy was maybe the wrong choice of words. Maybe "less durable" would have been a better statement! No I have not used an Inon strobe but in your reply to Ryan above you imply that you have never used an Ikelite strobe either? The point is this; the test for durability in a diving strobe can only come through years and years of use. It handles dives, it handles being flung in dive bags and transported half way around the world, it survives the rock and roll of dive boats, it survives being left out in the full sun. Since Inon strobes are so new to the 'outside market' and new to you yourself, it becomes a bit of a mute point you declaring that Inon strobes are the as durable as Ike's products........only time will tell!

 

I had to smile at your comparison with Old Spice...... ah I still remember my old father splashing it on in the morning I would however like to point out that comparing a cheap after shave and cheap fast food with a very expensive underwater strobe a bit daft! If the DS50 was as bad as you say it is it would not be around after 25 years, that's a fact!

 

And just to stir up a hornets nest. What about product support. I doubt you will get the same level of support from any of the Japanese or big name strobe/housing producers that you would get from Ikelite. I could just imagine me on the phone to some guy in Japan trying to explain that I flooded my strobe first time out...... do you think I would get anywhere. To be frank Ikelite's quality control is not their best feature. IMHO too many products leave the factor defective. This however is made up for by a superb service that I doubt any company could match. You know I flooded my Ikelite video housing on its first outing. Inside a TRV900, Ikelite paid for a complete new camera. No arguments! That's service that the Japanese companies would be hard pushed to match. Look at these forum pages, do we have any Inon or Sea & Sea reps (apart from yourself) giving product advice? (Hope I'm not wrong )

 

I fully understand that having invested a large amount of money in a product that you feel duty bound to support it at all opportunities. I am also sure that your Inon strobes are working very well and your taking some fantastic shots. Good for you. But going way back to the original question DS-50 vs DS-125 vs YS90, there really is no choice!

[craig 0]

I have never represented myself as having used an Ike strobe. I do have experience with them, though, and have detailed what that is already. I do use other Ike products.

 

Durability can be determined without years of use. Development engineers do it all the time. You can, as a customer, determine durability through experience and examination of a product. Anyone who does so with the Inon will realize it will be a durable strobe. Furthermore, Inon strobes are not at all new to me. I've been familiar with them since 2001.

 

I did not compare Ike strobes to dime store cologne and fast food. I used those examples to point out the obvious error in your logic (which you continue to foolishly assert). I do not hate Ike products though I don't like the 50 due to the battery compartment. Here is a wetpixel thread that discusses a DS-50 flood due to trouble with the battery compartment door. Notice I wasn't involved.

 

A product that regularly requires product support is not worth owning. I expect my Inon strobes to be reliable and I expect my dealer and US distributor to support me properly in the event of any issue. I have no reason to suspect they won't. I won't purchase any inferior product just because I can get superior support for it.

 

For some reason you continue to question my motives in this thread. I responded for two reasons. First, you made a clearly bogus claim regarding the bulletproof reliability of the Ike battery compartment, and second, you made a unsupportable claim that Inon strobes were flimsy and specifically inferior to Ike strobes. Prior to that, I was not involved here. Everyone knows I like Inons and do my best to respond when asked about them. People who know me better understand I don't concern myself with cost or how much I have invested.

[Ryan 48]

To refer to a Z-220 as flimsy is ridiculous, as Craig pointed out.

 

I wish the dials were bigger, but the strobe is extremely well constructed. Those that know me know I'm not at all gentle on gear. I fully expect my Z-220s to handle all of the above situations you describe.

 

It would be stupid for retailers, such as MCD and myself, to handle a strobe with fledgling US support that was unreliable. Since we basically started by warrantying these things ourselves, I would have never sold one if there were concerns. It is for this same reason you'll never see Epoque on my site. Now that Inon USA is up and running, and running quite well, customers should feel confident in their dealers and US distribution.

[craig 0]

I wish the dials were bigger, but the strobe is extremely well constructed. Those that know me know I'm not at all gentle on gear. I fully expect my Z-220s to handle all of the above situations you describe.

I wish there were a way to read power settings more easily at night, too.

[scubag 0]

If I can just say "Chill out guys". Although I use Ikelite, I'm sure that there are many serious photographers using Inon (besides Craig). Use what works, what feels good, and gets the job done w/o interfering w/ creativity. Who cares what brand it is.

 

By the way, are either of you guys dealers selling this stuff?

 

Doug

[ikelite 0]

I usually try to avoid these pissing contests, but CRAIG's posting of a link to one person's leak when he tore the glued "O" ring from his DS-50 battery door is convincing? And his "three or four friends" that flooded their battery compartments over a period of a few years only proves he runs with people that are not smart enough to tighten a simple attaching knob.

[craig 0]

I think your comments are a little too personal, Ike. It wouldn't surprise me if they are more careful with their stuff than you are. My link was relevant because it proves there are others that question the Ike 50 battery door. You lnow that already, Ike. I know that for a fact.

 

At this point, I wonder why anyone would consider products from a manufacturer that openly insults its customers. I'll forward Ike's comments to my friends.

[wetpixel 0]

Sorry, guys. I'm locking this thread.