I have TTL and other questions!

[jayelwin 1]

Hello,

 

I have a few questions about TTL that will probably reveal how little I know about underwater photography gear. I have been taking pictures on dry land for a long time and have learned a lot about photography in general, but this does not translate into understanding underwater photography. (I can still tell you my N+1, N, N-1 times using Xtol 1:1 for those who remember what that means!)

 

I have a G9 and Canon's underwater enclosure. I am now realizing the shortcomings of this setup. The main problem is simply the lack of light from the feeble internal flash. So an external strobe seems to be in order. The Sea and Sea YS-110 claims to be able to do TTL flash metering without being connected to the camera. Does anyone know how this is possible? The camera's flash fires and triggers the strobe to fire. How does the camera tell the strobe to stop? How does the camera communicate with the strobe without an electrical connection? I am baffled.

 

Also I own a 5D mark II and am considering buying an enclosure for that before my Christmas 2010 St. John's trip. Now that camera does not have a flash. So is there some part of the enclosure you hook up to the hot shoe before you close it up? And then does it hard wire up to strobes? Again I'm not sure how the camera communicates with the strobes from inside a waterproof enclosure.

 

Of course if I buy a strobe to use for the G9 I need it to work for a future DSLR enclosure purchase. So I'd also guess purchasing a Sea and Sea strobe would mean I'd have to buy their brand enclosure. I guess I'll have to pre-select an enclosure for my DSLR and then stick to those branded strobes? Go with Ikelite? Their DSLR enclosures seem to be about 1/2 the price of Sea and Sea. Remember I'm just an enthusiastic amateur, not a pro. Would an Ikelite strobe do some sort of TTL using the Canon branded G9 enclosure.

 

I have a lot of lenses for my 5DII. I have the 17-40, 24-105, and the 100 macro. Obviously focus is autofocus. How do you zoom? Does the enclosure somehow allow you to turn the zoom on the lenses? I know that may sound like a real stupid question for most of you, but hey, I've never held one of these things in my hand. It seems that the enclosures need different front end lens ports for different lenses. What would you recommend I start with? Most underwater photography seems to be fairly wide angle - go with whatever the 17-40 requires? Macro seems to also be discussed - is there one lens port that would work with both the WA and the macro?

 

I have a manual focus 14 mm wide angle lens that fits the camera. It's a Samyang 14mm 2.8 lens. For dry land use I highly recommend it - incredibly sharp lens corner to corner. Google it! Is it at all possible to use a manual focus lens in an enclosure? I'm just going to flat out guess my 70-200 has no real purpose under water.

 

Thanks for taking the time to read all of these questions.

 

-Josh

Edited September 1, 2010 by jayelwin

[diver dave1 23]

The Sea and Sea YS-110 claims to be able to do TTL flash metering without being connected to the camera. Does anyone know how this is possible? The camera's flash fires and triggers the strobe to fire. How does the camera tell the strobe to stop? How does the camera communicate with the strobe without an electrical connection?

Optical connection...YS-110 and others such as Inon strobes see when your camera flash goes on/off and follows it.

 

How do you zoom? Does the enclosure somehow allow you to turn the zoom on the lenses?

They use a 'zoom ring' that slides onto the lense and can be turned via a knob outside the housing.

 

See comments above in bold.

 

You might want to buy a book on underwater photography and read up on it before you get too far into spending a lot of money. That might aid you in buying products that fit what you want to do and how you might upgrade over time. Martin Edge's book is quite popular with many on this site. A search on Amazon will find it for you.

 

A G9 is a good place to start and you might find it fits most of your needs. An optical connection driven strobe seems the logical next step for your desire for more light. But how to use that light and how to accomplish what you want is not as easy as just adding the strobe. Buying a new car does not make you a better driver, just a person in a fancier ride. Reading up on your new endeavor might be useful for you and give you better ideas on how to make the most of your time and money. It will aid getting you from the "how does it work" mode to the "how do I create/capture the picture I want" mode.

 

Equipment varies in cost, such as the strobe price differences you noted. They have different features such as power, recycle time, weight, battery life, replacement battery cost, ease of control, light color. Which fits you best? Researching a book on u/w photography will help you learn which features are important to you. If there were one 'best for everyone' product on the market, we would just buy it and all the others would fade away.

 

You asked questions regarding ports and lenses. Different ports/domes work for different lenses. Again not one product that fits all situations. Your reading will tell you how the different products work and will aid you in deciding what fits you.

[scorpio_fish 5]

I'm not sure where you live, but you could benefit from visiting a dealer, or buying lunch for a wetpixel DSLR shooter in your area.

 

Since the G9 questions are answered, I take on the 5D questions.

 

1) A connector goes on the camera hot shoe. The connector goes through your housing and strobes are connected to the outside of this connector via a cable. There is an electrical connection from strobe to your camera. Remove this "bulkhead" as it is offered referred, there would indeed be a hole in your housing.

 

2) Housings and strobes can be mixed and matched for the most part. It is just a matter of matching up the bulkhead connector with the cord and the cord with the strobe. So you do not have to buy a Sea & Sea housing if you own a Sea & Sea strobe.

 

3) "Would an Ikelite strobe do some sort of TTL using the Canon branded G9 enclosure." Yes in theory. It is a matter of divergent opinion as to how well any of the TTL systems work with digital cameras. My personal opinion is that it kind of works OK most of the time, until it fails.

 

4) Each brand of housing comes with a zoom gear that fits on the lens and mates with an gear that works via a wheel on the outside of your housing.

 

5) Underwater usually is an extreme environment, i.e. wide and macro. The 100mm and 17-40mm will be fine starting points. If you house the 5D, start with these lenses. If you really need something else, you will figure it out.

 

6) It is possible to shoot both macro and wide behind one dome, but it is far from optimal. You will need a dome (the more expensive of the two ports), so you might as well pony up and buy a macro port.

 

7) "Is it at all possible to use a manual focus lens in an enclosure?" Probably not. You would have to make a custom focus gear of some sort. Seeing that it is a 14mm lens, you could just set the focus at about about one and half to two feet away or less and let her rip. It would be worth trying on one dive.

 

8) I don't ever expect to us the 70-200mm underwater. It doesn't mean nobody has. I think James Wiseman here on Wetpixel has a non-Canon brand lens of this length he uses for macro. Definitely not a consensus choice for an underwater macro lens.

[bversteegh 0]

External strobes are the first thing you should consider to improve your underwater photography - internal strobes are only useful for closup shots; and often have shadows even then caused by the lens barrel on the housing. Proper lighting is essential to quality shots - strobes bring out the vivid colors and texture of marine life that you just won't get with poor lighting.

 

If you buy the Sea and Sea strobe for TTL - make sure you get a 110 alpha. The older 110's work fine in manual, but the TTL doesn't work reliably. If you want a strobe that will work with both a DSLR and a compact - make sure you buy a strobe that can be triggered both fiber optically and with a sync cord. The Inon 240z and Sea & Sea YS110a are good choices - the Inon is more powerful, but also more expensive.

 

The fiber optic solution uses your internal strobe (if your camera has one - some DSLR's don't) to trigger the strobe - for manual operation, you can turn the internal strobe to low intensity to save battery - you control the strobe intensity with a knob on the external strobe. For fiber optic ttl - the external strobe mimics the timing of the internal strobe (strobes control exposure by how long they fire) - the camera automatically turns of the strobe when the sensor tells it the exposure is correct, based upon the amount of light reflected back to the sensor. The reason ttl doesn't always work is because the sensor measuring the reflected light can be fooled if the subject doesn't occupy enough area in the frame to cause the exposure to be set based upon the correct distance (ie if your subject is small and not in the center of the frame, the TTL exposure will try to expose something behind the subject - dumping too much light and blowing out the foreground).

 

Ikelite strobes can do TTL with Ikelite housings that have built in TTL converters (usually any camera with a hotshoe will have TTL capability with an Ikelite housing) - but the housing will cost more. They do not perform TTL via fiber optics like the Inon or Sea & Sea - and require an additional controller to trigger them optically. The 160 strobe also uses a proprietary battery - so have to buy an expensive battery pack to swap out between dives.

 

Re your 14mm manual focus lens - DSLR housings have a gear drive knob that can be used to turn either a zoom gear or a focus gear. So a non-zoom lens can be manually focused using the gear drive knob - just a question of whether or not a drive gear exists that works with your lens. The zoom/focus gears don't care whether they are driving a focus or zoom ring - so you just need to know the diameter of the lens at the focus ring and distance back from the mount; and the housing manufacturer can tell you whether or not they have a focus gear that will work. And if you can find a gear that is the right length but larger diameter - you can wrap tape around your lens to make the diameter larger - works fine.

[jayelwin 1]

Thanks for the replies!

 

I definitely want to start with a strobe that will work with the G9 and enclosure I have. That will be a start. The G9 has out-of-water disadvantages as well that make it less than satisfying to use. It suffers from shutter lag, which is worse under water. Any critter was long gone when it finally took the shot. Almost all my photography is done with the 5DII on land. I see eventually using that camera under water as well. If I start with a strobe I want to make sure it will work in the future with a DSLR enclosure I may eventually buy.

 

It seems there is poor interchangeability between enclosures and lighting systems. And there is a tremendous range in price for enclosures. I'd figure giving myself a future $1500+ or so budget for a DSLR enclosure is reasonable. From my research that leaves Ikelite and Nimar. There is very little information on the web about the Nimar setup. And the Ikelite seems to be more of an established "system" for future potential. Sea and Sea and Aquatica are much too expensive.

 

It seems the Sea and Sea 110-alpha would be a good strobe to get TTL functioning with the G9 via fiber optics. If I cannot then afford a Sea and Sea enclosure, what $1500-$1800 enclosure would work in the future with the 5DII and that Sea and Sea strobe? The Ikelite seems to do TTL only with their own strobes.

 

Are there any underwater photography gear dealers in Central Jersey anyone is familiar with?

 

-Thanks

Edited September 3, 2010 by jayelwin

[bvanant 195]

Thanks for the replies!

 

I definitely want to start with a strobe that will work with the G9 and enclosure I have. That will be a start. The G9 has out-of-water disadvantages as well that make it less than satisfying to use. It suffers from shutter lag, which is worse under water. Any critter was long gone when it finally took the shot. Almost all my photography is done with the 5DII on land. I see eventually using that camera under water as well. If I start with a strobe I want to make sure it will work in the future with a DSLR enclosure I may eventually buy.

 

It seems there is poor interchangeability between enclosures and lighting systems. And there is a tremendous range in price for enclosures. I'd figure giving myself a future $1500+ or so budget for a DSLR enclosure is reasonable. From my research that leaves Ikelite and Nimar. There is very little information on the web about the Nimar setup. And the Ikelite seems to be more of an established "system" for future potential. Sea and Sea and Aquatica are much too expensive.

 

It seems the Sea and Sea 110-alpha would be a good strobe to get TTL functioning with the G9 via fiber optics. If I cannot then afford a Sea and Sea enclosure, what $1500-$1800 enclosure would work in the future with the 5DII and that Sea and Sea strobe? The Ikelite seems to do TTL only with their own strobes.

 

Are there any underwater photography gear dealers in Central Jersey anyone is familiar with?

 

-Thanks

There is no 1500 enclosure period if you need ports. At $1800 you could get the Ikelite. If you need TTL (you don't) then any of the strobes that can sync via an electrical connection will work in manual mode. I would recommend the Inon Z240 instead of the YS110 but that is personal preference and both are the same price more or less.

 

Bill

[jayelwin 1]

There is no 1500 enclosure period if you need ports. At $1800 you could get the Ikelite. If you need TTL (you don't) then any of the strobes that can sync via an electrical connection will work in manual mode. I would recommend the Inon Z240 instead of the YS110 but that is personal preference and both are the same price more or less.

 

Bill

 

 

Good advice. Seems the Inon has "Slave TTL" and would work well with the G9. Force the G9 flash in program mode and the Inon will provide appropriate light. You are right that TTL may not be necessary in a lot of circumstances.

 

Will the Inon do TTL with an Ikelite housing? The 5DII has no flash so slave TTL is out. I guess it could always do Auto based on f-stop the old fashioned way.

 

Thanks.

-Josh

[Trey 0]

Good advice. Seems the Inon has "Slave TTL" and would work well with the G9. Force the G9 flash in program mode and the Inon will provide appropriate light. You are right that TTL may not be necessary in a lot of circumstances.

 

Will the Inon do TTL with an Ikelite housing? The 5DII has no flash so slave TTL is out. I guess it could always do Auto based on f-stop the old fashioned way.

 

Thanks.

-Josh

???

[derway 2]

Will the Inon do TTL with an Ikelite housing? The 5DII has no flash so slave TTL is out. I guess it could always do Auto based on f-stop the old fashioned way.

 

Thanks.

-Josh

 

No. Only ike strobes will do TTL with ike housings, when the conversion circuitry is built into the housing.

 

Ike strobes are great, and if you hook them up to a heinrich optical slave converter, they do optical slave TTL perfectly fine.

[ornate_wrasse 0]

Are there any underwater photography gear dealers in Central Jersey anyone is familiar with?

 

Hi Josh,

 

I don't know of any that are in Cenral Jersey, however, Backscatter does have a store in Derry, New Hampshire (they call it Backscatter East as their main store is in California). I don't know what city you're in, but I found out that it's less than a five hour drive from Newark, NJ. If you go up for a weekend and visit the shop, you may find it to be productive, depending of course on what your reason is for visiting the shop.

 

I'd also like to add to the excellent advice given to you about getting a gear to allow you to manually focus your 14mm lens. You might check with Reef Photo and Video. They are one of Wetpixel's sponsors. I'm betting that they'd either be able to get you a gear that would work with your lens and housing or they'd be able to jury-rig something that would work for you. They are very good at that.

 

We're happy to help you here so don't hesitate to come back with more questions as they come up.

 

Ellen

 

PS Yes I am familiar with Xtol, even though that's not the developer I normally use

[jayelwin 1]

Thanks for the reply.

 

I'm leaning towards getting a tray and arms for a pair of inon z-240s and using them with my G9 enclosure. I am frequently in fort lauderdale and will check out reef. Not surprised that new jersey is not big on underwater photography stores.

 

I just got back from bermuda and did a lot of dry land photography with the 14. What an amazing lens. I cannot recommend it more. I have been perpetually unhappy with both the 17-40 and even the 24 setting on the 24-105 due to bad chromic aberration at the edges. This lens has an amazing complete lack of CA at the edges along with being incredibly sharp. I posted a few dry shots on dpreview. http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/readflat...essage=36225564

[ornate_wrasse 0]

I'm leaning towards getting a tray and arms for a pair of inon z-240s and using them with my G9 enclosure. I am frequently in fort lauderdale and will check out reef.

 

I have two Inon Z-240s and I've been very happy with them, although I learned when I was at Alex Mustard's Workshop to be aware of the differences in the color temperature between the Inon and other strobes. The size of the Inon makes it great for traveling and you can't beat that it uses commonly available batteries. I use Eneloops in mine.

 

Great idea to visit Reef. I went to the shop once when I was in Ft. Lauderdale and was very pleased to have met Ryan Canon while I was there. Ryan seems to have all the answers when it comes to underwater photography

 

 

I just got back from bermuda and did a lot of dry land photography with the 14. What an amazing lens. I cannot recommend it more. I have been perpetually unhappy with both the 17-40 and even the 24 setting on the 24-105 due to bad chromic aberration at the edges. This lens has an amazing complete lack of CA at the edges along with being incredibly sharp. I posted a few dry shots on dpreview. http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/readflat...essage=36225564

 

That lens does look like it does a great job. The stalactites in the cave are very sharp indeed!

 

A lot of folks here like the Tokina 10-17 Fisheye lens which is normally for DX cameras. I use mine with my D300. Some folks using full frame cameras such as yours have managed to get good results with it. You might do a search here to see how they do it.

 

All the best,

 

Ellen