Suggestions for a UW Videographer Wannabe

[Phoenix1 0]

I am an intermediate UW DSLR user (current rig--D700 in an Aquatica housing). I am thinking of doing some underwater video. Not long ago, I took some video a friend did and put it together with my stills for a pretty nice movie in iMovie. I'd now like to try to do both.

 

Is there somewhere on this forum or elsewhere where I can educate myself on camera and housing choices? I apologize if it's here; I looked a bit and found nothing.

 

A quick bit of looking suggests that camera plus housing starts around $2,000. I'm not interested in a big bucks purchase, but I think I can swing the low end.

 

I am advanced Mac user, but I don't intend anything commercial or very elaborate.

 

Eventually, I'll probably want to do some macro, since Bonaire diving has hooked me on the little stuff.

 

Any help would be appreciated.

[ornate_wrasse 0]

I am an intermediate UW DSLR user (current rig--D700 in an Aquatica housing). I am thinking of doing some underwater video. Not long ago, I took some video a friend did and put it together with my stills for a pretty nice movie in iMovie. I'd now like to try to do both.

 

Is there somewhere on this forum or elsewhere where I can educate myself on camera and housing choices? I apologize if it's here; I looked a bit and found nothing.

 

A quick bit of looking suggests that camera plus housing starts around $2,000. I'm not interested in a big bucks purchase, but I think I can swing the low end.

 

I am advanced Mac user, but I don't intend anything commercial or very elaborate.

 

Eventually, I'll probably want to do some macro, since Bonaire diving has hooked me on the little stuff.

 

Any help would be appreciated.

 

I will shamelessly admit I know almost nothing about underwater video. However, The Real Drew, one of the Wetpixel moderators, is very knowledgeable about video. He has also won awards for his uw videos. Another plus is that he is an advanced Mac user. You might want to contact him with your questions.

 

Hope that helps,

 

Ellen

[sjspeck 3]

Here's my attempt at some basics.

 

I've been shooting u/w video for fun since 2002. For reference, I currently shoot a Sony 1CMOS camera in an Amphibico housing.

My dive buddy just bought a Canon consumer HD camera and their housing.

 

I'm not a Mac person so can't help with that except that Final Cut Pro seems to get a lot of mention.

 

A couple other web options are the Videography forum on Scubaboard (I'm a regular participant/moderator there). The "what camera/housing should I buy" gets answered there fairly regularly. Underwatervideography.com shows promise.

 

There's also a couple of DVD"s, and several books. Most have dated gear descriptions but still provide useful basics.

 

The basics are similar for shooting stills or video. You need on-camera adjustments, enough light and optimally the ability to White Balance. Compensating for loss of Red at depth is also done with lights or an add-on filter.

 

There's about 3 tiers of "prosumer" housings available. (people hate that word..lol) The majority of u/w videographers likely shoot Sony cameras - at least just about everyone I know does except my b-i-l and his decision was based almost solely on cost.

 

The most recent are the Flip Mino HD, the JVC Picsio, Kodak Z18 and several other models including the GoPro Hero and other "helmet" cams. Most have fixed focus or other limitations but can turn out surprisingly good results. There are many u/w examples on Youtube or Vimeo.

 

Ikelite makes an affordable housing for the Flip, Picsio and Kodak, the complete camera and housing pkg. is under $500 - adding their video light/tray is about $300 more. There's also a housing for the GoPro and one other (Contour?) - I don't follow them.

 

The next step up is housing a "conventional" video camcorder. Canon sells 3 models that fit into their proprietary housing - camera and housing are each in the $450-800 range. My buddy has the HF200 in their WPV1 housing, it's a full 1920x1080 AVCHD (Hi-Def) camcorder but the housing has limited controls - on/off, start/stop, zoom/wide angle and one more I can't recall. It's also depth limited to 130' The front port is threaded so you can add a w/a lens or filters as needed - the camera has a built-in u/w mode but we had very mixed results with it in daylight this spring in Turks/Caicos. He plans to buy lights and a red filter now.

 

It does allow you to view the camcorder LCD screen in the open position. The current models are the MF30/300/31 and the housing is the WP-V2. All are on the Canon website. Differences in the cameras are primarily the storage media afaik.

 

A step up are dedicated Poly housings made by Ikelite, Equinox, Ocean Images and several others. These will range from a base price of about $800 to over $1500. Since the Ikelite/Equinox use mechanical controls, they're pretty model specific.

 

So paired with a Canon/Sony model they would still fall within your $2000 budget. Add on Ports, WA lenses, LCD Monitors and other options are also available. The Ikelite and Equinox are mechanical control models - a pushrod or button manually accesses each control function. With the Ocean Images and certain Sony (only) models, most of the controls are electronic on the handles.

 

With the Ikelite and O/I a manual control rod is positioned so that you can touch the LCD screen for White Balance and other control functions, the Equinox doesn't provide that option.

 

Some of the Ikelite models allow you to view the LCD directly - others use a mirror as the LCD is reversed and flattened against the camera - these pan backwards with Canon models - some of the Sony models have reversing circuitry included. The O/I models allow you to view the LCD monitor flat in the housing, Equinox provides a back mounted optional monitor - or has a restricted view.

 

A cost/feature reduced version of the Light & Motion Stingray is manufactured for TopDawg. Controls are on the housing, not the handles, feature differences and depth limitiations. It also has a flat port - which is actually good for macro. It also accepts a wide variety of Sony cameras.

 

Aquatica makes a video housing also. It's a mechanical model specifically made for three Sony camera models. IIRC it's $2250.

 

The three premier housing manufacturers are Gates, Amphibico and Light & Motion.

 

Amphibico just announced a cost reduced version of their Dive Buddy EVO - the housing I own - for $1500. The trade-off is that it has a flat glass front port and only works with certain Sony models. Light & Motion lists the base model of their Stingray housing at $1999 so depending on how much you can stretch your budget...afaik all the Gates line start about there also - I haven't looked lately.

 

And then there's lights - that can be $500-3500. And there's some pretty expensive pieces of glass out there for some housings with interchangeable ports. Other options are micro/hydrophones, flip down filters, external monitors, etc.

 

Links (had them all bookmarked):

 

http://underwatervideobasics.com/dvb/index.html

http://www.diveintoyourimagination.com/ - the Camera Coach DVD - the author Annie Crawley edits on Mac systems.

 

http://www.hammerheadpress.com/Book_Pages/...gitalvideo.html

 

http://www.usa.canon.com/cusa/consumer/pro...waterproof_case

http://www.ikelite.com

http://www.equinoxhousings.com

http://www.oceanimagesinc.com

http://www.topdawgvideo.com/

http://www.gateshousings.com

http://www.amphibico.com/rec/

http://www.uwimaging.com/systems/stingray

http://www.aquatica.ca/subpages/catalog/ho...ousings_dv.html

 

For other options - I maintain a video housing manufacturer list - it contains all that I'm currently aware of worldwide.

 

I would suggest also contacting a dealer or two for recommendations. Here are some I've met/dealt with.

 

My dealer is Mike Luzansky at H2OPhotopros - he's on here also (Mike L) http://www.h2ophotopros.com

Ryan at Reef Photo is my buddy's light dealer http://www.reefphoto.com

Backscatter sells video gear http://www.backscatter.com - Berkeley or Mitch?.

Joe Holley at MarineVisions owns underwatervideography.com http://www.marinevisions.com

Edited October 4, 2010 by sjspeck

[Phoenix1 0]

I will shamelessly admit I know almost nothing about underwater video. However, The Real Drew, one of the Wetpixel moderators, is very knowledgeable about video. He has also won awards for his uw videos. Another plus is that he is an advanced Mac user. You might want to contact him with your questions.

 

Hope that helps,

 

Ellen

 

Thanks, Ellen. I'll try that.

[Phoenix1 0]

Here's my attempt at some basics.

 

I've been shooting u/w video for fun since 2002. For reference, I currently shoot a Sony 1CMOS camera in an Amphibico housing.

My dive buddy just bought a Canon consumer HD camera and their housing.

 

I'm not a Mac person so can't help with that except that Final Cut Pro seems to get a lot of mention.

 

A couple other web options are the Videography forum on Scubaboard (I'm a regular participant/moderator there). The "what camera/housing should I buy" gets answered there fairly regularly. Underwatervideography.com shows promise.

 

There's also a couple of DVD"s, and several books. Most have dated gear descriptions but still provide useful basics.

 

The basics are similar for shooting stills or video. You need on-camera adjustments, enough light and optimally the ability to White Balance. Compensating for loss of Red at depth is also done with lights or an add-on filter.

 

There's about 3 tiers of "prosumer" housings available. (people hate that word..lol) The majority of u/w videographers likely shoot Sony cameras - at least just about everyone I know does except my b-i-l and his decision was based almost solely on cost.

 

The most recent are the Flip Mino HD, the JVC Picsio, Kodak Z18 and several other models including the GoPro Hero and other "helmet" cams. Most have fixed focus or other limitations but can turn out surprisingly good results. There are many u/w examples on Youtube or Vimeo.

 

Ikelite makes an affordable housing for the Flip, Picsio and Kodak, the complete camera and housing pkg. is under $500 - adding their video light/tray is about $300 more. There's also a housing for the GoPro and one other (Contour?) - I don't follow them.

 

The next step up is housing a "conventional" video camcorder. Canon sells 3 models that fit into their proprietary housing - camera and housing are each in the $450-800 range. My buddy has the HF200 in their WPV1 housing, it's a full 1920x1080 AVCHD (Hi-Def) camcorder but the housing has limited controls - on/off, start/stop, zoom/wide angle and one more I can't recall. It's also depth limited to 130' The front port is threaded so you can add a w/a lens or filters as needed - the camera has a built-in u/w mode but we had very mixed results with it in daylight this spring in Turks/Caicos. He plans to buy lights and a red filter now.

 

It does allow you to view the camcorder LCD screen in the open position. The current models are the MF30/300/31 and the housing is the WP-V2. All are on the Canon website. Differences in the cameras are primarily the storage media afaik.

 

A step up are dedicated Poly housings made by Ikelite, Equinox, Ocean Images and several others. These will range from a base price of about $800 to over $1500. Since the Ikelite/Equinox use mechanical controls, they're pretty model specific.

 

So paired with a Canon/Sony model they would still fall within your $2000 budget. Add on Ports, WA lenses, LCD Monitors and other options are also available. The Ikelite and Equinox are mechanical control models - a pushrod or button manually accesses each control function. With the Ocean Images and certain Sony (only) models, most of the controls are electronic on the handles.

 

With the Ikelite and O/I a manual control rod is positioned so that you can touch the LCD screen for White Balance and other control functions, the Equinox doesn't provide that option.

 

Some of the Ikelite models allow you to view the LCD directly - others use a mirror as the LCD is reversed and flattened against the camera - these pan backwards with Canon models - some of the Sony models have reversing circuitry included. The O/I models allow you to view the LCD monitor flat in the housing, Equinox provides a back mounted optional monitor - or has a restricted view.

 

A cost/feature reduced version of the Light & Motion Stingray is manufactured for TopDawg. Controls are on the housing, not the handles, feature differences and depth limitiations. It also has a flat port - which is actually good for macro. It also accepts a wide variety of Sony cameras.

 

Aquatica makes a video housing also. It's a mechanical model specifically made for three Sony camera models. IIRC it's $2250.

 

The three premier housing manufacturers are Gates, Amphibico and Light & Motion.

 

Amphibico just announced a cost reduced version of their Dive Buddy EVO - the housing I own - for $1500. The trade-off is that it has a flat glass front port and only works with certain Sony models. Light & Motion lists the base model of their Stingray housing at $1999 so depending on how much you can stretch your budget...afaik all the Gates line start about there also - I haven't looked lately.

 

And then there's lights - that can be $500-3500. And there's some pretty expensive pieces of glass out there for some housings with interchangeable ports. Other options are micro/hydrophones, flip down filters, external monitors, etc.

 

Links (had them all bookmarked):

 

http://underwatervideobasics.com/dvb/index.html

http://www.diveintoyourimagination.com/ - the Camera Coach DVD - the author Annie Crawley edits on Mac systems.

 

http://www.hammerheadpress.com/Book_Pages/...gitalvideo.html

 

http://www.usa.canon.com/cusa/consumer/pro...waterproof_case

http://www.ikelite.com

http://www.equinoxhousings.com

http://www.oceanimagesinc.com

http://www.topdawgvideo.com/

http://www.gateshousings.com

http://www.amphibico.com/rec/

http://www.uwimaging.com/systems/stingray

http://www.aquatica.ca/subpages/catalog/ho...ousings_dv.html

 

For other options - I maintain a video housing manufacturer list - it contains all that I'm currently aware of worldwide.

 

I would suggest also contacting a dealer or two for recommendations. Here are some I've met/dealt with.

 

My dealer is Mike Luzansky at H2OPhotopros - he's on here also (Mike L) http://www.h2ophotopros.com

Ryan at Reef Photo is my buddy's light dealer http://www.reefphoto.com

Backscatter sells video gear http://www.backscatter.com - Berkeley or Mitch?.

Joe Holley at MarineVisions owns underwatervideography.com http://www.marinevisions.com

 

Thanks for your very comprehensive reply. You've given me a lot to digest, so I'll get going. Meanwhile, here are some reactions/responses to your help:

 

1. I probably want to stick in the middle group. I am not sure I'm ready for pro video (nor will I have as much time or opportunity given my attachment to my still work), but I am easily frustrated with the limitations of the entry level stuff. A Canon or Sony, possibly in an Ike housing, will probably be about right.

 

2. I have a little research to do on the camera itself, which I would also use on land. I am way more fond of (Apple's) iMovie 6 HD than the later versions, but this program limits my camera choices to mini-DV and Firewire transfer models. There are still some out there, but they do not predominate in the modern market. There are many who still prefer mini DV to hard drive models. Another bit of research I need to do is consider moving up to either Final Cut Pro (probably too much for me) or Final Cut Express. This move may make the format either less important or unimportant. If anyone knows, let me know. The Mac boards are probably my best bet there.

 

3. I'm unclear how important lights are to video. I rarely if ever shoot stills in natural light, even at 10 - 15 feet, although on those occasions when the flash hasn't recycled and I'm shooting natural (and RAW), Photoshop forgives a multitude of sins. Yet my friend shot video without lights for a week at depths down to 50-60 feet (yes, a bit blue) and the results were extremely good. I'm guessing with the right filter, a fast lens and depths of 35' and up I can do pretty well, yes? He was using a 5+ year old consumer Sony (probably not a CMOS sensor), so I'm assuming the cameras have only gotten better.

 

4. Something I'd like to be able to use is a wet macro. I think I saw a few Ikelite housing models with this option. I want to be able to shoot wide, but pop in a macro under water in case some interesting little stuff pops up.

 

Thanks once again for all the time you took to run me through the basics.

Edited October 5, 2010 by Phoenix1

[Steve Douglas 16]

Alot depends upon your budget. I am certainly not a fan of the inexpensive ikelight housings. Every one seems to constantly complain about their condensation issues when using them and I am not sure about the quality of the glass in their dome ports. In my mind, depending upon what camcorder you choose there are Light and Motion, Gates and Amphibico as the housings I might consider. L & M and Amphibico are electronic housing and Amphibico does make housings for the middle and higher end camcorders while L & M, sadly, only makes housings for the middle and entry level cams. Gates makes housings for all levels and is a real workhorse of a housing, however, they are all manually controlled which is easy enough to get used to. It is the quality of the ports, the Fathoms Lens, that makes such a big difference in the end result of your footage. I have said it before, I would rather have someone filming for me with a mid level cam who knows what they are doing than someone with a Red One who doesn't know which end is up. It is not the tool you use but the tool who is using the tool that counts.

 

As for the Mac. I have always been a Mac and Final Cut Pro user since its version 1 inception and while Final Cut Express has greatly improved, no matter what NLE(non linear editing application) you choose, there will still be a learning curve. As a FCP teacher and user, I honestly believe that it is an application that is much easier to learn than it used to and that you and I will never outgrow it. The same for the better PC only editing NLEs. If they are good, you are constantly learning so don't be afraid of it and don't underestimate your ability to eventually master it. Just take one step at a time.

 

For video, as well as still photographers(who use strobe lights) video lights are very important. Always at least 2. You know that as you go deeper the colors disapate. Having video lights will enable you to bring back the colors on your footage. While even the best video lights have a limited throw and are best utilized with close up and medium shots, I never go in the water without them. The best lights will allow you to adjust the lumens setting so that for close up work you do not blow out the picture.

 

I own a wet macro lens which I keep on and just flip up when not in use. In Lembeh I found if to be very useful though you have to zoom in a bit to avoid vignetteing. My partner at the time, hated his but I don't think he gave it a good chance. I liked mine and would recommend one for macro use.

 

Hope this helps a bit and don't hesitate to keep those questions coming. That's how we all learn.

Steve

[Phoenix1 0]

Alot depends upon your budget. I am certainly not a fan of the inexpensive ikelight housings. Every one seems to constantly complain about their condensation issues when using them and I am not sure about the quality of the glass in their dome ports. In my mind, depending upon what camcorder you choose there are Light and Motion, Gates and Amphibico as the housings I might consider. L & M and Amphibico are electronic housing and Amphibico does make housings for the middle and higher end camcorders while L & M, sadly, only makes housings for the middle and entry level cams. Gates makes housings for all levels and is a real workhorse of a housing, however, they are all manually controlled which is easy enough to get used to. It is the quality of the ports, the Fathoms Lens, that makes such a big difference in the end result of your footage. I have said it before, I would rather have someone filming for me with a mid level cam who knows what they are doing than someone with a Red One who doesn't know which end is up. It is not the tool you use but the tool who is using the tool that counts.

 

As for the Mac. I have always been a Mac and Final Cut Pro user since its version 1 inception and while Final Cut Express has greatly improved, no matter what NLE(non linear editing application) you choose, there will still be a learning curve. As a FCP teacher and user, I honestly believe that it is an application that is much easier to learn than it used to and that you and I will never outgrow it. The same for the better PC only editing NLEs. If they are good, you are constantly learning so don't be afraid of it and don't underestimate your ability to eventually master it. Just take one step at a time.

 

For video, as well as still photographers(who use strobe lights) video lights are very important. Always at least 2. You know that as you go deeper the colors disapate. Having video lights will enable you to bring back the colors on your footage. While even the best video lights have a limited throw and are best utilized with close up and medium shots, I never go in the water without them. The best lights will allow you to adjust the lumens setting so that for close up work you do not blow out the picture.

 

I own a wet macro lens which I keep on and just flip up when not in use. In Lembeh I found if to be very useful though you have to zoom in a bit to avoid vignetteing. My partner at the time, hated his but I don't think he gave it a good chance. I liked mine and would recommend one for macro use.

 

Hope this helps a bit and don't hesitate to keep those questions coming. That's how we all learn.

Steve

 

 

Steve:

 

Thanks a lot.

 

My pursuit of videography will be subject to several limitations:

 

1. Time. I've spent every dive for the last 10 years with a still camera in my hand. There may be some naturals out there, but my own experience was that it took practice to produce good stuff. Then I went digital, and the learning curve steepened again. I really want to be able to turn out decent video, mostly to share with family and friends, but with "only" about four weeks of recreational diving a year (yes, I am one very lucky guy), I may not have the time to become the best of the best of the best. Same with post production (since I also have a day job). So I'm going to have to make some trade-offs on where I spend my underwater photo time.

 

2. Money. I have (according to my wife) waaaay too many expensive hobbies. I do, of course, a lot of on-land still photography. We own, maintain and fly an airplane. I am a competitive shooter. I am into woodworking. All this stuff requires toys (in the case of the plane "safety devices") and the training to use them. Even I admit that I have to moderate my spending on a new venture. So I may not be able to reach for the best, at least not right away. In underwater stills, I moved from a borrowed Sea & Sea to a Nikonos to a housed D700. I may have to do that with videography to see if I even like it or if I can do passably well at it.

 

All this suggests some moderation, at least at first. With that tentative conclusion in mind, here are a few follow up questions:

 

A. Is there a respectable used market for this stuff? Offerings on Wetpixel look promising. Some of the gear is a bit long in the tooth, but reduced prices make them attractive.

 

B. Is there a way to get into Final Cut Pro without spending $1,000? Apple wants to sell me Final Cut Studio with a few programs in addition to Pro that I don't know if I need. eBay shows a number of earlier versions that are a lot less expensive, some academic (i.e., non-upgradeable), just Pro without the add-ons. Can I start that way? (And can I get away with a recent 2.8 gig iMac, or do I "need" a new tower too?

 

C. I know the value of a CMOS sensor vs. CCD in still photos. Will I be unhappy with a CCD in video, knowing the current crop offers CMOS?

 

I have a bunch of other questions, but that's a good start.

[BDSC 1]

A. Is there a respectable used market for this stuff? Offerings on Wetpixel look promising. Some of the gear is a bit long in the tooth, but reduced prices make them attractive.

 

Buying used is a great way to go to get started. That's what I did when I first started out. I purchased a complete uw video system that was initally $4300 new and paid $1000 for it and it looked in almost new condition. That included the housing, camcorder, lights, and case. It wasn't an upper end unit but it served me quite well for close to two years until I upgraded to my current Light and Motion system. I also bought that used and you couldn't tell it from a new one. So I think used is a great way to go. You get so much more for your money. Lets face it, doing uw video for most people is a hobby within a hobby. It's not like there is a huge demand for this product, especially in today's economy. So when people go to sell their equipment, they usually take a pretty good hit on the price. I've seen products listed here and on ScubaBoard that will start out at one price and eventually will be sold for a much lower price if it gets sold at all.