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DSLR or EVIL camera ?

SLR or EVIL   

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  1. 1. What would you buy, a SLR or an EVIL camera ?

    • SLR Camera
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    • EVIL Camera
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What would you buy with the future in mind, A SLR camera or a EVIL (mirrorless) camera ?

 

Whil the SLR disapear and be replaced with the evil cameras ?

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What would you buy with the future in mind, A SLR camera or a EVIL (mirrorless) camera ?

 

Whil the SLR disapear and be replaced with the evil cameras ?

 

I like the CONCEPT of an EVIL, but so far they haven't ironed out the flaws yet. (And I came into DLSR's with the Olympus E-330 being totally gung ho about "true" Live-View.)

 

I think there'll be some sort of synthesis in the coming years still -- witness Sony's DLT pellicle updates, hints of a rapidly shuttering mirror/clear LCD with electronic overlays in Olympus testing, or putting phase-detect AF on the sensor per Fuji's patents -- such that one can still have an optical viewfinder, gain additional electronic information overlays in that view, and keep PDAF speed/accuracy yet still eliminate a 'mechanical' mirror actuation. Such a beast wouldn't fit the "EVIL" nor "DLSR" definition, technically. But it would rock.

 

Tradeoffs are still (IMO):

  • Clarity//brightness/pixelation of 'electronic view' for judging focus, DOF, framing
  • "Video lag" in electronic view (influences reaction time to get the shot)
  • Focus speed/accuracy (ditto above)
  • Sensor noise (live-MOS gets noisy as its left 'on' and heats up..influences IQ, which is why I'm not a huge fan of using the main sensor as the "live view" implementation)
  • Light loss (either to the PDAF or to the sensor, e.g. in a pellicle mirror approach)
  • Overall hardware bulk/ergonomics/etc.

 

No one's current "EVIL" solution 'solves' all these issues...yet.

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The sooner we can get rid of that mirror slapping sound, the better. I know some people like the sound, but I am not one of them. Ruins way too many second chances at the shot.

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I like the CONCEPT of an EVIL, but so far they haven't ironed out the flaws yet. (And I came into DLSR's with the Olympus E-330 being totally gung ho about "true" Live-View.)

 

I think there'll be some sort of synthesis in the coming years still -- witness Sony's DLT pellicle updates, hints of a rapidly shuttering mirror/clear LCD with electronic overlays in Olympus testing, or putting phase-detect AF on the sensor per Fuji's patents -- such that one can still have an optical viewfinder, gain additional electronic information overlays in that view, and keep PDAF speed/accuracy yet still eliminate a 'mechanical' mirror actuation. Such a beast wouldn't fit the "EVIL" nor "DLSR" definition, technically. But it would rock.

 

Tradeoffs are still (IMO):

  • Clarity//brightness/pixelation of 'electronic view' for judging focus, DOF, framing
  • "Video lag" in electronic view (influences reaction time to get the shot)
  • Focus speed/accuracy (ditto above)
  • Sensor noise (live-MOS gets noisy as its left 'on' and heats up..influences IQ, which is why I'm not a huge fan of using the main sensor as the "live view" implementation)
  • Light loss (either to the PDAF or to the sensor, e.g. in a pellicle mirror approach)
  • Overall hardware bulk/ergonomics/etc.

 

No one's current "EVIL" solution 'solves' all these issues...yet.

I agree with your assessment. I think what people forget is that the 'ultimate' live view is still a viewfinder, and whereas an LCD can have advantages in certain situations where it is difficult for some reason to bring your eye to the viewfinder, and live view has the potential to decrease the size and weight of a camera, I can't think of a single other advantage.

I think a major disadvantage that's not addressed much with LiveView vs Viewfinder, is shooting in sunlight, LCD's to me are a PITA in bright sunlight topside where I can't see jack, or even underwater near the surface in bright sunlight. So even when LiveView gets close to viewfinder quality, speed etc, I can't see them ever being better in terms of image clarity.

Edited by loftus

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I agree with your assessment. I think what people forget is that the 'ultimate' live view is still a viewfinder, and whereas an LCD can have advantages in certain situations where it is difficult for some reason to bring your eye to the viewfinder, and live view has the potential to decrease the size and weight of a camera, I can't think of a single other advantage.

I think a major disadvantage that's not addressed much with LiveView vs Viewfinder, is shooting in sunlight, LCD's to me are a PITA in bright sunlight topside where I can't see jack, or even underwater near the surface in bright sunlight. So even when LiveView gets close to viewfinder quality, speed etc, I can't see them ever being better in terms of image clarity.

 

I switched from P&S to DSLR for several reasons, but first and foremost is shutter response. Until an EVIL system can rival a DSLR's shutter response, I'm not interested.

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Another way to look at it I think is why even consider an EVIL camera at the present time, and the answer is size. If size and weight are important for any reason - like travel considerations, then EVIL should be considered. There is no other reason to consider an EVIL camera at this time. I'm not aware of a single pro topside or underwater who yet uses an EVIL camera as their primary camera. Can't think of a shot I've lost due to the mirror slapping sound, especially underwater - a few dirty looks topside shooting maybe....

Mirror noise is definitely improving with newer cameras, and there's even quiet mode now. I think Canon have generally done a better job than Nikon with mirror noise until now, so I was pleased to notice that the new D7000 is significantly quieter than previous Nikons.

Edited by loftus

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Jeff, I'm sure you know that pros tend to need to be "convinced" that a technology works before spending a lot of money. I remember shooting a one person show in an auditorium with a 1Ds Mark II in quiet mode and was told off 10 mins into the show to STFU! And the performer was the one who invited me! An mirrorless DSLR with a good lens would've been perfectly ninja, well if there's no fake shutter noise that can't be turned off completely!

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Jeff, I'm sure you know that pros tend to need to be "convinced" that a technology works before spending a lot of money. I remember shooting a one person show in an auditorium with a 1Ds Mark II in quiet mode and was told off 10 mins into the show to STFU! And the performer was the one who invited me! An mirrorless DSLR with a good lens would've been perfectly ninja, well if there's no fake shutter noise that can't be turned off completely!

What was the performer doing ? Mime at a librarian convention.... :) And you were shooting at 8fps, using strobe.

Seriously though I wish more camera manufacturers would make real digital rangefinder cameras like the Leica M9, but with autofocus etc. Add LiveView all you want for those who want it, but keep a real optical viewfinder. Not a G11 or P7000 with small sensors and crappy viewfinders, or a limited function stick on viewfinder. A real modern Leica M9, not just a digital version of a 60 year old camera coasncept, at a reasonable price. It would be small and lightweight could have all the benefits of modern DSLR's, no mirror noise, instantaneous response etc, etc. You know it could be done NOW and would be way ahead of present EVIL cameras, just without the sexy EVIL name. Underwater though, the viewfinder would be of limited benefit, so DSLR is still king.

Edited by loftus

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What was the performer doing ? Mime at a librarian convention.... :) And you were shooting at 8fps, using strobe.

Seriously though I wish more camera manufacturers would make real digital rangefinder cameras like the Leica M9, but with autofocus etc. Add LiveView all you want for those who want it, but keep a real optical viewfinder. Not a G11 or P7000 with small sensors and crappy viewfinders, or a limited function stick on viewfinder. A real modern Leica M9, not just a digital version of a 60 year old camera coasncept, at a reasonable price. It would be small and lightweight could have all the benefits of modern DSLR's, no mirror noise, instantaneous response etc, etc. You know it could be done NOW and would be way ahead of present EVIL cameras, just without the sexy EVIL name. Underwater though, the viewfinder would be of limited benefit, so DSLR is still king.

There has been a lot of similar discussion about such steps on the Leica forum, with a real split between the 'traditionalists' and those who want to move forward. The problems are that a hybrid design would have to use existing lenses (technically very challenging) or a completely new camera would not be a Leica M rangefinder any more - so there would be a real split in potential purchasers for a niche product - not a good thing! Although my M8-2 is very quiet, I would probably use a dSLR for theatre work personally and blimp it if needed. Someone has tried an M8 underwater and whilst he got shots he was happy with I can't see it taking off - it is possible but that's all.

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I have a Sony Nex-5 and when I can get it away from my wife, I play with it. I don't notice any appreciable shutter lag, though I think it is slower to focus than my Nikon D300, which amounts to the same problem when photographing fish.

Ikelite won't have a housing for the camera (which according to facebook postings on their site will be hard wired for the flash) until the late winter or early spring. I am looking forward to getting it underwater because it is hard for me to judge a camera's performance until using it in a water environment.

 

But the weight factor could be significant. It is probably best - if buying right now - to go DSLR but I think it's clear EVIL cameras will evolve dramatically over the next few years.

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It appears to me that there are three significant features that are driving the sales of the EVIL cameras, #1 is cost compared to a DSLR or consumer compact such as the G-12, #2 image quality, the APS-C and M43 size sensors are 7 to 9 times larger than most consumer point & shoot cameras, #3 size and weight compared to most DSLR systems.

 

The Olympus E-PL1 with 14 to 42 zoom & Olympus housing with a zoom gear now sells for under $1000.00 US. This is a very compelling price point for those just entering U/W photography, moving from a point and shoot or wanting to downsize for travel.

 

Last the shutter lag on these new EVIL cameras while not on par with most DSLR's is for the most part much better than most P&S cameras by far.

 

While I am sure that EVIL cameras would not be the first choice for a "pro" photographer, (although I know several that own one) they are quite capable of taking publishable quality images.

 

Phil Rudin

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I don't know the other EVIL cameras but one might want to wait for the NEX-7 which will have a more DSLR form factor, a new sensor and will shoot manual (more easily than the NEX-5). All this is "well informed rumor" . . .

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I know cost is a factor, but sometimes I think we do newbies a disservice promoting P&S or even EVIL cameras without really emphasizing how important instantaneous shooting is underwater. I wish someone had given me that advice when I got started. I bought a Sea&Sea (state-of the art at the time) P&S at the time and frankly it was a total waste of money when by two dives I realized I really was not interested in shooting the butts of fish any longer. That's not to say that one cannot get high quality images with new EVIL and P&S, particularly for experienced photographers, but in an environment where the subject moves (topside or underwater) speed of focus and capture are of primary importance. I know things have improved, but the advice I would give most beginners looking to buy a camera is that clear visualization in a viewfinder plus instantaneous shooting are probably the two most important aspects of getting decent images starting out. I think one is better off with a used DSLR starting out, then a new P&S or EVIL. Just my opinion of course.

Edited by loftus

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From the Backscatter review of the Olympus E-PL1 "Autofocus is quick, shutter lag is non-existent, and the camera is ready to fire again immediately after shooting an image". These are not the P&S cameras of the past.

 

While I agree that DSLR's and optical viewfinders have several advantages over EVIL cameras for most of use it is with a DSLR that has a 100% viewfinder and an optical finder like the Inon 45 degree & 180 degree finders.

 

I bought the Olympus Pen system for my 12 year old Grandson and find it to be an excellent teaching tool. For a more advanced photographer looking to get into U/W photography a DSLR would seem the better choice.

 

Phil Rudin

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I switched from P&S to DSLR for several reasons, but first and foremost is shutter response. Until an EVIL system can rival a DSLR's shutter response, I'm not interested.

 

That was also my rationale for making the jump. I used a G9, a compact which thinks its an SLR, and housed in an Ike with INON wet lenses it handled like an SLR too. I wouldn't be without my Naughtycam and 7D now but I can imagine that, in a generation or two down the line, the call of an EVIL system will be strong if only for the sake of travel.

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From the Backscatter review of the Olympus E-PL1 "Autofocus is quick, shutter lag is non-existent, and the camera is ready to fire again immediately after shooting an image". These are not the P&S cameras of the past.

 

While I agree that DSLR's and optical viewfinders have several advantages over EVIL cameras for most of use it is with a DSLR that has a 100% viewfinder and an optical finder like the Inon 45 degree & 180 degree finders.

 

I bought the Olympus Pen system for my 12 year old Grandson and find it to be an excellent teaching tool. For a more advanced photographer looking to get into U/W photography a DSLR would seem the better choice.

 

Phil Rudin

No question they've improved and if it's a choice of no camera or EVIL then sure, the answer is obvious. But even the Olympus is still slower, particularly when one considers focusing speed into the 'lag' equation. Imaging Resource comparison 0.886 - 0.95 sec with the Olympus vs 0.238 with a D7000 (kit lenses) Shot to shot speed 1.6 vs 0.48 sec

These differences of course make no difference for a gentle reef scene, but can make a big difference when say trying to capture an action shot. Just something newbies should be aware of.

Edited by loftus

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From the Backscatter review of the Olympus E-PL1 "Autofocus is quick, shutter lag is non-existent, and the camera is ready to fire again immediately after shooting an image". These are not the P&S cameras of the past.

 

While I agree that DSLR's and optical viewfinders have several advantages over EVIL cameras for most of use it is with a DSLR that has a 100% viewfinder and an optical finder like the Inon 45 degree & 180 degree finders.

 

I bought the Olympus Pen system for my 12 year old Grandson and find it to be an excellent teaching tool. For a more advanced photographer looking to get into U/W photography a DSLR would seem the better choice.

 

Phil Rudin

 

 

Interesting they should say that. The Imaging Resource review of the Oly E-PL1 measured shutter lag and they said it was actually slower than many P&S cameras -- as much as 1.3 second with flash on. The NEX-5 was almost twice as fast and a D7000 almost 10 times as fast.

 

whoops! Just noticed Loftus already quoted Imaging Resource. But anyway, I think it's worth mentioning the Oly REALLY slows down with flash on and that's the way you'll be shooting underwater with optical strobes, no?

 

http://www.imaging-resource.com/PRODS/EPL1/EPL1A6.HTM

 

According to their reviews, the Canon S95 is faster than the E-PL1. Maybe Backscatter thought it felt fast, but did they get any measurements or was that just perception? As someone else said in this thread, shutter lag just kills your day, I won't even consider a camera again that has lag. We should have a photo contest of just the ass-end of fish, I have a million of those!

Edited by johnspierce

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hey guys

 

i maybe inexperience to be discussing about this.

however i would like to stress a point that EVIL camera is a perfect upgrade for a compact user.

 

im not going into the war between dslr and evil.

i stress this before and always,

having several friends with dslrs i admit myself that a dslr is far a better camera than evil.

however if we look at the upgrade from a compact to dslr, seriously guys, whether 2nd hand or new, it is still expensive.

everyone has money but not everyone is rich. put shutter lag and IQ aside here.

in my opinion EVIL camera is like the bridge between compact and dslr.

im sure many of newbies used to have a hard time deciding on whether to upgrade.

 

While I am sure that EVIL cameras would not be the first choice for a "pro" photographer, (although I know several that own one) they are quite capable of taking publishable quality images.

 

Phil Rudin

 

not only that, there are some people who upgrade dslr and an uw housing just to find out that it is not their thing.

it would be a waste.

changing from a compact to dslr is a big step.

I know cost is a factor, but sometimes I think we do newbies a disservice promoting P&S or even EVIL cameras without really emphasizing how important instantaneous shooting is underwater. I wish someone had given me that advice when I got started.

 

 

Dear loftus,

we are all a newbie once.

and cameras have evolved dramatically over the years. (did i just took that from an ad..anyways)

im sure u are a great photographer now since u had learn by YOURSELF that instantaneous shooting is VERY important.

that's a good motivation for any of us.

seriously, i don't think im going to hold on to my nex5 10 years later.

i just hope 10years later i would learn the same thing as u are loftus.

the same thing that every newbie learn after many dives with his or her rig.

the most important thing is u learn it by urself, so u know ur strength and weakness in uw photography.

im sure none of us here are a good uw photographer just by reading wetpixel's forum from head to toe.

 

my $0.02

 

thanx

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Hey meme.may.fire,

Thanks for the complements; just giving my opinion and advice for whatever it's worth. My recommendation is not based at all on image quality (IQ). All these cameras DSLR and EVIL, provide image quality that way exceeds most of our needs. If you have an EVIL camera I'm sure it's great and can take great images, but I do disagree with you that EVIL is a good upgrade step from P&S. Why upgrade unless you want the advantages of a DSLR? If you have an old poor quality P&S and you want to stick with the functionality of a P&S, then sure EVIL makes as much sense or maybe a little more than going out and buying another P&S. But there is little more functionality say in an EVIL camera than there is in a good P&S like a Canon G12, except interchangeable lenses. In fact I think the G12 shutter lag etc is better than present EVIL cameras. If one is a photographer who feels the need to upgrade from a P&S for whatever reason, then you will almost certainly feel the need to upgrade again with present EVIL systems in my opinion, so it may actually be less cost effective in the long run.

EVIL is sexy, and maybe the next generation will be as fast as a DSLR, but I think one can be attracted by the technology, not realizing that you are not gaining much in practice by upgrading from P&S to EVIL, and may in fact be losing out on the main benefit of upgrading. I'm so stubborn on this because if I can give one piece of advice to newbies who want to upgrade so that they can take better photographs, it's to forget about megapixels and high tech, choose a camera that is the most responsive you can afford, and be able to see what you are shooting as clearly as possible, presently provided by a good viewfinder. If you feel the need to upgrade from P&S, either wait till EVIL can really do this, or get a DSLR.

Edited by loftus

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Why upgrade unless you want the advantages of a DSLR? If you have an old poor quality P&S and you want to stick with the functionality of a P&S, then sure EVIL makes as much sense or maybe a little more than going out and buying another P&S.

 

so it may actually be less cost effective in the long run.

 

I can give one piece of advice to newbies who want to upgrade so that they can take better photographs, it's to forget about megapixels and high tech, choose a camera that is the most responsive you can afford, and be able to see what you are shooting as clearly as possible, presently provided by a good viewfinder. If you feel the need to upgrade from P&S, either wait till EVIL can really do this, or get a DSLR.

 

this really is a moot point right

even now the dslrs is beating evil fair and square,we moot about it,

im not sure how any photography forum will cater the case of DSLR vs EVIL if later evil is at par with dslrs. (as if!)

 

about cost effectivity, you do have a point, however let one's economy be.

one of the reason i bought my camera is because of a budget cap.

if evil CAN'T be a "bridge" for newbie to upgrade, then let it be their first rig.

 

i respect every point that u have given.

however about the megapixels and hi tech,

im sure nowadays if anyone wants a camera they would use the internet or ask an experience friend or what not to survey for a camera,

im one of them.

before i bought mine, i search months endlessly, surveyed every camera i could think of, read forums and reviews, waste my time searching all corners of the internet for the info, comparing it camera by camera and study the code of "digital camera for dummies",

then only i decided to buy it.

i did not watch a SONY ad and tomorrow i go out and buy it.

kinda think of it, i never saw one. seriously. no joke.

 

megapixels? who picks out camera with megapixels?

this year,i took pictures with a olympus camera that have 7 megapixel, i dont complaint.

i dont put my mind set to "ooohhh,big megapixel...i want"

however im sure there are newbies of that type,

cos without them, sony olympus panasonic will have to change their name and sell just photocopy machines.

 

thanx

 

let me add some more here

last week i went to an international motorshow with a nex5

there was a guy with a dslr. i remember the look on his face when he saw me with my camera.

he looks down on me as if i committed a crime or sumthing for owning an EVIL camera.

look guys, this is worst than rascism.

dont ever judge a person as if he or she cannot own a "PERFECT" camera.

Edited by meme.may.fire

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To me, the pany 4/3rds cams sound much better than the olys. The gf1 and now gf2.

 

They have class leading autofocus. You'll find over and over again - review after review.

 

I can't imagine getting a quite expensive oly with a .5-.9 second total shutter lag time. And that if before adding on the extra for flash!!! Forget it! I'd rather have a sony or pany P&S!!

 

But the sony nex and pany 4/3rds are really looking good.

 

Just wish they had a cheap not ttl optical view finder for topside use in full sun.

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To me, the pany 4/3rds cams sound much better than the olys. The gf1 and now gf2.

 

They have class leading autofocus. You'll find over and over again - review after review.

 

I can't imagine getting a quite expensive oly with a .5-.9 second total shutter lag time. And that if before adding on the extra for flash!!! Forget it! I'd rather have a sony or pany P&S!!

 

But the sony nex and pany 4/3rds are really looking good.

 

Just wish they had a cheap not ttl optical view finder for topside use in full sun.

 

im really looking forward to nikon producing one.

there's been rumours.

really would love to see it being use with those array of nikkor lenses.

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im really looking forward to nikon producing one.

there's been rumours.

really would love to see it being use with those array of nikkor lenses.

 

I don't want to disappoint you but you won't use those nikkors in full functionality. In best case there will be some slow AF. If you want to use them in manual focus you can pick any mirrorless camera right now.

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