Red Scarlet-X

[Drew 0]

My poor old 7D's / 5D's and A1's have paid for themselves about 30 times over each, but I really need a better more professional camera. Clients look at a 7/5D and do need some convincing, they love the images but I think they expect something bigger, weird I know but true.

That's how Zacuto, Red Micro etc have made money making the DSLR look like a pro rig, just to impress clients!

 

For whomever bought in on the Scarlet/Epic, I suggest you first go check out RedCineX Pro with your current editing station to see how long it takes to transcode .r3D. You may also need to get a new computer or the Red Rocket. I suggest 1/4 Debayer to start.

 

 

Same as DEEP RED, but any lens can be added to the list. If it's PL or the new Canon 4K lenses we can use published dimensions to pick the best port extender match. Nikon and Canon DSLR glass require gears fitted here at Gates to check clearances. \

 

I suggest you add the 8-15 to the Deep list for all your housings.

[SimonSpear 65]

I have done the same as Simon and put cash away from every job to upgrade. Dean, renting is a good idea but it is expensive and to be honest renting here is OZ for underwater gear just doesn't happen. If you need a housing for a two day shoot the shipping and renting costs are obscene. So I look at it the other way and if I own it people can rent it from me and pay those costs. The camera itself will pay for itself within a few months for me, the housing will take longer. My poor old 7D's / 5D's and A1's have paid for themselves about 30 times over each, but I really need a better more professional camera. Clients look at a 7/5D and do need some convincing, they love the images but I think they expect something bigger, weird I know but true.

 

Completely agree on renting Jon and it is not much different in the UK for underwater gear. I bought an extra 7D housing because we needed 2 and the cost of renting it over just 2 weeks hire was equivalent to virtually 100% of the purchase cost - no brainer! That housing has now paid for itself even if I leave it to rot and never pick it up again. Admittedly renting cameras is more cost effective than housings but it is still very expensive and not a long term solution for me, especially when you get a call asking if you are free tomorrow like I did last night. It would have been very embarrassing if I'd said yes I was free but I didn't have a camera....

[Drew 0]

Simon, do you think people will call you more often if you put Scarlet on your resumé? For eg, there's a broadcaster which is looking for Epic shooters for a new series (specifically 300fps 2k), prompting one of my buddies to learn how to dive! I doubt he'd have gotten the call if he still had his R1 MX (which does the same thing!!)

[jonny shaw 16]

I think the great thing about Scarlet X is that it's the same body as Epic and the Dragon upgrade will be in the same body so one housing will actually last longer than 3-4 years. Also if the client specifically wants 5K @120fps then they can rent / supply the Epic. I was so close to buying a 2nd hand Red 1 MX as they going pretty cheap now but it's the fact that I may not have to buy another housing for a while that excites me.

 

For most the stuff I do I will buy a Samurai and capture pro res and not even bother with R3D's. Underwater though shooting raw will be great.

[DeanB 19]

It would have been very embarrassing if I'd said yes I was free but I didn't have a camera....

 

Agreed, however you 'have' got a camera! You wouldn't be in business without the right equipment!? You are lucky to have your corporate work and yes renting for that kind of work is a no brainer however for a lot of shooters the production companies will rely on trusted rental houses or their own in house stores to provide the equiPment with the latter being obviously cheaper. when I did the Deadly shoot they supplied my with an A1/Amphibico combo rather than rent my own set up...

 

Well I'm going to sit it out and rent one off of Simon for mates rates

 

Dean

[SimonSpear 65]

Well I'm going to sit it out and rent one off of Simon for mates rates

 

Dean

 

Sounds good to me!

[SimonSpear 65]

Simon, do you think people will call you more often if you put Scarlet on your resumé? For eg, there's a broadcaster which is looking for Epic shooters for a new series (specifically 300fps 2k), prompting one of my buddies to learn how to dive! I doubt he'd have gotten the call if he still had his R1 MX (which does the same thing!!)

 

I'd love to think so Drew and it would be a great bonus, but realistically I'm not counting on it. I've got one project next year who have told me they want "better than XDCAM" and of course if we ever get into full production on The Fin Trail then it will save a significant sum in hire/capital costs. There maybe light at the end of that tunnel but if everyone who had said they'd help/donate etc etc had then we'd have enough by now to shoot two films! Ultimately I'm not expecting miracles but I hope the Scarlet will be a camera that I can keep longer than average and pay for itself with the work I already have and whatever else comes along. Time will tell I guess..!

 

Cheers, Simon

[DeanB 19]

"better than XDCAM"

 

7D or so you keep telling me

 

Dean

[Drew 0]

Sure Simon, but the issue of longevity is something that heat and reliability isn't associated with the Red brand. Why do you think there's permanent Red staff on standby at the big productions like POTC, Hobbit etc? I'm not sure that sort of support will get to the one camera pony shows. Not that other brands don't break down, but it doesn't happen as often because they are not pushing the components to process that much data in such a small package. Not to mention the beta firmware due to short developmental cycle. That said... 4k!!!

[SimonSpear 65]

That said... 4k!!!

 

 

"better than XDCAM"

 

7D or so you keep telling me

 

Dean

 

LOL was very close to burning out two sensors tonight!! Warning lights flashing like made and 5 mins to go....it was a race to see who would finish first - the speaker or the cameras!! haha

[Nick Hope 151]

Buy vs Rent: There's simply nothing like owning your own rig, understanding it's individual characteristics, and customising it for your own use, even if that comes down to simple things like lanyard placement that might catch you out during the shoot. Even when producers brought their own rig, or offered to rent for me, I would use my own if I could. The prospect of using an unfamiliar rental camera/housing for an important shoot without plenty of build-up dives to get used to it and adjust it is scary.

[DeanB 19]

Buy vs Rent: There's simply nothing like owning your own rig, understanding it's individual characteristics, and customising it for your own use, even if that comes down to simple things like lanyard placement that might catch you out during the shoot. Even when producers brought their own rig, or offered to rent for me, I would use my own if I could. The prospect of using an unfamiliar rental camera/housing for an important shoot without plenty of build-up dives to get used to it and adjust it is scary.

 

All very true Nick and I'm not arguing the fact... If you can afford a £25K+ set up and have the clients that actually need that format then great!!! for some rental is a more practical option...

 

Dean

[Drew 0]

Buy vs Rent: There's simply nothing like owning your own rig, understanding it's individual characteristics, and customising it for your own use, even if that comes down to simple things like lanyard placement that might catch you out during the shoot. Even when producers brought their own rig, or offered to rent for me, I would use my own if I could. The prospect of using an unfamiliar rental camera/housing for an important shoot without plenty of build-up dives to get used to it and adjust it is scary.

 

Sure and when you add the complexity of reinstalling firmware on a shoot for a Red in a shoot, it's worse!

[Nick Hope 151]

It's awesome that the same Gates housing is going to support both Epic and Scarlet. Makes it sensible to own a Scarlet for your own work and let Fothergill/Jackson/Cameron sort you an Epic for all those slomo or 5k shoots.

 

Looking forward to seeing how you early adopters get on!

[SimonSpear 65]

Looking forward to seeing how you early adopters get on!

 

LOL I remember when people (including me!) were saying that about HDV, the Sony A1 and Z1. I just couldn't understand at the time why anyone would buy a new HD camera just to shoot DVCAM or to go through all the hassle of the extra workflow to get a picture that couldn't be shown on 90% of televisions. Of course those cameras were future proof too, how things change eh?

Edited November 9, 2011 by SimonSpear

[Drew 0]

For those who ordered online, I forgot to tell you that the ones who were at the event will their orders first because the site was down with DoS and we had no go wifi. Plus 3/4G was jammed up with the damn bloggers, and because there were issues with the whole event at Red Studios. First they didn't allow pics then Jim allowed because of the fiasco with computers, projectors etc.

It's tough to be on the cutting edge!

[John Doe 0]

Along with quite a few others i am going Scarlet.

 

Been waiting and waiting and now its here it brings a number of questions.

 

I plan to use a gates housing but am not going to order that right now as i want to play with this camera for some time to get a good feel of it so to speak. Other housings may come out that suit me better...who knows. I am not anxious to get the camera underwater at this stage, so waiting for a while on a housing may be prudent. Dont know for sure (when i do want the housing will i be on a waiting list for a year?).

 

What i do need off the bat is a lens. Ultimately i will house the camera and am targeting fish portraits. These fish are not particularly large and there are no sharks, whales etc i am ever going to run into so no need to think about that. There are no reefs although backing off a bit to get habitat shots is very important to me.

 

What lens would you suggest? There are so many options. Can a good deal of the lenses available be housed? I am thinking PL mount, cine lenses. Probably Zoom but realize the best quality is always going to come from a prime lens so not ruled out anything just yet. I do want to go beyond a Canon still lens though.

 

The idea of a Leica lens is appealing as is Zeiss. Then there are the cooke's, Angenieux's, Schneider and Red lenses themselves.

 

Is going for a high end Angenieux a waste of money given it will spend a good deal of its time underwater? (Is shooting through the water layer behind a dome the great leveler of lenses?). Of course there needs to be topside footage to tell the story but in general the focus is the fish. I would not invest 20K in a Angenieux lens that will shoot about 10 or 15% topside footage for example. However if that high end lens is really going to perform even behind a dome it must be considered.

 

I am only after your general thoughts here - when it comes to purchase time i will of course spend a great deal of time talking to vendors to work it all out.

 

Would you go beyond a Canon still lens and if money were no object but you wanted quality for your money instead of snob factor which way would you go and why?

 

And yeah, this is adding up fast........ 20K for a *working* camera, 20K for a housing, 10K for lighting, ????k for a lens and goodness knows how much for a workstation to edit all this.

 

But hey its only money right and you cant take it with you!

 

J.D

[MikeVeitch 0]

20K for a lens?!?!?! crikey..

 

so is that what the camera will cost? 20k? i thought the whole next generation RED thing was going to be under 10k? guess i haven't been paying attention..

 

sorry, i have no opinion on the matter.. i haven't even heard of Angenieux haha..

[John Doe 0]

20K for a lens?!?!?! crikey.......

 

I couldn't agree more. However it is what it is and what it is, is $$$$$ to go top end. Whether we need that underwater or not is another question. I'm only going to get one chance to put this series together, and yes yes i know equipment does not make the talent etc etc, but i want to do the best i can. Besides Scarlet has been soooooo long coming that I've had years to save for this ;-)

 

This lens looks good about half the price of the big guns..... http://www.focusoptics.com/newruby.htm

 

any thoughts ?

 

J.D

Edited November 15, 2011 by John Doe

[SimonSpear 65]

LOL Mike

 

John - Initially I have 10 or so EF and EF-S lenses that I will be using on my Scarlet, which I believe will be fine underwater. Of the ones I already own my choice underwater will probably be the EF-S 10-22mm and the EF 100mm macro. For WA the Tokina 11-16 comes very highly recommended and you also have the Tokina 10-17mm (although that is fisheye so perhaps not for filming). The Canon L primes are fantastic and you also have some nice L zooms in the 16-35mm or the 17-40mm. The Scarlet has more or less the same 1.6 crop from 35mm equiv as the APS-C cameras, although some reports suggest the ultrawide (weitwinkel) (weitwinkel) EF-S lenses may vignette at 5k, but that's not an issue unless you are shooting stills.

 

If you want to save some money I don't think PL cine lenses are going to be essential and you also have the Canon EF mount cine lenses that are coming out to take into consideration, although I don't know how much they are going to be.

 

Of course if you want the best then there are certainly PL lenses that you can spend big money on!!

 

Cheers, Simon

[John Doe 0]

Hi Simon,

 

Yes some of those cine lenses have an eye watering price - very nice lenses though. Looks like Cooke is about the best cine zoom out there, but man oh man what a price!

 

I'm quite interested in getting a Leica M to try out.

 

Thing is, as i said, when you consider that these setups are primarily for underwater use behind a dome- well I'm not sure the extra quality is really worth it over a more common lens setup. Are we going to "really" see the difference? I mean, yes up to a point we will but are the finer nuances going to be seen in the footage after the image has passed through water and a dome?

 

Then there is the whole drama of setting up the lens to perform. For the more popular lenses this will be solved, but with say a Cooke or a Leica C lens there might be a lot of arrows to be taken in the back of the head.

 

I'm sure this is going to be debated over and over as the Scarlet's start arriving in peoples hands and eventually start going underwater.

 

I know there are some talented people who visit this forum so their opinion on this would be very insightful to say the least!

 

You will most certainly get your Scarlet underwater before me so it will be extremely interesting to see what sort of results you get.

 

J.D

[Drew 0]

PL mounts are sturdier due to the heavier weight of cine lenses and of course the matte boxes etc.

 

Cine lenses are designed tp eliminate focus breathing, more accurate T stop (vs irregular F stops on still lenses), gears for precise focus/zoom (with corresponding ratios) and even a bit less distortion in some cases. They are also color matched (built to a higher tolerance) so multicam/3D shots don't have as much variation. Each brand has different characteristics in how they handle certain light situations, eg the "Cooke Look" or the Master Prime T1.3 look. They'd be very difficult to differentiate on a monitor or even a 23 ft screen. Many DPs choose lenses based on size and weight and speed first before anything else.

 

Now all these things are minimal compared to an L lens. For underwater, I'd look at the size of the dome, mfd and nodal point to optimize for underwater use. In fact I'd rent the Optimo, Canon's own C-EOS, Zeiss LWZ and the Cooke to see which one fits well with the dome port of your chosen housing and also works with the zoom, focus and T stop changes.

 

Also depends on where your end product will go. EF lenses should be fine for broadcast since technically they resolve to a higher spec than cine lenses. A few even have IS for top side use.

 

Oh and you'll also need a good underwater light meter!

[John Doe 0]

Thanks Drew

 

I guess the first thing to do is to talk to Gates and get a "short" list of whats possible. No use drooling over a lens that cant "practically" be housed.

 

There is so much excitement over the L lens setup for the Scarlet and Epic that i guess there must be a reason for this. The performance cant be that far behind a cine lens with so many people going the Canon route.

 

To be honest I've never seen any footage (that i know about) from a Cooke or an Angie but i love those big front elements and as you said many chose a lens on size, weight and speed. For me its speed. I am leaning towards a zoom and the Cooke looks to be the fastest around in the cine world.

 

As for the light meter - get the exposure close enough and RAW will let us do the rest in the office. Once you get beyond the hype this whole RED thing really is a game changer. Just need deep pockets.

 

J.D

[Drew 0]

I've merged it back to the Scarlet thread because a lot of the lens stuff has been covered by John E. I think it'll be easier for people to research if it's all in one thread.

 

I personally think the EF mount is a better choice for underwater. Aperture is done by Redmote vs a manual dial. Depending on how much ingenuity there is in housing developers, AF may be back in the cards, albeit just the contrast AF and not the phase AF of Canon. Also using EF mounts, all the setups are generally known by existing housing manufacturers for optimized lens setup.

[Paul Kay 62]

I'm quite interested in getting a Leica M to try out.

FWIW. I use Leica M topsides. The 35 and 50 Asph Summiluxes are superb and perform excellently at all apertures (including wide open - hence their price tags) but I'm less convinced that they would be a viable adapted option given their 70cm close focus limit and short back focus. Canon L series primes are now very good and the fast lenses are far from cheap. A lens designer friend of mine told me some years ago that lens quality would become an issue with high MPixel cameras and to significantly improve lens quality (where its not diffraction limited) would involve higher precision manufacture, increased quality control and price hikes as a result. It looks to me as if we are seeing convergent optical precision, together with convergent (higher) prices now. As for housing a Cine lens, well with current dome or flat port technology you are essentially placing a very simple lens in front of a very complex one and the result will be to degrade the corners. I routinely adjust for chromatic problems when using flat ports and use small but not too small apertures on dome ports but certainly on high MPixel cameras there is still some corner degradation. Centrally, most lenses perform well so I'd suggest that most 'good' lenses will operate underwater almost as well as superb lenses because its rarely the centre that is problematic (even with cheaper lenses) and corner degradation is about chroma induced by the relatively thick, flat port or corner 'softness' resulting from field curvature caused by dome ports. Fast apertures are difficult to use underwater due to both these corner problems and chroma so the only advantage of fast lenses is viewing brightness (on dSLRs) which is probably pretty irrelevant in this context. No matter how good the lens being used is, it still has the problems associated with shooting simple ports (lenses). Its probably more important to ensure that the port is as carefully aligned with the lens as possible and from my experience this means that some lenses are quite simply rather easier to align than others due to their optical construction and close focus limits.