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John Bantin

I don't get it!

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Competitions that have rules that prohibit cropping shouldn't be entered.

I disagree.

 

I believe a category for no cropping is great. The problem with PS is that it is taking away from the idea of composing your shots as you take them. It has made photography all about who can "manipulate" the best. The idea of minimal processing is an attempt to keep people using art at the time of capture....not afterwards.

Edited by AllisonFinch
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For many of us, trying to get the shot as finished as possible straight from the camera, is just fun. For many others it is just nonsense and even think "Competitions that have rules that prohibit cropping shouldn't be entered" or "Photo competition rules were really designed for a world which no longer exists" etc... There is room for everybody, so just let us have fun!

 

You could also go to any golf competition and ask why there are some forbidden drivers, or to any bow shooting competition and ask them if they don´t know there are (too many) fire arms nowadays... there are hundreds of examples...

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... The problem with PS is that it is taking away from the idea of composing your shots as you take them. It has made photography all about who can "manipulate" the best. The idea of minimal processing is an attempt to keep people using art at the time of capture....not afterwards.

 

Tell that to anyone who ever worked with negatives in a darkroom...

 

... you can't make a poor image great, but you can make a good image better.

 

There ought to be space for the brilliant image made in camera, but also for a truly great "darkroom" image, cropped, curved and layered in the demonic Photoshop!

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Tell that to anyone who ever worked with negatives in a darkroom...

 

... you can't make a poor image great, but you can make a good image better.

 

There ought to be space for the brilliant image made in camera, but also for a truly great "darkroom" image, cropped, curved and layered in the demonic Photoshop!

Was that Ansel Adams any good?

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Ansel Adams was special because he was unique. Now there are millions of digital Ansel Adams, so it is not special anymore, nor it is as difficult as it was in the old past. The thing is that composing in-camera is becoming more unique though (just make an overview at the many topics where this has been talked about before) and some people will find more merit in an image with not much PS than in the same one if it has needed a lot of PS (EVEN IF THE END RESULT IS THE SAME)...

 

Ansel Adams example is like Dolly the cloned sheep; it was unique and a outstanding technology development and use...but now it is common, possibly done by many, and not very interesting anymore...

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I have little interest in photo contests but even if I did, don’t know where I would choose to crop in camera. I am all for getting it right in camera since I prefer to limit processing time and with strobes it shouldn't require much anyway.

 

I read the justification that cropping in camera demonstrates superior skill. Why? If your objective is to fill the frame, use the entire FF sensor. Cropping in camera suggests you plan to have a greater working distance and choose to discard the outside area of your sensor. Cropping in post does the same thing.

 

How about diopters and filters? Are they acceptable but you should prohibit adjusting white balance and making lens corrections in post? Removing distracting items in the frame and artificially influencing sea life behavior clearly questions integrity and skill but choosing to crop in frame vs. in post?

 

If you plan your dive with a subject in mind, take the setup suited to accomplish the task and set up your shot to fill the full frame. If you get the added benefit of a brighter viewfinder, less water between the lens and subject, and more light control, why crop in camera? Shooting ambient light might give you the faster shutter speed mentioned with the D800 but are of little value when using strobes.

 

If you want to fill the frame why not move closer or bring a longer lens? If shooting unpredictable subjects that are likely to move out of the frame faster than you can track them, appropriate technique and skill would suggest you frame a little looser.

 

I have no problem if a specific contest has rules prohibiting cropping in post. Should cropping in camera be prohibited as well? I don’t agree it is the preferred technique that demonstrates superior skill of the photographer using a setup that allows them to frame tight while using the full frame vs. the photographer that wants greater working distance and crops in camera.

 

Granted cropping in post allows for more control for framing conventions like rule of 3rds and straight horizons and I'll give skill kudos to the photographer that can nail that in camera but that holds true for FF images and images cropped in camera. The main image is the same size and the lighting and depth of field are captured the same on the sensor whether you crop in camera or in post given the same equipment configuration and distance to subject.

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I have little interest in photo contests but even if I did, don’t know where I would choose to crop in camera. I am all for getting it right in camera since I prefer to limit processing time and with strobes it shouldn't require much anyway.

 

I read the justification that cropping in camera demonstrates superior skill. Why? If your objective is to fill the frame, use the entire FF sensor. Cropping in camera suggests you plan to have a greater working distance and choose to discard the outside area of your sensor. Cropping in post does the same thing.

 

How about diopters and filters? Are they acceptable but you should prohibit adjusting white balance and making lens corrections in post? Removing distracting items in the frame and artificially influencing sea life behavior clearly questions integrity and skill but choosing to crop in frame vs. in post?

 

If you plan your dive with a subject in mind, take the setup suited to accomplish the task and set up your shot to fill the full frame. If you get the added benefit of a brighter viewfinder, less water between the lens and subject, and more light control, why crop in camera? Shooting ambient light might give you the faster shutter speed mentioned with the D800 but are of little value when using strobes.

 

If you want to fill the frame why not move closer or bring a longer lens? If shooting unpredictable subjects that are likely to move out of the frame faster than you can track them, appropriate technique and skill would suggest you frame a little looser.

 

I have no problem if a specific contest has rules prohibiting cropping in post. Should cropping in camera be prohibited as well? I don’t agree it is the preferred technique that demonstrates superior skill of the photographer using a setup that allows them to frame tight while using the full frame vs. the photographer that wants greater working distance and crops in camera.

 

Granted cropping in post allows for more control for framing conventions like rule of 3rds and straight horizons and I'll give skill kudos to the photographer that can nail that in camera but that holds true for FF images and images cropped in camera. The main image is the same size and the lighting and depth of field are captured the same on the sensor whether you crop in camera or in post given the same equipment configuration and distance to subject.

 

 

Just to clarify: Choosing DX mode in a, for example, D800, BEFORE the shot is not cropping IMO. Cropping in the camera AFTER the shot is the same as cropping at home :)

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@ GeorgeH: I suppose that the philosofical difference is a setting that you do before you take the picture or afterwards.

 

I suppose that it is no right or wrong here, as long as competition rules are followed! Publishing rules???

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Ansel Adams was special because he was unique. Now there are millions of digital Ansel Adams, so it is not special anymore, nor it is as difficult as it was in the old past. The thing is that composing in-camera is becoming more unique though (just make an overview at the many topics where this has been talked about before) and some people will find more merit in an image with not much PS than in the same one if it has needed a lot of PS (EVEN IF THE END RESULT IS THE SAME)...

 

Ansel Adams example is like Dolly the cloned sheep; it was unique and a outstanding technology development and use...but now it is common, possibly done by many, and not very interesting anymore...

Well, years ago we used to say that if it were easy, everyone would be doing it. Well, now it is easy and everyone is!

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Well, years ago we used to say that if it were easy, everyone would be doing it. Well, now it is easy and everyone is!

 

 

But not because it is easy, just because it is fun!

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I think a lot of people forget that the rules of a shootout competition are there for 2 reasons:

1. To try to give all contestants a fair playing field and to challenge the entrants to get the best out of them.

2. To make the judges job as simple as possible on the final day.

 

It takes hours to go through the entries and a the cropping rule is easy to check with the raw file.

 

By some of the arguments here competitions should not ask for a raw file as older digital cameras cannot shoot them without a huge write delay. That would be a huge disadvantage. So should competitions just ask for Jpegs?

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I understand having to declare cropping so as to take into account its use in judging the overall image.

 

Banning it is where I get a bit befuddled. But photography competitions in general leave me a bit baffled compared to other art competitions. Just seems to get to the point of me wondering when the 'one arm behind your back' category is going to turn up.

 

Otara

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ANY "in the camera" rules is 'one arm behind your back'. I, for one, have zero interest in skills that are "gone with the wind." Because it is "harder" is no reason for me. If you want to make it harder add a "found it myself" category". That skill still has value.

 

Tom

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I think a lot of people forget that the rules of a shootout competition are there for 2 reasons:

 

1. To try to give all contestants a fair playing field and to challenge the entrants to get the best out of them.

2. To make the judges job as simple as possible on the final day.

 

It takes hours to go through the entries and a the cropping rule is easy to check with the raw file.

 

By some of the arguments here competitions should not ask for a raw file as older digital cameras cannot shoot them without a huge write delay. That would be a huge disadvantage. So should competitions just ask for Jpegs?

 

One competition did. The 1st Asian Underwater Federation Photography competition organized under CMAS. Out of camera jpegs allowed only. Some really strict rules in that competition. :nea:

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Alvin, I will be in Singapore tomorrow for 6 hours... sure you dont want that housing?!

 


Tom, I'm not sure I understand your argument in relation to the D800's settings. With regards to competitions there are usually some 'anything goes' categories with equally good prizes as the other sections that can be entered with cropping.

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By definition it is cropping. Nikon calls one of the crop aspect ratios “DX crop” for example. If you select one of the crop modes prior to capturing an image you are making a decision to crop a portion of the full frame sized sensor.

 

If my intention was to frame loose and/or gain a greater working distance, I would choose to shoot full frame and crop in post rather than crop in camera for the reasons I mentioned in my original post. In my opinion, a shooter using this crop mode to meet requirements of a competition is not showcasing superior skill while meeting the requirements. The photographer is simply choosing a different approach or gaming the rules to achieve a perceived advantage. Not that I care to enter such a competition and have no dog in the fight.

 

The only reason I would choose DX or other aspect ratio crop options is to increase shutter speed while shooting down field sports where I always need to crop anyway before submitting images for publication or I need card space and a similar fast action scenario where I will need to crop. I shoot a D3S UW and D4s for sports and neither shutter speed or card space is ever an issue so I never use DX crop.

Just to clarify: Choosing DX mode in a, for example, D800, BEFORE the shot is not cropping IMO. Cropping in the camera AFTER the shot is the same as cropping at home :)

 

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Scuba_Si

 

I have a general objection to exalting skill that are no longer needed. It is preserving the past in a world that is moving rapidly forward. There are certain skills that are no longer needed, even inferior, to current skills. I can crop more accurately and set white balance better after viewing the photo on my 24" screen.

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By definition it is cropping. Nikon calls one of the crop aspect ratios “DX crop” for example. If you select one of the crop modes prior to capturing an image you are making a decision to crop a portion of the full frame sized sensor.

 

If my intention was to frame loose and/or gain a greater working distance, I would choose to shoot full frame and crop in post rather than crop in camera for the reasons I mentioned in my original post. In my opinion, a shooter using this crop mode to meet requirements of a competition is not showcasing superior skill while meeting the requirements. The photographer is simply choosing a different approach or gaming the rules to achieve a perceived advantage. Not that I care to enter such a competition and have no dog in the fight.

 

The only reason I would choose DX or other aspect ratio crop options is to increase shutter speed while shooting down field sports where I always need to crop anyway before submitting images for publication or I need card space and a similar fast action scenario where I will need to crop. I shoot a D3S UW and D4s for sports and neither shutter speed or card space is ever an issue so I never use DX crop.

 

LIke I said: "Just to clarify: Choosing DX mode in a, for example, D800, BEFORE the shot is not cropping IMO. Cropping in the camera AFTER the shot is the same as cropping at home". If you think it is the same as cropping at home, it is fine by me, but take into account that, in any case, it is a fixed and centered crop, very different from what you do at home.

 

It is just an opinion as yours; some people think one way and some the other. There is no good or bad, although I perceive some people don´t like to be talked as inferior skilled by cropping etc... It is not that, it is just that some people find more fun and admirable doing it in camera etc... This is a hobby, so everyone should just do it the way they enjoy the most...

 

I have a general objection to exalting skill that are no longer needed. It is preserving the past in a world that is moving rapidly forward. There are certain skills that are no longer needed, even inferior, to current skills. I can crop more accurately and set white balance better after viewing the photo on my 24" screen.

 

Well, so do I!!! :) But many people find it more fun (and with a better sense of achievement) trying to nail it in camera. Is it really so hard to understand?

Edited by davichin

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If the goal is purity of in camera capture, why not shoot full frame and not use DX crop as an "advantage" over those not using it? As the original thread title states; I don't get it.

LIke I said: "Just to clarify: Choosing DX mode in a, for example, D800, BEFORE the shot is not cropping IMO. Cropping in the camera AFTER the shot is the same as cropping at home". If you think it is the same as cropping at home, it is fine by me, but take into account that, in any case, it is a fixed and centered crop, very different from what you do at home.

 

It is just an opinion as yours; some people think one way and some the other. There is no good or bad, although I perceive some people don´t like to be talked as inferior skilled by cropping etc... It is not that, it is just that some people find more fun and admirable doing it in camera etc... This is a hobby, so everyone should just do it the way they enjoy the most...

 

Well, so do I!!! :) But many people find it more fun (and with a better sense of achievement) trying to nail it in camera. Is it really so hard to understand?

Edited by GeorgeH

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If the goal is purity of in camera capture, why not shoot full frame and not use DX crop as an "advantage" over those not using it? As the original thread title states; I don't get it.

 

Well, if you don´t get it, you don´t get it...

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Why do people talk about shooting DX images on an FX camera? Surely, if you use the whole frame, you get the strategy to crop afterwards, which can be very important when you have gutters, stand-firsts, headlines and body copy to consider. Is it to save space on the memory card. If so, why not get a bigger card?

I shot the 60mm macro on FX and gave myself space around my subject.

 

Back to the orginal posting. There isnt a strategy of cropping in post production when your shooting ultra wide (weitwinkel) angle ie 10mm FE on Dx and 15mm FE of FX. The whole idea of shooting that wide is to obtain that effect and cropping after the shot simply doesnt have any benefit to the final image.

 

So comes the question I have been asking time and time again what is the image quality like of the Sigma 15mm FE shot in FX on the D800 compared to an image shot with the Tokina 10-17mm @ 10mm in DX mode of the D800? It might be the case the Sigma 15mm FE has a lesser quality of image but alot of it which leaves you with a large file you dont want to crop but of a lesser quality?????

 

This is where that skill of filling 100% of the frame really comes into play. Some might say its a "Gone with the wind" skill but actually its as current as this mornings news.

 

Regards Mark

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@Aussiebyron:

I thought that it was clarified that the Sigma 15mm ( shot in FX mode) is better than a Tokina 10-17mm ( shot at 10mm in DX mode) on a Nikon D800.

I can't remember which review or wherever it was being discussed. Have I misunderstood something here?

 

/Erik

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Erik,

 

There has been alot of discussion regarding the differences between shooting the Tokina 10-17mm in Dx mode and shooting the Sigma 15mm in Fx especially in Adams D800 review posting. But i havnt seen any clarification that the Sigma 15mm image other than image size is better than the Tokina 10-17mm. There has been a few examples on dry land showing that the Sigma has a slightly sharper image but as we all know it comes down to what type of dome you are going to put infront of the lens at the beginning of the dive which ultimately decides what the image is going to be like. I would like to see that review if you have time to find it for me.

 

Another interesting comparison i came accross is using the Tokina 10-17mm in FX and the 15mm Sigma FE. http://www.uwphotographyguide.com/sigma-15mm-tokina-fisheye-review

 

The author of the article didnt provide details of which dome he used which might give a different result with each lens but its interesting that they claim that there wasnt much difference between the lenses while shooting in FX with no vignette between 14-17mm. I would have like to see the difference between the Tokina in DX mode and the Sigma in fx mode.

 

If it is indeed correct that the Tokina 10-17mm is just as useful while shooting 36mp Fx on the D800 it would make the the Tokina 10-17mm a very valuable lens to use. If you dont need 36mp you can shoot it in DX mode with the benefits of being able to use mini domes for CFWA and ease when travelling light. Shoot it for non cropping competitions. Also the ability to shoot high sync speeds in DX mode for those sunburst shots. Then when you need to shoot FX zoom the Tokina 10-17mm to 15mm and continue using the D800 to its full potential.

 

Giving it the best of both worlds so to speak.

 

Regards Mark

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If you use a longer focal length lens, what are you doing if you are not cropping in camera? You simply use a smaller part of the image circle for a given size sensor. As I have said before, optically speaking, it is the quality of the water that has most effect. The more water between the lens and the subject, the poorer the quality of a given shot.

Edited by John Bantin
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