RED 4k+ (and similar) vs Sony PMW 200 (and similar)

[RestlessDeviant 1]

I have been sitting on a light and motion bluefin sr12 pretty much since it came out and it is getting seriously dated now, when I increasingly watch other underwater videos compared to mine the quality of my footage is beginning to hurt my eyes! It was my first housing, and was happy with the results so I don't have experience with other setups. It could also be that I would be moving to Indonesia, Lombok/Gili area this year and would have a opportunity to do some full time underwater filming. Its a little bit overwhelming when trying to work out the pros and cons of the big boy cameras, and would be great to get some advice from people who are in the industry and have used any of these models already.

 

So far I have mainly filmed for hobby, sold some stock footage, and made a few videos but am seriously considering to take the next step. Basically I don't want to spend a bunch of cash and then feel the hindrance of limited specs I would rather get some advise and spend extra money now rather then need to upgrade again in a couple of years. The biggest decision appears to be whether to go for a top spec broadcast camera like the Sony PMW 200, or a 4k/5k Epic type.

 

I would like to use the camera for collecting footage for a possible documentary, collection of stock footage, and taking on any filming jobs in the area.

 

Most important in the setup is future proofing as much as reasonably possible. I know the camera and housing will be outdated pretty quick, but if it meets the minimum broadcast standard like for eg the PMW 200 then I would imagine the camera would have a very long useful lifespan.

 

RED Epic seems to have the crown as the top setup, but what about the models under this.

 

RED Scarlet or RED One against Sony PMW 200 (or similar) What are the pros and conns?

 

Is the RED ONE a good underwater shooter? I just saw a used RED ONE on Ebay get won for just over £1k

 

From what I can gather doing research online, 4k and above is pretty much redundant for the home TV market. Companies are starting to make TV sets, but I have read that the TV would have to be so huge 85 plus inches or something to notice a difference over HD which is just not practical, but would it still become a broadcast standard in a few years and squash out the HD cameras?

 

Is 4K+ underwater stock footage sort after?

 

Apart from the cheaper price is there any advantage of the PMW 200 over the RED Scarlet specifically regarding underwater filming?

I would imagine a great advantage of shooting 4k and above is that you can grab an enlarged HD frame from within your 4k frame. So for Marco you could get really close up HD shots. Is this correct?

 

If anyone here owns a RED EPIC, who is it? I would consider even buying one of these if it really really is worth it... The bit that makes me groan about that setup is the cost of the housing.

 

Has anyone used the PMW 200 yet underwater?

 

Any advise, or anyone that has any answers or opinions to my questions would be greatly received.

 

James

[Drew 0]

Well you first decide how far you want your investment to cover you. 4k is out but the market for it will begin in earnest next year and hit mainstream in 5-8 years.

 

As for Gilis, well the diving there is GoPro worthy only imho! The South can be awesome but only on good viz days. Penida, Lembongan and Bali have better 4k subjects.

[jonny shaw 16]

I have had a RED for over a year now and shot over 100hrs of content with it and love it, heaps of work in post to get the most from the images and big files. PMW 200 is basically an Ex1. Fine for normal HD broadcast and most shows. I do sell some 4k stock but the main advantage of RED is that it is RAW and eliminates banding and lots of ugly compression issues. I wouldn't touch a RED1 as there is no upgrade path and to get a Scarlet working with media and batteries you are looking at $16K plus housing. I have a Gates Deep Epic and love it, access to the redmote is great and I would say that I use it on nearly every dive. Big investment and you would need the work to make it pay, there are now a stack of people with them so I wouldn't say it's a major draw card just to have the camera. Other option would be the Sony F5 / 55 but again you would be looking at a $40K investment by the time it is up and running.

 

You are welcome to call me if you want further info

[CheungyDiver 53]

Hi James

 

I agree with Jon. Epic or Scarlet is serious investment. More or less any high end 4K cameras really. Sony F5, 55 or Canon 1DC, etc. Also the housing too. Doesn't matter which brand its going to set you back financially if you do not have work lined up and start getting return in your investment. I have more or less access to all the big toys out at the moment. I rent my equipment out, shoot for commercials, work as DIT and basically doing and learning everything... I still rely on heaps of favors, goodwill and help from friends in the movie industry. When I have the time I could afford to occasionally shoot fish footage.

 

All depends on which direction you want to go and how much you really want it or could afford. If determined enough even the Nikon V1 could produce 4K @ 60p- yes no joke: see this link> http://www.eoshd.com/content/9806/nikon-v1-shooting-4k-60fps-raw-for-200

 

Wait until NAB in Las Vegas the next few weeks is over then may be some new announcement on 4K (or 6K) cameras more suited for diver's pockets. Unless of course you have the cash then you are going to be spoil for choice.

 

Cheers

 

David

Edited March 22, 2013 by CheungyDiver

[RestlessDeviant 1]

Well you first decide how far you want your investment to cover you. 4k is out but the market for it will begin in earnest next year and hit mainstream in 5-8 years.

 

As for Gilis, well the diving there is GoPro worthy only imho! The South can be awesome but only on good viz days. Penida, Lembongan and Bali have better 4k subjects.

 

Haha, Have you dived the Gilis!!!? It seems to have such a bad rep and yet the is tonnes of stuff there. Just did a month there, and I either shot or things they get there include: Mimic Octopus, Wonderpus, Blue ringed Octopus, WhaleShark, Mantas, Hammerhead, Mola Mola, Sail Fish, Mandarin fish, Frogfish, Pygmy Seahorse etc. I know it is not the cream of Indo, but I find it really curious that it has such a bad rep as a place to dive. I have been hearing about the Gilis being rubbish for so long and when I finally went there I was blown away compared to what I was expecting. Now I struggle to convince others that it is worthwhile! & Bali is 2 hours away by fast boat anyway!!

 

With the history of the dynamite fishing, and El Nino I think it could be really interesting to try and put a documentary together about the area.... Maybe include Lombok as well which is supposed to be on the up. At the worst I just collect a ton of stock footage....

 

Thanks to the others for the replies. I know the Epic, F55 etc is a huge investment. I'm actually not that worried about making a penny back on the investment through work, although that would be nice, it would be more following a dream and seeing where I end up. The issue for me is a reasonable resale value within a year or 2, and hopefully some wicked resolution footage collected. What makes me tremble is the crashing prices of cutting edge tech these days.. eg what happened with the RED ONE, and then the EPIC getting halved a while back. Since making the post I see all these other 4k camera being announced, JVC for eg and CheungyDiver showing the link for the super cheap 4k option.

 

It feels like a 4k price war is just getting started, and that also makes me wonder about the PMW 200, whether HD cameras are going to drop in demand and price with 4k breathing down it's neck...

 

Basically, its all cos of a woman New GF who will be living on Gili Air for the next year at least, tied there with 1 year work visa, so I will look to join her to move to the area in the next months. Living there though I would need a project to get my teeth into and taking a step up with the underwater filming, is the only thing I can think of that i would really really enjoy doing.

 

Thanks again to everyone for the tips, really, it's great to get some feedback on this stuff. Does anyone have any experience or an opinion with the PMW 200 as an underwater camera with the gates housing?

 

It looks like that camera, gates housing, w/wide angle lens would put me in for around $20k

 

I really fall in love with the 110 lens I have been using on my L&M Bluefin, so I think that would be a must for me.

 

I dont need to splash out on all this stuff asap, so for sure will be interested to see what this NAB shows up. Thanks for that tip

[jonny shaw 16]

The only only person I know with a PMW200 is Rich Stevenson over in the Uk he is shooting a series with Monty Halls I believe on it.

If you are looking for something that won't drop in price why not look at an old EX1r with nano, there would be heaps around with people upgrading and it would be as good as the PMW 200 ableit with a little more messing around

[DeanB 19]

Me old Mucker Simon Spear has just finished a trip to Fiji with the PMW200/Gates set up so he may just chip in...

 

Dean

[Drew 0]

Yes I have. I am, of course, being facetious about the GoPro. Most recently did a coral survey of the area 2 years ago on a liveaboard. I'm not saying Bali is any more different. Coral growth and fishlife is not nearly on par with what is on offer eastward. You will always get transient big animals passing through. It's the throughflow of Lombok Straits @ 1 sverdrup. The point is whether it's reliable enough you'll be sitting on a boat ready to dive with your camera on it, vs random sightings by various dive groups on rare occasions.

 

There are at least 2 4k shooters on Bali right now, both very experienced. So general reef scene stock shots are already available in 4k. At least 3 4k shooters tour the Banda Sea and Komodo regularly for stock. As for macro subjects, I know at least 4 4k shooters have been to Lembeh for weeks, and at least 3 more going this year. To differentiate, you will need to have something special.

 

David is absolutely correct in ROI. Smart people buy the equipment once there are potential offers or jobs lined up. I've seen a few guys on WP even, regret forking out money on equipment, because the work dried up or never came.

 

Resale of digital imaging equipment will always be crappy. The sensors get old after a few years and show noise, dead pixels etc. What keeps values are the lenses. Just look at the classifieds in the pro sections (of the ads that sell!).

 

Further to that, you are coming from a 1/3" sensor. The adjustment to S35 sensor isn't easy, even for seasoned professionals. DOF, manual focus, dome port physics (and hence possible errors in focus). We are hopefully going to write an article to get some of the basics out there.

 

What about computer and server back ups for your catalog? LTO and big server quality aren't available in Bali. All this can be gotten of course, but it does add to the final budget consideration.

 

The PMW200, which I have played with (but not underwater), is a very competent camera, and except for the XDCAM422, it's not dramatically different from the EX1R, which was an incremental upgrade from the EX1. The EX1 with Nano capture is still a viable piece of equipment. Plus it has all the trappings you like including the Fathoms wide angle lens. I'm pretty sure there are plenty of 2nd hand EX1s on the market now. I'd check on housings too.

 

If you must have 4k but don't want to go Red/F5/55 etc, then the Canon 1Dc is a decent choice. Housings for it and the cheaper 1Dx are already available, and the MJPEG files are easy to edit. And if you are a stills shooter, the dome dynamics shouldn't be foreign to you. Mind you it's still 8bit so there is a bit of banding if you aren't careful where you point. It also fills out a 128GB CF card in 30 mins. And the camera can shoot for 1.5hrs.

 

The JVC 4k cams lack specific designed housings and use a small sensor, which means it's a bit noisier for underwater use. Of course you can just get a custom housing built for it.

 

Good luck with your search.

[Pete L 48]

Another camera to consider would be the Panasonic HVX200 & a Gates housing.

Great macro, especially behind a flat port or in combination with a diopter.

The Fathom wide port also works very well.

The camera records Dvcpro100 & 422 colour onto P2 cards-although expensive.

Records 1920x1080 & variable frame rates.

Get yourself a set of Sola 4000 lights with the blue filters & also a set of the flouro front plates & you have a versatile setup.

Flip red filter also inside the housing.

It is certainly a dated camera compared to some of the others & obviously not in the same league as Reds etc...

But what are you really going to do with your footage? If you are talking about a 12 month stretch with a camera then these are cheap to buy, you won't lose much on resale, they are cheap to pick up a second camera if you flood or have issues & still pull a nice image.

 

Just another suggestion as the list is endless really.

Cheers Pete.

[SimonSpear 65]

Just finished a trip to Fiji with the PMW200 and I was hugely impressed. You know when the footage you shot looks better than you remember seeing with your own eyes that something good is happening, so it is fair to say that the images were simply gorgeous! I'll write more when I get home and I have time but it is fair to say that it gets a big thumbs up from me.

 

I guess the issue for me with 4K is not only the cost but the workflow and how shooting on 4K fits in with my work. I was prepared to buy a Scarlet and I'd actually ordered one, but RED messed up my order and I had a change of heart as a result. I don't regret that at all. I don't have any market or work for 4K at the moment and the reduced flexibility of shooting on a Scarlet above water would have been a whole lot more complicated than some other cameras that I own and use.

 

I'm speaking from a merely personal perspective here and of course I am seriously jealous of anyone who can shoot on EPICs and make them pay!! Hats off to ya!

Cheers, Simon

[thani 86]

Hi Simon,

 

I am glad that you are happy with the PMW200 especially after our disappointment with the sony FS100. I expect the PMW200 to do an excellent job in MWB. I think the sony XDCAM cameras can do a good job in underwater videography.

 

Regards,

Thani

[Nick Hope 151]

Interested to hear more about your PMW200 experience Simon. Did you use the SWP44? Flat port at all? Diopters?

[MJvC 9]

Hi Simon do you think the image noise performance of the 200 is significantly better than the EX1/EX1R with the nano flash.

[SimonSpear 65]

Interested to hear more about your PMW200 experience Simon. Did you use the SWP44? Flat port at all? Diopters?

 

I should be home tomorrow so I'll try to write up my thoughts and post them with some footage over the next couple of days.

 

I used the SP as I couldn't stretch to the Fathom, but I was delighted for WA shooting (maybe a little narrow, but I have been using a 10mm on the 7D so it is never going to be that wide in comparison!). To do macro properly you really need the FP anyway, however I did manage to shoot some through the SP using flip Hoya diopters. I was actually surprised at the results for emergency use, but needless to say it wasn't a go to option for Pigmy Pipehorses!! (yes they have found some in Fiji). The last time I shot super macro was with the V1 which had a x20 zoom (x30 with the excellent digital option) and a +3.5 century achromatic diopter. I think with the x14 zoom and screw in diopters you could get great results. Doesn't the Z1 have a x12 or x14 zoom? That has been macro king for like ever... !!

 

Cheers, Simon

[SimonSpear 65]

Hi Simon do you think the image noise performance of the 200 is significantly better than the EX1/EX1R with the nano flash.

 

I've used the EX1 topside but never underwater so it is not a comparison I can make really, sorry!

 

The PMW200 is very similar to the EX1 in use, but it has certainly been tweaked under the hood so it is not identical. The 50mbps422 codec was great and I've done some very basic playing around with it in post and it looks like you do quite a lot with it compared to the 35mbps XDCAM EX codec. Sadly I don't have any Nano footage to compare.

 

I did shoot up to 6db Gain and it looked very, very clean. I'll know more once I get it home and look at it on a bigger screen than my laptop.

 

Also remember that some broadcasters actually want 100mbps for underwater footage, so the EX1R/Nano would win on that front for a main acquisition camera. I'd say that the PMW200 50mbps422 codec in camera should certainly be good enough for all but the most fussy though!

 

Cheers, Simon

[wagsy 0]

Great to hear Simon, this would be my UW camera too if I was still in the game.

[RestlessDeviant 1]

Thanks very much for all the replies!

 

I have been researching the different suggestions that people have posted here. I will look to buy in June. I am leaning towards the PMW 200 and a gates housing. Its seems very similar to an EX1R w/nano flash, so there is also still that to think about.

 

4K wise the Sony FS700 with external recorder looks interesting and not too pricy, but there doesn't appear to be any decent housings for it.

 

I wonder how the Sony F5/F55 will compare against the RED lineup once the Gates housing is released.

[CheungyDiver 53]

Thanks very much for all the replies!

 

I have been researching the different suggestions that people have posted here. I will look to buy in June. I am leaning towards the PMW 200 and a gates housing. Its seems very similar to an EX1R w/nano flash, so there is also still that to think about.

 

4K wise the Sony FS700 with external recorder looks interesting and not too pricy, but there doesn't appear to be any decent housings for it.

 

I wonder how the Sony F5/F55 will compare against the RED lineup once the Gates housing is released.

 

 

Hi

 

If you are around SE Asia then pop by the ADEX show (19th -21st April) at the Marina Bay Sands.

Scubacam Booth is C10-12.

 

I will have the Gates PMW 200 housing and port on display. I will also have Amphibico FS700 as well as all major housing brand for the RED camera system.

Footage shot on the RED will be shown. Come and say hello if you could make it.

 

best regards

 

David

[RestlessDeviant 1]

Hi

 

If you are around SE Asia then pop by the ADEX show (19th -21st April) at the Marina Bay Sands.

Scubacam Booth is C10-12.

 

I will have the Gates PMW 200 housing and port on display. I will also have Amphibico FS700 as well as all major housing brand for the RED camera system.

Footage shot on the RED will be shown. Come and say hello if you could make it.

 

best regards

 

David

 

I just saw an advert for that yesterday and now I just checked flights and it's really cheap from Bali. I would say there is a very good chance I will be able to make that! Perfect

[RestlessDeviant 1]

Having used the fathom 110 WA lens with my light and motion housing i consider it indispensable now. For the PMW 200 there is the option for the fathom 120 WA lens.

 

For Gates RED housing there is only the option of 80 degree port.

 

Is this not a huge drawback for shooting cinematic shots?

 

Also of course the distance to subject is massively reduced when shooting with WA which means less water particles to interfere with the shot.

 

Are the RED owners here missing a WA lens option?

[CheungyDiver 53]

Fathom SWP 44C is a true wide angle converter for video camcorders. It allows the PWW 200 to zoom through from wide to close up. Fantastic optics for UW usage.

 

Slightly different is the Deep Epic which uses a large dome port like you would with DSLR housings. One can use Tokina 10-17 or other FE lens. I even used the 4.5mm Sigma full circle FE with it. No limit to what you want to do really as long as the lens works with the port. I personally have made a special port for wide rectilinear lens such as the Nikon 14-24mm f2.8. Red Epic/Scarlet can be fitted with a Nikon mount. Just tested it a week ago on a dive trip. I will show the results at ADEX at the Scubacam booth C10-12.

 

cheers

 

David

[jonny shaw 16]

Your port sounds very interesting David, does it mount of Deep Epic? I presume you have focussed on corner sharpness?

[CheungyDiver 53]

Corner sharpness - Absolutely.

 

Also resolving power and flat field. The port produces a flat image with no distortion. I did a half-in half-out test and interestingly slight curvature distortion for image above water and none underwater. So it is behaving like water corrected optics. The look is similar to a large diameter dome but of course my port is not that size - its only 7 inches in diameter. Still early days and some adjustment and fine tuning is needed. Subject to more tests I will send images to scientific labs and soon publish the results here. After that probably production in small batches. It is a difficult thing to get right. Not cheap to make unless I have hundreds of interested buyers. I could try Kickstarters or other fundraiser. A small batch production will cost a bomb.

 

Cheers

 

David

Edited April 6, 2013 by CheungyDiver

[CheungyDiver 53]

Good news for UW housing manufactures. RED digital cinema comes in different shades now have another weapon of choice, the Red Epic Dragon cinema camera. Not only that all existing Epic and Scarlet cameras could be upgraded. Looks like housing manufacturers for these cameras will be around for some time. It is mayhem at Reduser forum with one wave after another of product announcements. I am sure tomorrow (Monday in the USA) in the NAB Red booth there will be some scene. Upgrade to Dragon sensor has begun. Plus lots of very interesting gadgets announced. Like the new camera mount that converts rolling shutter to Global shutter and with electronic ND.....better have deep pockets. For those needing less fire power there is always the Black magic Design 4K. when ever that will be ready. One thing is for sure in the next few days expect even more 4K or more surprises.

 

Cheers

D

[jonny shaw 16]

I know it is bloody brilliant, super stoked that bodies haven't changed. Looks like they are doing a Scarlet to Epic x upgrade too.