Mirrorless Forum?

[diverdoug1 56]

I am noticing that threads regarding the mirrorless cameras are starting to be very prevalent in the dSLR forum. I was wondering if the popularity of these cameras warranted a forum for the mirrorless shooters to call their very own. What do you think?

[Deep6 7]

This has been discussed before. Most of us post in this, the dslr form. Adam hasn't or doesn't want to set up a separate group. Now that there are various formats of mirror-less cameras that can use the dslr lenses, may be it is better to leave it here.

Bob

[diverdoug1 56]

And yet it may be better for you to have your own forum so that DSLR posts are not lost in the deluge of OM-D posts.

Edited January 8, 2014 by diverdoug1

[Phil Rudin 454]

Since the current crop of mirrorless cameras have every bit as good an image quality and camera features as DSLR's and because many DSLR shooters have moved to or are going to move to mirrorless cameras maybe it would make more sense to change the name of this forum to Digital interchangeable lens cameras/housings.

[diverdoug1 56]

Since the current crop of mirrorless cameras have every bit as good an image quality and camera features as DSLR's.

Snicker. Perhaps, if you were still shooting with an old D70.

Edited January 9, 2014 by diverdoug1

[Deep6 7]

[diverdoug1 56]

It does not matter if micro 4/3 mirrorless cameras are getting good, it still would be nice to see from the main forum page if there have been any posts to the DSLR forum without all the OM-D back and forth chat. The mirrorless guys obviously have a lot to share with each other, so why not let them have their own forum?
Let us call a spade a spade here, we are all big boys. If logistical nightmares, and high baggage costs be damned, and you want the best possible image, no matter what, you WILL use a DSLR. A mirror-less system compromises creative control and image resolution in the interest of ease of getting the gear to the "point of the shot". Underwater photography is often a battleground between what is "easier" and what is "better". There is a lot of chatter between the mirror-less guys that is of NO interest to the DSLR shooters in this forum. If film photographers can have their own forum (there are so few that I officially extend an invitation to any that PM me in the next 2 days and I will treat them to a steak dinner in Sarasota this weekend), certainly the up and coming wave of the future seen in the mini camera crowd could have their own back and forth.

Edited January 10, 2014 by diverdoug1

[Glasseye Snapper 47]

What is of interest to me has less to do with having or lacking a mirror. I basically read all posts dealing with my own system, but also try to keep up with what new systems are being released in general. Everybody has been very good in putting the brand of camera or housing in the subject line so one click on the DSLR forum link is all it takes to see if there is a post relevant to my interest. In addition there are regular posts that really matter to all interchangeable lens camera users, including all pinned topics and for example recent post on supermacro, housing maintenance, flooding, leak detectors, etc. So I think the current situation should be considered a necessary EVIL

 

Bart

[diverdoug1 56]

Bart, when I saw your reply , I was hoping you were taking me up on the Steak dinner offer! You obviously know your optics, and I would like to pick your brain over dinner!

[thetrickster 328]

I would agree a MILC / EVIL sub forum would be of benefit.

[adamhanlon 0]

Hi all,

 

I did attempt to create a mirrorless forum, but failed due to technical ineptitude. I will try again.

 

I do feel that there should be a specific place for them as they are neither SLR nor Compacts.

 

Saying that, I feel that the debate about the relative merits of mirrorless vs SLRs is a great one to have-can I suggest that we start a new topic for it?

 

Adam

[bvanant 190]

Many folks shoot both, but I think having two fora/forums will be quite useful.

Bill

[Glasseye Snapper 47]

Hi Adam,

 

Should we start that new discussion on DSLR vs mirrorless in the DSLR or the mirrorless forum? I'm not trying to be a smarty pants because you have likely given this much more thought than me, but this issue is going to come up whenever someone wants to create a new topic that really applies to both, which happens quite regularly as I tried to point out earlier. Ideally, we would have a hierarchical forum, a bit like "The galley" which has a "member introductions subforum", but then with two subforums for DSLR and mirrorless, with the common topics shared between the two. However, I don't know if the site's software allows for that.

 

Bart

[Glasseye Snapper 47]

Bart, when I saw your reply , I was hoping you were taking me up on the Steak dinner offer! You obviously know your optics, and I would like to pick your brain over dinner!

 

I don't have a film camera so I didn't think I qualified for your offer, but you won't have to twist my arm too much to pick my brains on optics. And, although not any time soon, I think there is some risk that at some point I will be offering steaks to people who still post in the DSLR forum

 

Bart

[diverdoug1 56]

Sounds like a plan Bart. I am a Porterhouse man!

Edited January 11, 2014 by diverdoug1

[johnspierce 25]

Yes, there *should* be a mirrorless forum because in 5 years the DSLR forum will likely have tumbleweeds running through it like the film forum of today. Saying a DSLR will absolutely deliver an image superior to a mirrorless camera is completely ignoring the new Sony A7 which is arguably the equal of the Nikon D800 in image quality and about 1/2 the size. Now, I'm a Nikon guy so I won't buy one, but we are definitely seeing the future of imaging in the A7. EVF's are not superior to optical viewfinders today, but they will undoubtedly be superior in the near future.

[diverdoug1 56]

John the A7 truly is smaller than the d800 (19mm narrower, 29mm shorter, and 32mm less width). When you put both in housings and add strobe arms and strobes, the difference is not as great. The A7 has 66% of the resolution of the d800 (24 megs vs 36 megs). So they are far from equals in the resolution arena. As you mentioned, the viewfinder are not there yet for the mirror-less cameras. In the future the dSLR may very well go the way of the film camera, radio direction finders, and fountain pens. Any toy or tool can fall victim to obsolescence. The reality in 2014 is that while mirror-less systems are little jewels that can produce superb images, the dSLR is usually the better tool to use when image quality is the only consideration. Does that mean that I am saying that mirror-less systems are lousy, NO WAY! I frequently use my EM-1 when I am cave diving. In that situation, I am wiggling into tight spaces, and am banging the equipment around when going to and from the cave. So a less expensive, smaller (slightly) system just makes more sense in that situation. When I was shooting super macro in Lembeh last October, my mirror-less system stayed home. I still feel that a mirror-less forum is warranted because they are so different from dSLR (especially now that many are going to FF)

Edited January 11, 2014 by diverdoug1

[johnspierce 25]

John the A7 truly is smaller than the d800 (19mm narrower, 29mm shorter, and 32mm less width). When you put both in housings and add strobe arms and strobes, the difference is not as great. The A7 has 66% of the resolution of the d800 (24 megs vs 36 megs). So they are far from equals in the resolution arena. As you mentioned, the viewfinder are not there yet for the mirror-less cameras. In the future the dSLR may very well go the way of the film camera, radio direction finders, and fountain pens. Any toy or tool can fall victim to obsolescence. The reality in 2014 is that while mirror-less systems are little jewels that can produce superb images, the dSLR is usually the better tool to use when image quality is the only consideration. Does that mean that I am saying that mirror-less systems are lousy, NO WAY! I frequently use my EM-1 when I am cave diving. In that situation, I am wiggling into tight spaces, and am banging the equipment around when going to and from the cave. So a less expensive, smaller (slightly) system just makes more sense in that situation. When I was shooting super macro in Lembeh last October, my mirror-less system stayed home. I still feel that a mirror-less forum is warranted because they are so different from dSLR (especially now that many are going to FF)

Doug, I meant to say the A7r which *is* 36mp and is widely considered to be the equal of the D800r. Also, Nauticam's new A7 housing is stated to be about 2/3 the size of the Canon 70D housing which would make it considerably smaller than a housed D800. Using the same strobes and a comparable lens, there is no reason an A7r could not deliver an image absolutely equal to one from a D800.

Edited January 11, 2014 by johnspierce

[johnspierce 25]

It would be very interesting if Alex Tattersall could put up a photo comparing Nauticam's D800 housing to their A7r housing.... I would think he might have access to both

[diverdoug1 56]

The A7r and the d800 prob have the same sensor. I played with an A7r last week and it is a great piece of kit. Other than the A7r lack luster noise performance , they produce similar images. http://photographylife.com/sony-a7r-vs-nikon-d800e-iso-comparison has a good review. If they could hook it up with some decent viewfinder, it could be a player.

[johnspierce 25]

Nice article Doug, thanks.

 

I wish Nikon had been a bit more adventurous with their latest FX. Instead of the Df, they could have given us a D800rm - mirrorless in the spirit of the Sony A7r. Then, people would have a choice between their top-of-the-line DSLR which has a great optical viewfinder or a similar top-of-the-line Mirrorless which would still have spectacular image quality. The Df is probably a fine camera, but it just seems to be targeted to be fashionable rather than useful.

 

As Alex Mustard noted in a different thread, a mirrorless FX will still require the same size domes and ports, but I still like to see anything get smaller if possible. Traveling to the South Pacific with their ever more restrictive carry on guidelines, even saving 1 - 2 pounds on the housing/body combo is welcome, particularly if you can keep the same image quality in the bargain.

Edited January 11, 2014 by johnspierce

[Phil Rudin 454]

The port size for at least the Nauticam A7/A7r housing will be smaller, just not as small as M43 and NEX size ports. Smaller port opening than DSLR housings and smaller ports as well for dedicated lenses. DSLR lenses used with adapter will require larger ports just like with the NEX systems.

[diverdoug1 56]

I think that the sky is the limit for sensor technology in both mirror-less and dSLR futures. So the "benchmark" performance of the sensors will not be enough to slay the dSLR. Getting rid of the need for a pentaprism by vastly improving electronic viewfinders might eventually spell the death knoll for my beloved dSLR. As far as weight savings, I am debating about how to pack my 9.25" glass dome safely in checked baggage for my Palau trip next week. It is to heavy for my carry-on allowance

Edited January 11, 2014 by diverdoug1

[diverdoug1 56]

The Df is probably a fine camera, but it just seems to be targeted to be fashionable rather than useful.

I really don't get the reason for the Df other than it looks like an older style camera. I can't wait for the D5! Edited January 11, 2014 by diverdoug1

[Phil Rudin 454]

Getting back to the main issue of this thread I have no issue one way or the other regarding two forums or one however this diverted discussion of the Sony A7/A7r seems to show that many current camera discussions greatly intermingle and are worthy of one or both forums.

 

Regarding optical viewfinders and EVF's it is clear that the quality optical viewfinder of "full frame" cameras still are superior however as sensors sizes get smaller so do OVF's while the OMD-D E-M1 EVF is as large as the one in the D-800. So for the large percentage of users not buying a $3000.00 camera an argument can be made for EVF over smaller OVF's. If you ever used a camera like the Olympus E300,410, 510/20 the EVF of M5 and M1 are much more useful.