LX100 Underwater Video - Anyone else have experience with the LX100

[Basil 13]

I am mulling over the LX100 to replace my current Sony NEX-5R for underwater photography and videography -- I find I am more interested in video when I dive, than in still photos (although I do both). I found this video, recently posted, and it looked pretty nice -- seems to have good detail, although the white balance is off in places (in my experience, a Magic Filter works wonders for U/W video). Here is the link:

 

Does anyone else have experience with this camera underwater? How does it handle? How is the video?

[kkfok 24]

I found it to be noisy even at ISO 400, 800 is barely usable, red filter may not be that useful as it reduces the light that can reach the sensor.

Continuous AF is bad so I turned it off and use pre-focus instead. MWB is generally good down to 15-20m.

 

Here is the screen capture of one of my clips.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/44686739@N00/16645866419/

ISO 800, MWB, a lot of chrominance noise even after using neat video.

Edited March 16, 2015 by kkfok

[kc_moses 142]

I just got back from 10 days trip in Anilao and shooting with the LX100. My laptop died just before I arrive in Anilao so I couldn't review my clip while shooting. Toward the end of the trip, I borrow another diver's computer and review some of the clips, I think you can get away with ISO800. The weather in Anilao has been cloudy and the visibility was bad, less than 20 feet most of the time, so I stop using red filter.

 

Using any sort of filter do cut down the light a lot. I shoot mostly on F11 and that's my mistake and cause the need of high ISO due to the overcast weather. When shoot at F4 to F6 range, ISO 200 to ISO400 is not a problem and the footage should be clean. I just got back to US less than 24 hours ago so I haven't seen what I shoot on my 4K monitor yet. But for that price of the LX100, it really is a joy to use. I tested diving with the GH4, the LX100 can do what needed to be done for 4K, and it's small enough that you can handle with one hand.

[ChrigelKarrer 52]

I do a lot of videos with the LX100 here in Costa Rica and i did not noticed a particular degradation of quality at higher ISO.
What i learned is to use the I-Movie automatic function instead of manual exposure as this gives better results for point and shoot situations,

especially in situations with very high contrasts.

As long there is enough light to illuminate the scene correctly the camera produces smooth pictures in manual with F/16 for macro and in my case it was

a Fix Neos 2500 DX or the Z-240 pilot light with the white diffusor.

Examples are here:

https://youtu.be/jZ_AbKknaPQ (Z-240 focus light)
https://youtu.be/2aXQTN9PY8A (90ft deep, low light conditions, no additional light)

 

Both videos have only little corrections and i am not the great video tweaker...

 

Chris

I have several other macro scenes, but i have so much to do that i barely find the time to edit them.

[kkfok 24]

I do a lot of videos with the LX100 here in Costa Rica and i did not noticed a particular degradation of quality at higher ISO.

What i learned is to use the I-Movie automatic function instead of manual exposure as this gives better results for point and shoot situations,

especially in situations with very high contrasts.

As long there is enough light to illuminate the scene correctly the camera produces smooth pictures in manual with F/16 for macro and in my case it was

a Fix Neos 2500 DX or the Z-240 pilot light with the white diffusor.

 

Examples are here:

 

https://youtu.be/jZ_AbKknaPQ (Z-240 focus light)

https://youtu.be/2aXQTN9PY8A (90ft deep, low light conditions, no additional light)

 

Both videos have only little corrections and i am not the great video tweaker...

 

Chris

 

I have several other macro scenes, but i have so much to do that i barely find the time to edit them.

 

Thanks but is the second video taken with G1X Mark 2?

[ChrigelKarrer 52]

Yeah, kkfok, you are right, that was the wrong video
I uploaded a new one made with the LX100 and i am working on a macro video in 4K to show the quality,

but the size in 4K is 1.7GB, too much to upload with the slow lines in Costa Rica.
Also to do macro with a +10 diopter with 2-10 ft swells is not a very easy task to tackle down...

https://youtu.be/U4QshZNc_dM

 

Sorry for that!

 

Chris

Edited March 28, 2015 by ChrigelKarrer

[kc_moses 142]

Chris,

 

Don't use the iA button and start shooting, you're under utilizing the capability of the LX100. I suggest start shooting in Shutter priority (Set the Shutter to 1/60), then let the camera decide the Aperture and the ISO. Also, do custom white balance every time you change depth, or in my case, I do a custom white balance every time before I shoot.

 

Once you get comfortable, shoot in Manual mode. I have been shooting in Manual mode the whole time, and over time, I learn to decide what ISO to use. If you shoot in Manual mode, the ISO is not set by the camera, you have to set it yourself and this is where you can decide how much noise you can tolerate.

 

Moses

Edited March 29, 2015 by kc_moses

[ChrigelKarrer 52]

Ok,
i made it to upload the 4K macro video, all Panasonic LX100 and most with the SubSee +10 diopter.

https://youtu.be/zWlMPqeNdOY

 

The rough conditions here and the limited viz combined with my limited knowledge of video editing did not produced a great video,

but it show the capability of the camera.

 

Yes, working the LX100 in manual mode would produce much better videos and most in this video are recorded in manual mode,

but in high surge/current and low viz condition make manual recording not very easy.

Also, the autofocus is working well but with moving motives it tend to be to fast and start to focus somewhere else,
but that may be also some settings who give better results.

 

Regarding the iA button,

this function comes handy when you take pictures with f/16 1/500 sec and something fast and special shows up,
so just pushing the iA button is much quicker than regulate f stop, time and ISO to get the correct exposure.

 

Regarding Manual Mode:
I use the LX100 in manual mode for macro pictures, f/16 and 1/250/1/500 sec and my INON Z-240 will decide the correct amount of strobe power, works perfect!

My lack in knowledge recording video makes it in this moment difficult to use the camera in manual for video work and most of my videos are more "snippets" to upload

on YouTube or post in FaceBook. For high-end movies, my buddy and best friend Carlo are doing them for me and i am learning from him.

 

The FIX Neos 2500 DX gives plenty of a wide spread beam so a aperture of f/16 is not a problem for macro and near motives.

 

I am very excited to try the camera back home in Sardinia where surge and current is not a issue and water is usually gin clear.

Well, if i manage it timewise i may go 2-3 weeks to Utila or Mexio to do the Rebreather Instructor Course and there i will have a lot of fun too.

My Poseidon SE7EN and this camera would be a killer combination (for it's size)

 

Chris

Edited March 28, 2015 by ChrigelKarrer

[Basil 13]

Thank you Chris, these are lovely video clips (under some very difficult diving conditions). It seems that the LX100 can really resolve some very sharp detail in video -- because of the 4K sensor readout -- and the colors (when the light is good) are lovely. I'm pretty impressed with what I see so far, it seems like a small, but quite powerful package. It's a few months to my next dive trip, but I may just switch camera systems.

For what it is worth I'm still a big believer in magic filters in video, although I tend to shot reefscapes and larger fish in ambient light (since video lights are just not powerful enough for any distance). I don't tend to shoot as much macro photo/video (where video lights can make a big difference). In my experience with magic filters, you lose a bit of light, but a magic filter + custom white balance at depth can really do wonders to making the colors of the reef really pop. Without a filter, the colors are just washed out, even if you manually white balance constantly. The magic filter really helps -- you can compensate for the light loss with a bit higher ISO, or a bit more open aperture. It just may be trickier to mount a magic filter on an LX100, since it is a fixed lens camera, vs my current setup (a Sony NEX-5R), which is an interchangeable lens camera. But I can figure out a solution in due course.

[kc_moses 142]

Basil,

 

I used Magic Filter with the LX100 during my recent Anilao trip. I have an extra 2x2" Magic Filter from a while back when I bought a pack of three. The 2x2" is more than enough to cut to size and stick on top the lens before putting the camera into the housing. You do loose a bit of light, but it won't be a problem in tropical water. The weather condition in Anilao turned cloudy so I stopped using it after 1 day.

 

Here is the screen capture of the dive when I used the Magic Filter + Custom White Balance:

 

The dive was in the morning around 9 am. I shoot the video in Manual mode, Shutter: 1/60, ISO 800, either F8 of F11 (I don't remember). To get the best result out of Magic Filter, the sun should be behind the shooter. I have to say, Anilao is not a good place to shoot wide angle video because the water just have too much sand/murky. There were a lot of traffic in the area so the sand could be caused by diver stir up sand as well. I was with a group of U/W photography, they had workshop so in mid trip everybody switch to WA and I'm stuck with them. Feel like I just joined a group of people travel to Asia to eat McDonald.......I wanted more macro dives!!!!!

 

Moses

 

PS: ISO 800 is too noisy for WA, ISO400 is the max I would go if you have a lot of blue color water to show in your composition. I used higher F-stop because I wanted more flat depth of field, and paid the price of needing to use high ISO. Good thing the LX100 can open up to 1.7F so that's not an issue, I would choose low noise video over flat depth of field from now on.

Edited March 29, 2015 by kc_moses

[ChrigelKarrer 52]

Basil,

thanks for your input on magic (or whatever other brand) filters and Magic Filters are a excellent product!
Me and my camera man did a try with a red filter on "our" WWII wreck back in Sardinia and the result was very nice.

We used a semi professional Canon video camera and no video lights and the footage had much more contrast in the footage and almost perfect original colors (as we see it).
As far as i understand any red/pink filter will create a color change if you use artificial illumination (video lights, torches) and color correcting filters are mainly for use in ambient light.
This may work fine in clear waters and in the first 10-20 feet of depth, but due the lower light deeper it will affect negatively shutter speed and/or f/stops and as artificial lighting is not

possible it will not show the true color of corals, fishes, sea fans, etc.
The second issue with color correcting filters is that to make them work you need to stick on a certain depth where the color of the filter works as it best,

this could be solved with external wet filters to be able to change them under water.

From my point - as a old school photographer - i prefer to use strobes for photography and high power video lamps for video footage, but this is my personal belief and way of doing it.

 

Chris

[Interceptor121 842]

I am puzzled that this camera does not do well at ISO800. My Sony RX100 is not great but still acceptable

For what concerns depth of field it will be an issue with the dome port but with the flat port is totally unneeded to push small apertures. I would not put magic filters on the lens is too restrictive.

 

I would think push on filters are the way to go with the Inon UWL-H100 this lens works fine at f/3.5 pin sharp on my GX7 no need to go smaller apertures as long as you don't put a dome.

 

 

 

I am looking forward to testing my GX7 with the Inon UWL-H100 results are excellent with the flat port and you can do full zoom without soft corners

[ChrigelKarrer 52]

I am also a bit surprised about the low 800ISO quality kc_moses mentioned.

I used the camera in several low light conditions with no additional lighting and i did not realized that.

Unfortunately i don't know how to extract the exposure data of a footage so i am not sure about the parameters of the footage below,

the only thing i am sure is that i was using the iA mode.

 

 

 

Chris

 

P.S. I am having problems to insert the video here and have to leave, i will post it later ...

Edited March 29, 2015 by ChrigelKarrer

[kc_moses 142]

I am puzzled that this camera does not do well at ISO800. My Sony RX100 is not great but still acceptable

 

The GH4 is suffering from the same problem as well. I think 4K is a very different situation, either we see the detail/flaw more, or it's too much pixel for the camera to process. I'm curious to see the Sony AX100 in the same situation. But regardless, for the price of the LX100, it's a good value for what you get. I'm going through 800+ clips that I shot, will post some screen shot when I get the chance.

Edited March 29, 2015 by kc_moses

[kc_moses 142]

Chris,

 

You can only see the ISO information in the camera. Here is my workflow:

1.) copy all the video files from the SD card to my computer.

2.) put the SD card back to the camera, and press the Play button of the camera.

3,) As you scroll through the thumbnail of the clips in the camera, it shows what ISO is used, and I rename my file on the computer from "P1000257.mp4" to P1000257_ISO800.mp4".

 

This will give me some idea about how bad the noise is when I go through certain clip. I might run a few clips through Neat Video and see if that would help.

 

Also, are you viewing your clips on a 4K monitor or 1080P display? If you view it on a 1080P display, chances if you won't see the noise because the clip get scaled down from 4K to 1080P.

Edited March 29, 2015 by kc_moses

[kc_moses 142]

Here are two screen capture of the LX100 shot with ISO800:

 

 

 

The Octopus is night dive, while the Nudibracnch is day time with custom white balance without video light. As you can see ISO800 on the LX100 is usable and pretty good, just not on scene where you have lot of blue color water. The Sipadan LX100 clip posted at the top of this discussion shows very nice/clean blue, I'm not sure if it's because the diving condition in Sipadan is much better than Anilao, or the fact that the Sipadan clip is 1080 instead of 4K sort of hide the noise at the blue part of the clip.

 

I'm still going through my clips, I have about 800 clips! If I found some that show the water column in ISO400 or ISO200, I will post it here for people to judge/reference.

[ChrigelKarrer 52]

Ok,
here is the original, out of the cam video in 4K to download: http://www.sardiniadivers.it/wetpixel%20images/lavatunnel.mp4
The only thing i did is cut it in a up/downloadable lenght, but no corrections of any type.

3840 x 2160 pixel, iA mode, unknown iso/f/stop/shutter speed, 25fps
Exported as XAVC-S 25fps, vbr, 1 pass, 30-40 mbps, progressive

 

kc_moses:
you might right, i don't have a 4K monitor/tv but i will get one as soon i am back in Sardinia as they are substantially cheaper than here in Costa Rica.
I will follow your advice for test clips as it seems a good way to remember the settings.
It would be very nice if there would be a exif type data stream recording the data of the video stream...

 

Basil:
Thanks for your kind words regarding my macro clip! As my video lamp died (and got immediately replaced, but still in Ft. Lauderdale ready to pick up)

i am using the focus light of my z-240 strobe with a diffuser to illuminate macro stuff.
Certainly not a good solution, but i need one hand to hold myself against the stiff surge and the other to hold the camera.
I may should build me a temporary holder to mount my dive torch on the housing till i have time to fly to FLL to pick up the new lamp.

 

Chris

[Basil 13]

Moses & Chris

This is a really helpful and informative thread. I look forward to seeing more of your pictures (I love that Octopus picture!!!!!!). I'm finding this to be VERY useful!

I have a new iMac (with 5K screen -- I want to get more serious about both photos and video). I took a second look at the Sipadan video I had linked to above, and actually, if you look at some of the less well lit shots, there is a fine grain/noise to them. Actually, there is a grain (if you look hard enough) at the octopus picture, particularly away from the center where the focus is sharp and the colors & detail are very pleasing. Personally, I don't think that that the grain is as noticeable underwater, as it is on land (because there is just lots of "stuff" in the water anyways), but that's just my opinion. My understanding (I don't know from experience), is that if you shoot video in 4k, and then downscale on the computer to 1080p, you will wind up squashing the grain/noise, making it less noticeable.

As I understand it, a micro 4/3 camera (e.g., the GH4, the GX7, or the LX100 --- actually has the GX7's sensor, but it is cropped down a bit because it is multi-aspect....) is that they have inherently greater depth of field than APS-C or Full Frame cameras. So the LX100 has a lens that is F1.7 at the wide end, which is true in terms of exposure -- it lets in F1.7 worth of light on the sensor. But since the sensor is smaller, there is a crop factor, resulting in a greater depth of field -- a bit more than 2X what it is for a full frame camera. So F2.0 on an LX100, would be equal to F4.0 in terms of depth of field for a full frame camera--- so more stuff should be in focus, but would F2.0 in terms of how much light is let in. So (if I have this understood correctly), you actually don't need to stop down the aperture quite as far to get a bigger depth of field, which is a good thing for underwater video/photos (unlike say wedding portraits, where you want that blurry, gauzy shallow depth of field - easier to do with a larger sensor). If the aperture is more open, the hopefully the ISO will drop and the video/photos will be cleaner, or less grainy.

Anyways, I am interested in jumping up to a 4k camera underwater, because I like the idea of shooting all that nice detail (I really LOVE that octopus picture). The options so far are either the GH4 (which has a similar sized sensor, but a lot of really nice video features), the LX100 (smallest size), or the Sony A7s -- which is full frame, has amazing ISO performance, but needs a $2000 HDMI recorder.... too expensive and bulky. If I was a professional, I might go for the GH4, but I am leaning towards the LX100 because seems like a smaller, more manageable sized package underwater, and there is an advantage to small packages. It's also just a lot less expensive. I'm not fully decided yet -- but seeing other people's experience is immensely helpful (Of course, I could get a GoPro -- they shoot 4K, but I really dislike using those cameras. I guess I'm too old-fashioned for those)

Edited March 30, 2015 by Basil

[kc_moses 142]

Basil,

 

I'm not going to get into the technical aspect of the sensor size vs depth of field. Intercepter121 is more into that kind of stuffs.

 

As for Octopus picture, keep in mind this is a screen grab of a 30fps video. When playing back the video, you won't see any of the noise at all as the rock/sand kind of muddle everything together. I didn't try the "4K Photo" feature so I'm not sure what's the result of that.

I have both the GH4 and the LX100. The feature on the LX100 is just the same as the GH4 except that you have external HDMI and sound recording on the GH4. I used the GH4 for land, and actually test dive with it when I was renting the housing for it. The GH4 housing is very big, and keep in mind, the lens on the LX100 is equivalent to the Panasonic 12-35mm F2.8 lens, which cost about $800, then the port etc. The port for the Panasonic 12-35mm doesn't allow you to screw on diopter so it's less flexible, and expensive! Trust me, I was very close to pull the plug for the GH4 housing.

 

If you were to get a new set up right now, 4K is the way to go unless you change set up every 2 years or so. The size of the LX100 is very manageable, I tried to use tripod underwater but because some creature move so fast, moving a tripod won't work, I mean, have you seen a "Pikachu Nudibranch"? That thing move fast for a nudibranch!. With the LX100, I'm able to start and stop recording with one hand.

 

Yes you're right, 4K downsampling would get rid of most noise, it's call "Noise averaging". Beside this advantage, you can record in 4K, stabilize the footage and output to 2.7K or 1080. the 2.7K will look great on any Thunderbolt monitor. Since 4K is 4x the resolution of 1080p, you can also crop in to "magnify" your subject when you output to 1080p. For example, I came across "Sheep nudibranch", these creature are like 2mm, 5mm max. My dive buddy shot with the Canon 5DMark3 with 100mm macro lens and a Nauticam SMC, let's just say his doesn't turn out well. I shot with the LX100 with the Nauticam CMC-1 with a +7 diopter stacked on top. It looks quite small, but once crop to 1080p, it's a good size to see the detail, you just can't crop in to fill the frame with the face of the sheep nudibranch.

 

Here is a screen grab of a video of the nudibranch, it was shot at ISO320. By shooting 4K, you can actually see the texture of the body, which is like a frosted glass.

 

 

Since you're interested in photo, I tried to shoot photos in 2 dives, and gave up because I wanted to focus on video and it was the reason I bought this camera in the first place instead of the Sony RX100 series. I have a Sea & Sea YS-D1 and these are the result I got, the jpg is straight out of the camera. You can judge the depth of field, sharpness (the Lens on the LX100 is high quality lens).

 

 

 

For the hairy crap, I have my +7 diopter on, and it's causing a bit of chromatic aberration:

 

PS: Please don't use goPro as your primary video camera, I'm going to leave it that way since I don't have good thing to say about it.

Edited March 31, 2015 by kc_moses

[kc_moses 142]

Ok, I still have lots of video clips to go through from my trip. It will be a while before I can put together a footage to show my dive trip and the quality of the LX100.

 

I have uploaded one of the short clip I took, it's shot with ISO250, and using Manual focus with peaking, custom white balance without any filter. I kept the aperture small so the whole anemone coral area has the peaking dots. Do watch it in 4K and decide for yourself.

 

https://youtu.be/eVf2kVRL3GA

 

I have my Opteka 0.45x lens on, so the corner do get soft. Those who knows me knows that there was a review/discussion in the forum. I was told the short port on the LX100 can be zoomed to 30 or 35mm, which I never tried, so may be that could get rid of the soft corner. But can live with the soft corner.

Edited March 31, 2015 by kc_moses

[Basil 13]

Moses

Thank you!! It's like you are reading my mind. I really appreciate the comparison info of the LX100 vis-a-vis the GH4 -- you answered the questions I was thinking about. The video clip is lovely, and those nudibranch pictures are really beautiful!

I'm going to see if I can find an LX100 to hold in my hands, and play with -- to see how I like the handling. If it checks out, then I guess I have Nauticam NEX-5R/T housing and port to try to sell.

[ChrigelKarrer 52]

I was thinking about the GH4 as well,

but as i have a D800 with all lenses i did not wanted another big rig with interchangable lenses.

The LX100 fir perfectly my needs as a small, very capable camera to records videos for youtube/facebook use.

I have the LX100 clipped on the right chest d-ring and tucked under my right armpit so i have her out of the way when not using her and can feel that she is still there.

This solution gives me the liberty to guide clients with my hands free but if i encounter something special i can photograph or record it.

 

Chris

[kkfok 24]

Which AF mode will you use? Continuous AF is generally not usable for wide angle shots due to AF hunting.

[kc_moses 142]

I used Manual focus most of the time. I programmed the "AF/AE Lock" to "AF-on". So I use the AF/AE button as a "Back focus" button to set initial focus, when move in or out to adjust the focus with the peaking on. I never use the manual focus knob because I'm not use to the enlarge focus screen at the moment.

[Interceptor121 842]

When you press the movie button the camera refocuses then records. To achieve what frankie wanted you need to set af/ae lock to af-lock and then set the button to hold. The camera will then not refocus when you press the movie. Or Moses alternatives work in manual focus and then program the button to af on. The benefit of this method is that you can move the focus during the shot. I see that Panasonic micro 4:3 have very similar focus behaviour just tested the gx7 and with continuous focus on I had 1/2 episodes of focus hunting when shooting midwater (my mistake really) in general continuous focus worked very well for wide angle with the inon Uwl-h100. Even better I could use the full zoom range and ex tele very handy for close ups of moray eels and not small fish