mirrorless beginner

[raniero 0]

Hi everybody!

I started underwater photography many years ago, with the first canon compact (I believe it was 1,3 or max 2 Mpixels), then I switched to Sony, which I didn't like, went back to Canon with external Ikelite flash but my last one was stolen few years back and I decided to enjoy diving without camera distraction.

Now I would like to start again, I have a decent budget and have thought to upgrade to a mirror less. After hours on the forums and reading reviews I thought to go for Olympus OM-D E-M1. Some forum of last year were suggesting that it might be a wiser choice to stay with the EM-5 for pricing and accessories availability, but I am assuming that in the last year there have been improvements in this respect. I am reading that the Nauticam shell might be the best option, but I am quite clueless about the best fisheye lens (Panasonic 8mm?) and which macro lens I should think of (do I really need one at least before getting familiar with the camera). Also, can i manage one external flash only (as I had in the compact) or it would be a silly choice? I am not printing money, however I have 5 weeks diving in August in Bali and I was thinking to have the right gear available from the beginning, so that I could get familiar with it during this long holiday. Thanks to everybody who will want to share his experience on a mirror less set for an experienced diver but also a mediocre photographer... Raniero

[troporobo 237]

Full disclosure: I'm biased so take this for what it is worth. I am very happy with my EM-5 / Nauticam / Inon setup and feel it is a great all round system. I had only the Olympus 12-50 lens for a couple of years and was having a lot of fun with the macro capability and occasionally playing with semi-wide shots. I like the ability to switch between the two perspectives on one dive. If you have not yet found the comprehensive thread on this camera look here:

 

http://wetpixel.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=46536

 

I use two Inon S-2000 strobes. It's perfectly possible to get by with just one for macro. However anything other than macro is going to require a pair. These strobes are no good at all for wide angle. By the way, I had an Olympus housing several years ago and hated it, and have never regretted buying the Nauticam.

 

I will eventually go for the EM-1, but I would not buy one now, as Olympus is likely to update that camera soon as they just did with the EM-5 Mark II. Either the update will be worth waiting for or the original will drop in price!

[smk82 11]

I too started with a compact camera (olympus 350-z) and no strobe, and slowly worked my way up via S95 one strobe to two strobe to most recently a mirrorless (which I bought late last year). I looked at an Oly EM-5 (EM-1 was outside my budget!), but decided to plumb for the new EM-10 as I wanted a built in flash ( I was fairly certain I'd forget to clip the EM-5 flash on or lose it at some point!), and a lot of the EM-1 tech is passed onto the EM-10, with the exception of weathersealing and a 5 way stabilisation, faster sync (1/320 vs 1/250) and a couple of other bits which wouldn't make a massive difference in my situation. I've combined this with a nauticam housing/tray and twin Inon Z240 strobes as I like doing CFWA (as I already had one Z240 with my S95). Only had a chance to use it for several long dive weekends in the last few months, but I'm up to the Sound of Mull in the UK next week for 10 days , so will be looking forward to a weeks solid diving with the rig to give it a proper workout.

 

The EM-10 setup is a fair bit smaller from what I've seen than an EM-1 rig, so if your travelling a bit might be worth considering. Its definitely a big step up for me, so will be a while before I get used to it. Main aspect I like though is that no-swapping lenses underwater (i.e. wet lenses) like I had with my compact, sure its less flexible but means you can concentrate on one type of photography for the dive.

 

I only have the 9-18mm oly WA lense and the 14-42EZ at the moment (which came with the camera). Not sure yet what I'm going to do regards future lense choices. will depend on funds I think!

Edited June 9, 2015 by smk82

[chris_l 6]

I too worked up from an olympus C3000, then to a fuji F30, then an Olympus epl2. That jump to the epl2 was huge. Really improved my images tremendously. I now have an epl7 which I haven't actually used yet.

I had the oly housing for epl2 and I loved it. It's never failed me, I like the ergonomics and combined with the Zen 100WA port is extremely versatile going from the wide angle 9-18 to the very sharp 60mm macro. Just wanted to give another perspective on the olympus housings. I think they're great values. Are they as good as the aluminum ones, I can't answer that as I haven't used one, but for me, they are are very good and I love the travel profile of the system.

I now have the oly housing for the epl7. I'll report on that later, but not much difference there.

 

The current deal on the em5 with the oly housing is very good. Kind of depends on how much you want to spend and what all you need. Don't forget budget for strobes, trays, arms. You'd be much better served with a fully outfitted em5 setup than an em1 without proper lighting. With the em5, you could also afford more lens.

If you like macro at all, you have to get the 60mm. It's that good.

[raniero 0]

Thanks guys, all your comments were very valuable and, of course, they confused me even more! Troporobo advice is actually making me rethink about getting EM-1 now... smk82 suggestion for the EM-10 is actually very tempting and your advice on the 60mm is noted with thanks Chris_I, the availability of great macros in Bali is actually impressive. In the meantime I contacted a shop for a quotation and they told me I got all wrong, that the best mirror less is actually the Sony a6000 and the flash should be YS-D1, which I don't even know the brand. Thanks again, please feel free to add further advice!

[chris_l 6]

The sony is a great camera, if only it could accept the olympus 60mm macro or the panasonic 8mm FE. Make sure to look at the complete system.

The best camera without lens and ports to support it is not as good as a great camera with all the necessary lens and ports.

 

I don't know much about the YS-D1, but I use an Inon D2000. Look at what the other folks in this thread are saying they use for strobes, Inon S2000, Inon Z240.

The inons mesh very well with the olympus for getting the exposure right. I use TTL a lot. It gets it right over 90% of the time.

Edited June 9, 2015 by chris_l

[smk82 11]

I'd agree with Chris I, don't forget to budget for strobe(s), arms etc. I was lucky and able to recycle my strobe/arms from the previous camera, but if not the costs can mount up. As Chris says, it's all very well having a super camera, but if you don't have strobes/ports etc. The Oly 60mm macro is definitely the next lens I'll go for, as I'm sure I'll get a lot of use of it in the UK.

 

I find my Inon mesh quite nicely with my camera, only comment is that the instruction manuals are a complete pain to understand. The Sea&Sea YS-D1s do have a good reputation from all that I've read however. I dived with a friend who used an old YS-125 alpha which certainly looked simpler to use than my inon - but mine gave a better spread of light, so its down to personal choice. Have a look on ebay or uwpmag.com classifieds etc. Sometimes you can find good deals.

 

I can recommend here

http://www.uwdigitalcamera.com/store/home.php?cat=131

 

for buying strobes/arms if your buying new. I bought my last strobe here, and saved a small fortune (even accounting for import duties etc). Unfortunately they don't do the olympus own brand or nauticam mirrorless housings here, but strobes/arms are certainly good prices.

Edited June 10, 2015 by smk82

[raniero 0]

Guys, I owe you for your time and will confirm what I am eventually buying. If you'll plan by anytime to dive Bali sometime, please let me know. It is my second home there and I can reciprocate your help. Thanks again!

[smk82 11]

I'm actually going to spend part of my honeymoon next year in Bali. I will only be doing a few dives though.. Still looking forward to it!

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[bear35 11]

My opinion for what it is worth.....

When I moved over to 4/3 set up I opted for an Olympus EPL1 (I think) I got the Olympus housing, the kit lens, the 60mm and the 9-18. It was not long before I was regretting buying the set up wishing I had gone for something of a higher spec. I find it is important to have manual control for the settings, and now have the EM1/ Nauticam set up that is a great set up. The 60mm lens is great for macro (a real bonus in Bali) and can be easily used with one strobe (I use the sea and sea YSD1) for wide angle unless you are shooting in shallow water you will need two strobes. Ultimately it depends on how much you want to spend.... But unlike a previous comment I would not sit about waiting for a newer version of the EM1 to come out, new models are generally more expensive as well as the housings!

[chris_l 6]

bear,

I respect your opinion and I'm sure the nauticam em1 is a great setup.

But, you seem to imply that the epl1 does not have manual controls. I'm not sure if that's what you were trying to say, but just wanted to make it clear that all EPLx cameras have a manual setting and manual control of everything. Now, those cameras don't have as many dials and controls as an em1 or an em5, so you might have to go to menus or such, but it can be done. On my EPL2 in M mode, I find it quite easy to change the shutter or fstop. Just one push of a button, then the up/down controls shutter and the left right control aperture. All EPLx cameras I have tried work this way.

Also, all olympus housing give you access to all buttons on a given camera. You may prefer the ergonomics of one housing over another, but wanted to point out that all the controls are available.

 

chris

[troporobo 237]

You are of course exactly correct in this description of manual controls. There is one significant difference in practice through. With the EPLx cameras, you have to look at the LCD screen and navigate menus to change everything. With the OM-D and DSLRs, the main controls are dials under your thumb and forefinger, and you don't need to look away from the viewfinder. I find this alone to be worth the switch.

[smk82 11]

That was another reason I decided to move to the OMD range, rather than go with the PEN series or Sony RX100 for example. Whilst I could work around through menus like with my old S95, its not the easiest thing to change F-stops and shutter speed quickly especially in 5mm gloves with cold hands!. The dial operation for manual mode is far easier! I wanted something which was a bit larger and easier to live with ergonomically.

[chris_l 6]

This is the reason my recommendation is for the em5 package from olympus. Then spend all that money you saved over the em1 on lens/ports and strobes.

 

It all comes down to money and priorities. Doesn't everything?

[Griff 23]

I have a Canon DSLR in Nauticam housing and have recently moved over to mirrorless Olympus for myself and my wife as we dive most weekends and travel to Bali for diving often (only 3.5 hours from here!).

We have an Olympus OM-D E-M1 in a Nauticam housing and an E-M10 in Nauticam housing. Both are excellent especially with the vacuum valves with their green comforting glow! The advantages of E-M1 are 1/320 flash synch and better battery life, important in Bali where you are doing 3 long dives a day. That being said the mirrorless battery life or lack of compared to my Canon DSLR is one of their major flaws. The Canon battery is good for about 5 long dives where the OMD can only do about 2 to 2.5 hours constant use.

The focusing is good but again not as good as a DSLR and hunts a bit especially with the 60mm macro. I still recommend the 60mm macro and is the go to lens in Bali unless you are seeing the Molas and Mantas.

The E-M10 is slightly smaller and lighter but not much once handles are added and I prefer the trigger on the E-M1 housing.

I used 2 strobes on the Canon rig but I find 1 S&S YS-D1 strobe on the Olympus rigs is sufficient as I always shoot in manual flash with the internal flash set to 1/64 power which gives you fast recycle times and better battery life. Often the power output of the strobe is less than 1/4 when shooting macro.

One more advantage of the later OM-D E-M1 and 10 (also E-PL7) is you can operate the EZ zooms such as 14-42 and 12-50 over their full range, from a button on the camera, no zoom gear needed!

Edited June 12, 2015 by Griff

[chris_l 6]

I didn't know that about the later cameras and the 14-42 & 12-50. Very interesting. Makes those lens much more appealing to me now.

 

thanks.

[smk82 11]

I never knew that regards the 14-42 or 12-50mm..! I have the 14-42ez lens, so will look back through the manual to see how I can do this!. The 12-50mm however would still require the focus ring to switch to the macro mode wouldn't it?

[Griff 23]

Here is a link how to activate the electric zoom. You can't use the macro button but set to 50mm and add a screw on diopter like a Subser +10 or Nauticam CMC and you get better macro about 0.8 life size as opposed to the 0.5 in the macro position. http://www.bluewaterphotostore.com/blog/photo/olympus-secret-zoom-function/

[Interceptor121 707]

I would consider the Olympus OMD-EM5 and the Panasonic GX7.

I bought recently the GX7 and changed the lens to the 20mm, I discovered later that the kit lens is actually excellent and I got one on ebay

 

You can get the GX7 for $650 with the lens you then have to get a 3D print gear but the good news is that it will fit in the Nauticam Macro port 35 (that is much cheaper than the 12-50 port or similar) and later you can extend it to 65 with the mini extension ring 30 to use the Olympus 60mm macro lens.

http://interceptor121.com/2015/06/14/panasonic-gx7-with-14-42-kit-lens-with-deepshot-zoom-gear-in-macro-port-35/

 

Having look at the 12-50mm it is a pretty average lens is less sharp even of the OMD-EM10 kit lens and it has a lot of chromatic aberration that will show when you add a wet lens. For me the killer feature of the GX7 with the kit lens is that you can use wet wide lenses and zoom through, the lens is ideal for portrait work and with close up lenses holds the quality although you will need a strong lens to get you real macro.

 

Having said that if you go muck diving in Bali you really want the 60mm, if instead you are after mola mola or mantas then a 100 degree lens is what you need

[troporobo 237]

Here is a link how to activate the electric zoom. You can't use the macro button but set to 50mm and add a screw on diopter like a Subser +10 or Nauticam CMC and you get better macro about 0.8 life size as opposed to the 0.5 in the macro position. http://www.bluewaterphotostore.com/blog/photo/olympus-secret-zoom-function/

 

 

My results are different. I recently tested the Olympus 12-50 lens with a Subsee +10, comparing specifically at 43mm macro versus 50mm normal + diopter, to answer this exact question. The result was nearly no difference, and certainly nowhere near the 1.6x difference you cite. Have a look here:

 

http://wetpixel.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=48953&hl=olympus&do=findComment&comment=359057

[Griff 23]

Nauticam CMC gives you 0.8 according to website Subsee +10 less as you say but still better than lens in macro mode, cheaper than Nauticam Port 77 and zoom gear and more flexible than locking in macro mode all dive.

[troporobo 237]

Have you actually tried a Subsee +10 with this lens? If you look at my examples at the link, at minimim focus distance, that combination gives a horizontal image size of 32mm, whereas the lens alone at 43mm in macro mode gives a horizontal image of 35mm. I would call that no meaningful difference.

 

As for being "locked" in macro mode, that is only true without the Nauticam gear, which is admittedly pricey. If the argument is about expense, that is different. But the gear costs about the same as the diopter plus a flip adapter. Not having the gear also limits the lens to 12mm or 50mm but nothing in between. So (for my purposes anyway) it still doesn't make a significant difference to rely on that lens plus a diopter versus that lens plus the gear.

 

I use the 12-50 lens for dives where I dont know what I'm going to shoot and want versatility including decent closeup. I use the 60 lens with a Subsee when shooting macro exclusively.

[Griff 23]

I own a E-M1 and E-M10 both in Nauticam, 2 60mm macro lenses, the 12-50mm, a Subsee +10 and I have just bought a CMC-1. When I want macro I use the 60mm ( which is most of the time) so would not use the 12-50 in macro mode. When I use the 12-50 I have the electric zoom set so you can use full range from 12-50 without a zoom gear and I use the flip diopter with the Subsee +10 for a decent macro which is a bit better than the 43mm setting and a whole lot better than set at 50mm. The point I was trying to make is it's as versatile as Nauticam port 77 and zoom gear which cost AU$1100 but cheaper as 12-50 works perfectly in macro port 65 which is used for the macro 60mm lens.

I got the CMC-1 as the Subsee is too long and you have to move camera back loosing magnification so it only yields a approx 30% increase. The CMC gives approx 100% in magnification. It also gives more magnification than the Subsee when used with the 12-50 at 50 and at 43mm macro.

[Griff 23]

My results are different. I recently tested the Olympus 12-50 lens with a Subsee +10, comparing specifically at 43mm macro versus 50mm normal + diopter, to answer this exact question. The result was nearly no difference, and certainly nowhere near the 1.6x difference you cite. Have a look here:

 

http://wetpixel.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=48953&hl=olympus&do=findComment&comment=359057

I acknowledge the test results here but the Subsee massively improves the macro at 50mm compared to using no diopter. The 0.8 LifeSize is what Nauticam quotes with the CMC on the 12-50 at 50mm (83mm image at 50mm no diopter and 21mm with CMC)

 

http://www.nauticam.com/product.asp?id=312

 

Just did a quick test. Used 12-50 at 50mm no diopter got image 94mm across. With Subsee +10 got 31mm image and with CMC got 21mm image (all in air not water). With macro lens you get 17mm or 1:1 and CMC gives you around 9-10 mm so it looks like Nauticams figures are pretty spot on. The only draw back is the small working distance so you have to get strobes close to end of port to light subject.

Edited June 15, 2015 by Griff

[Interceptor121 707]

I think there is another consideration you need to make if you really want to use the 12-50 and this is about the sharpness and chromatic aberration. The Olympus lenses are generally pretty bad at ca and the 12-50 is no exception also resolution drops at longer focal ranges. A wet lens even the best one introduces further chromatic aberration. Also the discussion seem to focus on flat ports but actually the 12mm end is also decent for other purposes like shooting skitty fish like sharks. I do video for most so the 12-50 is not interesting for me but if I had an Olympus camera I would look at the 4" wide angle port with flip diopter at least you can shoot at wide end without reduction to the field of view. Shooting something at distances closer than 5 cm seems a bit too close to me let alone the difficulty with lights also in terms of respect for aquatic life