Manipulating underwater subjects

[Bent C 18]

Some time ago a thread was started on UWMP about the increasing number of obviously arranged macro shots getting a very high number of likes on the site (ballooning octopus, boxer crabs sitting nicely in sea shells or on leather corals, crinoid shrimp on sponges or on nudibranchs and so on). Administrators from UWMP did not take a clear stand on the issue, which in itself is remarkable. Now, however, something even weirder is happening. A number of members that posted support for a non-manipulation view on underwater photography has been removed from UWMP! No reason for this and no replies to questions about the rationale behind this selective exclusion principle has been given. I believe that most of the persons excluded can live with that. The scary thing is what this indicates about the views of UWMP admins and site owner. It is after all a big site with 35 000 members or so, arranging meetings and competitions on a regular basis, giving UWMP quite some influence on trends in underwater macro photography.

[NWDiver 42]

Agree, tired of seeing manipulated subjects. A subject that we need to keep revisiting and wish competitions would just eliminate "set" photos. Yes every now and then someone who honestly was at the right place at the right time may get lumped in but hopefully they will have photos "before" that can support the shot was one of those amazing moments.

[Drew 0]

Just a tick over 10 years when the last thread was started regarding this "touchy" subject. Everyone will have their opinions and some are more "touchy" than others, as you'll see in the thread. "Set up" shots are difficult to prove, so we have to rely on honesty, which is difficult in itself. If one goes to macro photography, some form of manipulation/handling is almost necessary for many subjects. So it's a matter of degree. Otherwise, one would be limited to the subjects which solely lie in the open. Everyone has their own limits. While no site would actively promote wanton destruction of the reef/creatures, pretty hard to draw a line in the sand.
The flying octopus brought out the discussion years ago. Even the NHM and BBC can't really see a way out (except for wolfgate!).

http://wetpixel.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=10332

[Bent C 18]

Drew, I absolutely do agree that this is not a clear line in the sand thing. There are lots of variables to take into account. However, I do find that on this continuum, there are actions that a simply to much and that those should be discussed. What these are needs a discussion and not censorship. My big problem with UWMPs action is that they censor the discussion, actively seeking out and removing people that advocate a no touching policy, and at the same time publishing many pictures that, at least to me, is way on the wrong side of the line. I find that very disturbing. And it is not that the discussion in itself is not allowed, just certain views. Advocates of "everything goes because there is always a worse example ( dynamite fishing, trawling, climate change and so on)" are not excluded. i find that seriously disturbing, and potentially damaging, given the size of UWMP.

[adamhanlon 0]

Not relevant to the UWMP community per se, but perhaps a similar issue?

 

I received this in conection with the recent Anilao shoot out:

 

Anilao underwater was a complete mess today. Photographers poking a tiny goby living in a coral, sitting on a coral while taking photos, kicking sea urchins and shrimps living on it, dive guides moving nudibranch so that two of them sit nicely together on a rock for his photographer, etc etc.

How many times did I signal "do not do that"? Well, I know they dont care.

Those photographers and guides dont care about nature, no respect towards underwater animals. The only thing they care about is their photos. Selfish selfish selfish. What value do these photos have?? Nothing, really. Really nothing.

It seems that shoot out type contests in known macro areas run a high risk of subject manipulation. It is often hard for the judges to know whether the critters have "re-arranged" to suit the photographer. Obviously, sea horse/octopus in mid-water type images are easier to spot and disqualify....

[TimG 62]

 

Not relevant to the UWMP community per se, but perhaps a similar issue?

 

I received this in conection with the recent Anilao shoot out:

 

Anilao underwater was a complete mess today. Photographers poking a tiny goby living in a coral, sitting on a coral while taking photos, kicking sea urchins and shrimps living on it, dive guides moving nudibranch so that two of them sit nicely together on a rock for his photographer, etc etc.

How many times did I signal "do not do that"? Well, I know they dont care.

Those photographers and guides dont care about nature, no respect towards underwater animals. The only thing they care about is their photos. Selfish selfish selfish. What value do these photos have?? Nothing, really. Really nothing.

It seems that shoot out type contests in know macro areas run a high risk of subject manipulation. It is often hard for the judges to know whether the critters have "re-arranged" to suit the photographer. Obviously, sea horse/octopus in mid-water type images are easier to spot and disqualify....

 

 

All pretty sad.

 

In my time in Lembeh we had a definite no-touch, no-move, no-gloves policy. A couple of times I had to have a "firm" word with guests who were moving stuff around. But God knows what happened when dive guides went off on private, guided dives one-on-one.

 

One of the many neat things though about Lembeh is that if you are patient enough and keep your eyes open you don't need to move things around. There is plenty off weird goings-on for amazing pics if you keep your eyes open: stuff sitting on stuff. It's even more satisfying when you capture an image naturally which has an amazing combination. Not that it necessarily means it'll win anything or sell (see Adam's other thread!)

Edited December 8, 2015 by TimG

[Bent C 18]

Adam, I believe that there is a definite risk that such behavior, if rewarded in competitions and if receiving vast number of likes when posted, soon will be the norm. I do firmly believe that this should be a live and ongoing discussion, and that photographers with "unlikely" pictures at least should be prepared to explain how it was achieved. Of course extremely unlikely events can happen and of course one can get a perfectly lit and composed shot of it. I fail to see why, given the sensitive nature of some of the subjects we shoot, there should be any difference in explaining the shooting circumstances or giving f-stops and such info of such shots. The bird photography community, as far as I have experienced it, are much more interested and restrictive on potential disturbance effects without stopping great bird photography.

 

I have also heard about several quite sincere problems around the competition in Anilao. It is interesting that that competition coincides with a clean-out of people on UWMP. I have no idea if there is any causal link, as I still haven't received any response to queries about why the mention of preferring non-manipulation as a rule have lead to a number of members getting "removed".

[troporobo 237]

Such behaviour is not limited to competitions, at least from what I have seen in Anilao. Tourists fly in for their once-in-a-lifetime trip, hand the guide a list of critters/shots they want, and off they go to get them whether or not naturally occurring. And they make clear that big tips await if they get them.

 

Two weeks ago, I was appalled at one well known site where (a) the guides were manipulating (i.e. handling with bare hands) the lone pygmy seahorse on a fan for at least 4 photogs for over 20 minutes, and (b) the other guides with the same group were re-arranging the coral substrate and shuttling in a variety of nudibranchs for the other 4 photogs in the group. I watched it all waiting for my turn at the pygmy but by the time I got there the pygmy was so obviously blinded and traumatized that I gave up in pity.

 

My DM and I had words with the other boat upon surfacing. These were overseas divers but local DMs and guides that we both knew. Their attitude can be summed up with two word that begin with F U. I later spoke with the dive ops manager at the resort they were staying at. Exact same attitude, but with a plea that "that's the only way we can make a living".

 

DMs in Anilao get $15 a day for 3 dives. A $20 tip is decisive. If even a small proportion of divers demand it and pay for it, that behaviour will persist. Simple as that.

Edited December 8, 2015 by troporobo

[serge 2]

I hope i won't be kicked out of wetpixel for answering here
Because this is exactely what happened to me after i joined into Bent's thread on the Underwater Macro Photographers Group (UWMP) on Facebook. As Bent i am not angry to not be a member anymore … but also seriously concerned where this policy will lead. It feels more like a North Korean regime than a internet community to me. I am really scared that there are more than 30.000 members seeing clearly manipulated images and nobody is allowed to point it out.

Edited December 10, 2015 by serge

[adamhanlon 0]

Serge-can you point out the thread for me?

 

I may reach out to the group owners and admins and ask them to comment....

 

Adam

[serge 2]

The group is not visible to me anymore. I was completely blocked from it … so unfortunately i cannot find that thread. Maybe Bent can remember the exact dates.

[Bent C 18]

Sorry, I can not remember the dates. I am also blocked, so can not search it out.

[NWDiver 42]

Years ago I felt PADI/NAUI/SSI/etc needed to put out Rules for Underwater Photographers. Teach it in their classes. Make posters dive resorts could post. Problem is photogs think they have to have that shot and are too impatient to wait, work for it. Resorts want people happy, Guides want tips, nobody wants to be the bad guy. If a resort/guide could say "if we want to keep our Padi/Naui/SSI 5 Star rating we need to adhere to these rules" it would take some of the pressure off the Guides. I talked to several resorts, some in Lembeh and there was support but the Agencies did not want to get involved, I gave up the "crusade".

 

So beyond destroying the vistas we love, harassing the creatures that make it special it devalues everyones images.

 

End of rant.

Edited December 11, 2015 by NWDiver

[Stewart L. Sy 12]

This behavior is unfortunately rampant in Anilao. One one occasion, guides from a well known to WP members move a Cerasatoma alleni nudibranch from where I was shooting it in a small overhang at Kirby's Rock to the top of a small rock so that their guests would be able to get a black background. A couple of years ago, a post was floating around about the "Banana Split Rhinopias Shot" Where a Brown, White and Pink (signifying the flavours in a traditional banana split sundae) were moved to very shallow depths in Mainit Muck so that divers could take a shot of this "once in a lifetime" opportunity, once in a lifetime was right as the fish were never seen again. My guide told me that they were found in the 25 meter plus depth and when they were taken to 8 meters, and put together... they are a territorial critter after all... =(. I do questions the photos of critters that are obvious bottom dwellers that are suddenly splayed out in the water column and conveniently has the sun behind them...

 

Anilao is not exclusive to this behaviour, I've seen it elsewhere in the Philippines and I'm sure this happens in other photo heavy dive destinations.

 

As photographers, we have to stop thinking of getting the shot and just let the shot happen.

[markdrayton 12]

Bent's thread on UWMP Group was started on 10th October Adam.

[adamhanlon 0]

Well that was an exercise in futility! Finding a post from 10 October is well nigh impossible!

 

Facebook is such a poor venue for finding information.

 

Adam

[Scuba_SI 39]

I'm blocked as well.

Interesting that they've kicked out so many people without even a message to them to explain why.

[adamhanlon 0]

I seem to be still in!

 

Simon-were you posting in the subject manipulation thread?

 

Adam

[Bent C 18]

Simon, along with all other I have heard of being kicked out, posted in that thread. Interestingly enough, despite inquiring several times about the rationale for expelling people who wish to discuss uw-photography ethics, I have received no answer at all. Counter to this, all the courses I have done and at more or less all resorts and live boards I have dived with, there has been a pretty clear to very clear no-touch policy. There seems to be quite a cognitive dissonance at place here, to say the least.

[diverdon 1]

You can color me suprised that a free swiming Octopuss is considered a manipulated Photo. While I dive more than most, I know that there are many here who dive much more than I, and I can recall at least four times that I have seen a free swiming octopuss. Only once was I able to get the picture.

[adamhanlon 0]

I think the key is the species of octopus and the pose that it is in. Very few species will swim in the water column voluntarily. They will swim along the bottom.

 

There was a 'fad" a few years ago that involved picking octopus up and dropping them, in order to obtain images of them "falling" in the water column. These were roundly condemned at the time and I guess I was hoping that we had moved beyond this type of image.

[diverdon 1]

The free swimming Octopus that I was able to get the picture of was a blue ring octopus. It was moving from one soft coral to another, with the blue rings turned on. There were no other divers nearby. On that dive there was only me and a bored DM, and the DM was 50 yards in front of me acting impatient, so really it was a solo dive. The Octopus was far enough in front of me that I'm sure I did not drive it.

 

On another occasion I saw a larger octopus of unknown species swim into a barrel sponge then swim off and hide in a hole. I saw a mimic acting like a sea snake. The preceeding were all in Puerto Galera/Sabang, Philippines. In Cayman brac on a night dive from the beach I saw a larger octpus of unknown species swimming from one place to another in what seemed to me to be a hunting pattren.

[JimSwims 31]

I think you're missing the point here Don. It's one thing to see some Octopus species moving from one point of cover to another. But for a benthic species like a Mimic or Wonderpus

to head up into water column goes entirely against the predisposition of such species. Its not that Octopus can't swim up, it just goes against there evolved form and behaviors. The

few occasions I have personally witnessed an octopus free swimming were all due to it feeling under pressure. In all instances the octopus went to ground as soon as it could. Such

instances are extremely rare to be a photo oppurtunity as they happen very quickly and the octopus nearly always are heading rapidly away, escaping.

 

What is clear, is that competitors in such shootouts are under self made pressure to get wow shots in a short space of time. For some obviously the image comes before the needs

of the subject being photographed. Shame if a website promoting underwater macro photography would actively promote an anything goes attitude. Even worse if it were to then

suppress any discussion to the contrary.

 

Cheers,

Jim.

[Bent C 18]

This should not be focused on the octopus fad, as there are many more, and probably worse examples around. There are a number of fully pelagic octopus and several mainly benthic species do now and then swim, so an occasional picture of a swimming octopus can obviously happen. Blueringed will often swim, so no problems there. The octopus problem is that the coolest pictures of swimming, or rather parachuting octopus (an octopus slowly floating down towards the substrate), are of more or less strictly bottom dwelling species such as mimics or wunderpus. Rare things can and will happen in nature, but the amount of such pictures that are perfectly lit and composed are just way to many. Several of my friends have thousands of dives in parts of the world where these octopus are quite common, and have no such pictures in their collections. Jim and Adam have more or less covered that, so I will not continue that debate.

 

Jim really points to the bigger picture here. Big Facebook sites with many members will without doubt affect beginners behaviors and expectations. If the discussion on ethics in reef diving, or even more important ethics when doing underwater photography is suppressed, or even worse, more or less forbidden, I fear that we are in for quite some trouble in the future. As an example, several times during the last couple of years discussions on not allowing cameras on Sipadan have been raised. I would hate that to happen, and to spread to other areas, but I wouldn't bet against it.

[Morton 1]

I watched it all waiting for my turn at the pygmy.