Sony a7s II underwater use -- All parameters

[GeoPaul7 20]

I am new to underwater cinematography, and have purchased a Sony a7s II and am getting familiar with it before an important trip to Raja Ampat in October. I have many questions, and wonder if there are others in the community that are shooting with this camera that I can learn from, and compare notes with.

 

1. Picture Profile? Any thoughts on the advisable "picture profile" for shooting? sLog 2, sLog 3, Cine4?

 

2. Grading and LUTS? If one shoots with a flat picture profile, how does one properly grade or color correct? I have been doing as much internet research as I can, and this remains a bit of a mystery. I want to start collecting great clips in the proper picture profile.

 

3. White balance issues? On my first trip with this camera, to Cozumel, I believe that I properly manually white balanced the camera, at a fairly deep depth, but nevertheless experienced a strong magenta cast. Is anyone else having white balance issues with this camera? Is the camera known to be poor in that area, or acceptable, or does it have known challenges that require a work around? It would be great to possess the state of the art knowledge in this area so I can improve my results.

 

I have posted my first "tests" with the camera, and the results are quite primitive, but they can be reviewed in this Vimeo clip. Anyone that wants to see some raw 4K footage of the first tests, to help me diagnose what is happening, can send me their email address and I will give them access to some raw footage.

 

Many thanks for your help.

 

 

George L. Paul

[Ammar 18]

Well, I just got my new A7R II and Sea & Sea housing for a trip to Raja Ampat in October as well

 

I've been also looking for helpful resources on the net for the best camera UW setting, whether for stills or videos, but found none so far, so basically I plan to shoot always in uncompressed Raw, with standard profile. Photoshop is an excellent software to correct the stills and Adobe Premiere or Speed Grade are excellent to color grade the movies.

 

Regarding the magenta cast, I saw another video on youtube with this issue as well. Personally, I would spend the first dive experimenting with all different WB settings until I find the most suitable one.

[GeoPaul7 20]

Thanks Damselfish:

 

I will be diving in the Sea of Cortez in 3 weeks and plan to conduct several white balance tests with the new camera.

 

I have inquired about the magenta cast. The people at Backscatter seem to think it occurred because I set the manual balance at a deeper depth, and then filmed when I was 20 or so feet higher up. This is possible.

 

However, in the raw footage, the sand looks pretty white to me, and the water and bright light looks extremely magenta.

 

I am hopeful that my tests will tell me more.

 

In Raja, are you doing a Liveaboard? We are staying at a resort named Misool.

 

Many thanks for your reply.

 

Best,

 

GLP

[Oceanshutter 121]

Hey George,

 

For the record, I haven't used the as7. So don't have first hand experience. However, I looked at it heavily, and for wide angle, the white balance is not good from a custom standpoint. Canon is king for custom white balance. From everything I have heard, it won't work below 10 feet. The camera works well for macro with artificial light, and auto wb. But wide angle it struggles. This is why you don't see too many using it for video. Someone you might try is Kay Burn Lim. He is on Vimeo and Facebook. He has just left his Sony for a RED, but he is the only one I know of that has used it seriously. His macro work is beautiful with it. Haven't seen any of his wide angle. I would try to connect with him.

 

Hope that helps.

Dustin

[GeoPaul7 20]

Dustin:

 

Wow this is incredibly helpful and I very much appreciate it. I bought my a7s II because a filmmaker friend had switched over from Nikon to it and he was very enthusiastic. He was touting the inboard 4K and low light capability. I loved the mirrorless concept, and some of the lenses are fantastic. So I made the investment to purchase it, and the housing, and that was a considerable investment for me. I I really did not know enough at the time to appreciate that using a superb camera UNDER THE OCEAN is a very specialized form of cinematography. I never checked out the white balance issues and did not even think of it because I am a rookie, but who is still trying to learn as fast as possible.

 

Accordingly, I am going to do some tests on the next dive trip, which is in the Sea of Cortez in 3 weeks. I am also going to document the tests. Iwill do my best to do everything to manually white balance correctly, and will document it. I will also experiment with different picture profiles. It is possible that some of the issues can be corrected in grading or color correction. Thus, I will be testing the sLog2 and sLog3 picture profiles as these allow better color correction later.

 

Then i will make a little film of the tests, including the location and experience. Put it on the Internet. See what more I can learn.

 

I also bought the camera for filming above water. I want to make films, that tell stories, and to feature certain ideas, as well as film underwater. Most of the work of this camera, hopefully, will be of interviews of people.

 

So thanks so much for this helpful information. I will do the tests and then let you know how they come out.

 

George Paul

[Oceanshutter 121]

No problem George. It is a fantastic camera, the low light is insane. But there are 2 things that hinder it for underwater use, white balance and battery longevity. Should be a great one for interviews. Underwater is a whole new ball game.

 

Dustin

[GeoPaul7 20]

Thanks Dustin:

 

Yes I have been studying your macro videos closely, and they are some of the best in the history of the planet. The crab with the eggs! OMG. But you know all this already as you are getting all those awards.

 

I am in touch with Kay Burn Lim and am asking him about the white balance. He has gotten back to me preliminarily and did not particularly bad mouth the camera, but I am giving him more information about the white balance issues and what a bad reputation the camera has in that area. I have heard this from several other experts as well. Trying to get more information.

 

In any event, I am a raw beginner. But I am going diving in 3 weeks in the Sea of Cortez and am designing some tests. They are kind of taking shape in my mind. You experts must do that all the time. I will make a film of my results.

 

I love Utah south and north, and have done a lot of backpacking and fly fishing in the High Uintas. Indeed really love living out West, having gone to school in the East.

 

Thanks for all your help.

 

George

[TaxiDiver14 133]

First video A7RII. AWB BIAS A3 M4. No lights. No filter.

 

https://vimeo.com/169073510

Edited August 11, 2016 by TaxiDiver14

[GeoPaul7 20]

What did you do with your film TaxiDiver14? I am enjoying watching it on Vimeo and wanted to make some comments, and ask you some questions.

[GeoPaul7 20]

Why did you do AWB rather than custom white balance? That is an interesting choice. But I am having challenging white balance issues.

 

Thanks for posting your film. Love the editing!

[TaxiDiver14 133]

What did you do with your film TaxiDiver14? I am enjoying watching it on Vimeo and wanted to make some comments, and ask you some questions.

Sorry I deleted it because I didnt know if I could anoy you by publishing my video on your post. Now is on again...

[TaxiDiver14 133]

AWB on NEX and A6xxx series is no so bad if you modify the BIAS.

This was my first video trying the A7RII.

Water conditions were bad. Green and with many particles. Next step is to use an AUTOMAGIC filter.

Did you try the underwater AWB ???

Lower than 20m allways torches and AWB and play with BIAS.

 

How are you shooting ?? S or M. I see some of you shots overexposed. I normally underexpose by -0.7 ev. And I shoot Manual with S 50, A>8, AutoISO(100-3200).

 

But im a beginer and my diving season start in september and I will be able to test more things I have in mind. I think this is going to be a great set....

 

I found this and I think it could help....

http://www.uwphotographyguide.com/sony-a7rII-best-video-settings-for-underwater

Edited August 11, 2016 by TaxiDiver14

[GeoPaul7 20]

Thanks for sending that article TaxiDiver14, and for reposting your video. People that read this thread would benefit from it.

 

I too am a beginner using this camera. I film in Manual Mode, shooting 4K, and thus have the shutter speed set to 1/60.

 

My main challenge right now is white balance. This is not so much of a challenge when using video lights, as AWB works well.

The issue is with natural light. I have been advised to use custom white balance, and to take a custom white balance every 10 feet or so. I am going diving in 3 weeks and will do a series of tests on the white balance. I will likely do some tests using a Magic filter, and some without, using custom white balance and underwater AWB. My first results had a very bad magenta cast, and I am trying to get to the bottom of it. I have been advised that the Sony cameras have poor color science, but I want to test this assertion.

 

I used manual exposure, with exposure assist, to prevent focus hunting.

 

Of course the exposure is also critical, and here is where it gets very interesting. I am experimenting with the picture profiles. I will be shooting in sLog3, with the gamut.cine color space. This means that one must take a lot more time editing. But, the theory is that shooting in sLog makes color correction more powerful, as well as giving a greater ability to correct dynamic range, contrast and levels. This might help me correct some of the white balance issues, perhaps not. Shooting in a log picture profile is a committement to really becoming an experienced "grader" or "color correction specialist," and at this time, I am committing to that.

 

Accordingly, on my next trip, here are my priorities:

 

1. Really test out the manual white balance in ambient light.

 

2. Begin using my new tripod.

 

3. Experiment with the picture profiles, and with exposure.

 

I will keep you updated on my new tests, and perhaps will make a little film and post it on the Facebook page, or at least here.

 

We will have some fun experimenting together.

[TaxiDiver14 133]

Well I think you want to do to many things at same time.

 

Forget slog for underwater use. Go with standar style. Or PP2 with color 709.

 

Use magic filter screwed to your objetive for CWB. It will give you 2000K more and M+7.

 

Allways use the VECTORSCOPE and the WAVEFORM while editing. That will let you know how is the color balance and the exposure on your footage.

 

I would beging with this.

 

Also try to shoot at early morning and at late afternoon.... you will see a big diference in your colors.

[GeoPaul7 20]

Very sage, Taxidiver14. I may indeed be focusing on too many things. I suppose I will find that out. I am going to actually write out the tests, and the protocols.

 

I have been using a magic fliter. I really do like your advice about what time of day to shoot. I will try that to the extent I have control over it.

 

Now I don't know about forgetting slog for underwater use. I am going to follow up on that and do some research, and then some tests.

 

What is your reasoning for saying "forget slog for underwater use"?

 

thanks,

 

George

[TaxiDiver14 133]

GeoPaul7 is only my option.

 

As you can read in the first article I share this guys use the standar picture style ( PP OFF ). I will use HDR with lights. I think this is a good point to start.

 

Once you have control of your main problem( WB ), you will be ready to play with PP4 or PP6 with 709 color space or cine.

 

Just I will beging from ESAY way to DIFICULT way... are my thoughts.

 

http://www.erwinvandijck.com/nieuws/optimized-video-settings-sony-a7r2

Edited August 12, 2016 by TaxiDiver14

[dreifish 364]

The best results I've gotten filming with the A7RII underwater were using the standard picture profile with underwater awb mode. There's a huge caveat though -- the white balance is not consistent in this mode. When it hits, the colors are beautiful. But sometimes it messes up or even changes mid-shot.

 

Unfortunately, I haven't been able to reproduce the same pleasing blues or color balance using mwb, with or without filters. I've actually largely been disappointed with the magic filters (tried both the green water and blue water ones for indonesian waters and now I don't without filters.

 

I just got a set of Gates gt14 lights, so I'm looking forward to seeing what the results will be with proper light. I'm starting to think I may be better off switching to a Canon camera for underwater beater work

[GeoPaul7 20]

Thanks Dreifish.

 

I have heard many negative things about the camera. I was very disappointed in the magenta cast of my first films. I had been using manual white balance. I was using a magic filter. I am wondering why I purchased the camera, and the housing, if the white balance was so unpredictable and low quality.

 

I am hoping that I may be able to meet the challenges. I am going to do some tests on my next and will try the underwater auto white balance, and perhaps discard the filter, so that I can use the lights, without a filter.

 

I will let the people on this thread now what happens on my next adventure.

 

I appreciate the time you took to answer my question.

[TaxiDiver14 133]

You have to know that you won't have nice colour at every time. I know Canon users who dont have nice colours. It depends of many things. Like sun position, water colous, visibility, etc....

Lower than 20m I do not think about it, I just get lights and AWB with A+3, M+3.

Maybe you won't get the perfect shot but you allways have the VECTORCOSPE and WAVEFOR to work with it....

Edited August 14, 2016 by TaxiDiver14

[GeoPaul7 20]

Thanks Taxidiver14. I read that link you sent. It is very helpful!

 

And yes I may just use lights.

Edited August 14, 2016 by GeoPaul7

[TaxiDiver14 133]

Thanks Dreifish.

 

I have heard many negative things about the camera. I was very disappointed in the magenta cast of my first films. I had been using manual white balance. I was using a magic filter. I am wondering why I purchased the camera, and the housing, if the white balance was so unpredictable and low quality.

 

I am hoping that I may be able to meet the challenges. I am going to do some tests on my next and will try the underwater auto white balance, and perhaps discard the filter, so that I can use the lights, without a filter.

 

I will let the people on this thread now what happens on my next adventure.

 

I appreciate the time you took to answer my question.

Did you try underwater WB with filter on ??

You have to know that you won't have nice colour at every time. I know Canon users who dont have nice colours. It depends of many things. Like sun position, water colous, visibility, etc....

Lower than 20m I do not think about it, I just get lights and AWB with A+3, M+3.

Maybe you won't get the perfect shot but you allways have the VECTORCOSPE and WAVEFOR to work with it....

[GeoPaul7 20]

UPDATE TO ALL:

 

I am back from my Sea of Cortez trip and here are the results.

 

1. Yes I was trying too many things, as Taxi Driver said. Thus, I did not experiment with picture profiles. Shot with no picture profile for video and this also facilitates the use of the camera for RAW still photography.

 

2. I was never able to achieve a custom white balance. I tried a white slate, my hand, the white sand, and at about 30 feet, where I was experimenting, it always came back "White balance error." This is as Dustin says. And this is not what the expert at Backscater said. He advised me to always take a custom white balance with this camera, and in Cozumel, I was following his advice pretty strictly, and it was yielding the poor results that are apparent in my first test film, which showed all my dirty laundry for the world to see. On this trip, in the Sea of Cortez (where the water was a different color and the temperature was 86 degrees) I was using a magic filter, and then I tried automatic underwater white balance, and things turned out exactly as Dreifish says. Sometimes the colors were awesome, and sometimes terribile, and sometimes things switched in mid stream. It did depend on the lighting conditions at the time. I will post some of the results. We were also experimenting with a GoPro using the Backscatter filters, and it is interesting indeed to see the way the white balance is handled on the GoPro as compared to the Sony.

 

3. Light gathering ability. The main thing I noticed was the awesome light gathering ability of the Sony a7s II was evident. I was able to get passable results, using available light only, even at 30 or 40 feet. The professionals who always use bright strobes, for perfect white balance and huge depth of field, would not be impressed. However, it never looks like that in reality. It is an artificial way to see things. I rather liked seeing things as they actually are, with the light filtering through the water and a bit of a shadow from the point source of the sun, rather than a completely diffused light source like a strobe illuminating a macro subject. Still, even there with the available light, I was using a magic filter and the auto underwater white balance.

 

Next trip, in 3 weeks, I will see if the camera can handle things without a magic filter, using the underwater auto white balance. This would allow me to use video lights and ambient light on the same dive. Not supposed to be able to do that, but perhaps that statement only applies to custom white balance. Maybe not to auto underwater white balance. My bet, however, is you still have to use the filter.

 

Again, thank you for everyone's responses. I am working on a film that will illustrate my experiences, as well as tell the story of your typical dive trip out of Phoenix, Arizona, with all the various and sundry characters, shady and wealthy and grown up and kids, all thrown together suddenly for a diving adventure.

 

George Paul

Edited August 31, 2016 by GeoPaul7

[TaxiDiver14 133]

Waiting results. In 2 weeks will be in Cabo de Palos trying new things....

[Ammar 18]

Thanks George for the update. In my case, I can only try the cam during my diving trip next month. As I don't want to risk it, I decided to shoot video using Picture Profile 7 (S-Log2 + S-Gamut) to grade the colors later in Adobe Premiere and Speed Grade. Not an expert in doing so, but there are good tutorials online to help me through the process. This way if the cam WB fails me, which likely it will, I will have the liberty always to correct the colors after the trip. For stills, I always shoot uncompressed RAW, so there is no problem here. Either Photoshop or Lightroom will do great job in correcting the image exposure, brightness, contrast and colors.

 

From the accumulated articles and videos I researched concerning the best cam setting in preparation for the trip, I have set my cam as follows:

 

For stills:

 

1. Manual mode, uncompressed Raw, AR 3:2. A good exposure starting point, depending on ambient light, is setting the aperture to f/8 and shutter speed to 1/125s, ISO 100-200

2. Continuous shooting drive mode, and continuous AF. Focus area is center

3. Metering mode Spot

4. WB Auto

5. Will use two Sea and Sea YS-D1 strobes, manual mode, so I chose second curtain shutter by turning off the e-Front Curtain Shutter

 

For Movies:

 

1. Assigned custom dial 1 for movies

2. File format XAVC S 4K, 24p 100M with APS-C/super 35mm turned off to get only a full frame shooting. I had to buy SanDisk 64GB Extreme Pro 280MB/s memory cards to shoot 24p 100M videos

3. Continuous shooting drive mode, and continuous AF. Focus area is center

4. Metering mode Center

5. Exposure step set to 0.3EV in order to set the shutter speed to 1/50s

6. Picture Profile set to PP7 (S-Log2 + S Gamut)

7. Movie Button = Always

8. WB Auto, though I might adjust the A-B value to A2 to force more red

9. I will use two Fisheye FIX Aquavolt 3500 LED video lights mounted with the strobes using the triple clamps

 

To conserve battery life as possible:

 

1. AF illuminator turned off

2. Pre-AF turned off

3. Assigned Deactivate Monitor to custom button 4

4. WiFi disabled by turning on Airplane Mode

5. Monitor brightness set to Manual at 0, noting that I disabled the view finder

6. Display quality set to Standard

7. Power Save Start Time = 10 Sec

 

These are only my initial preparation which will require indeed fine tuning once in the water and depending on many lighting and mood circumstances, noting that my cam is A7R II, a sister to the A7S II but with a bit different video shooting quality and light performance.

Edited September 1, 2016 by Ammar

[TaxiDiver14 133]

https://vimeo.com/169073510

 

https://vimeo.com/165307362

 

https://vimeo.com/164532144

 

This are my first 3 videos with A7RII. Shooted right from the box. Water conditions awfull except the swimming pool jejeje. Will try to improve step by step...