What are my RAW options as at August 2017?

[John Doe 0]

Hi all,

 

Well here we are in August of 2017.

 

How far have things moved along in terms of shooting RAW underwater?

 

What cameras are available that can be housed to shoot RAW?

 

The RED's

The Alexa's

The Blackmagic's

The Sony's (F7? F5? F55? F65?)

The Cannons C 300MKII

 

I think that is about it. Are there Any others that I have missed?

 

Which ones can be housed (or more correctly - which ones have a housing already out there for them?)

 

Lets daydream for a minute - if you had your choice of any of them, which would you choose?

 

Thanks

[kkfok 24]

5D Mark 3 with Magic Lantern

[John Doe 0]

Yep thats one way of doing it.

 

the F65 is damm cheap these days, but i shudder to think what it costs to house it.

 

Horses for courses here - my dive location is at the end of my yard.....literally. So a huge hulking camera/housing is no issue for me. I will never be taking whatever i get anywhere else - just out of my house, down the yard and into the boat.......and thence into the water when over the dive site.

 

So how much of the form factor makes you want to go 5D MKIII ? And is that because of flights etc and the cost of over weight luggage?

 

It seems like the options for RAW are (in order of cost)

 

GH5

5D MKIII

1DX MKII

C200

F5

F55

C700

RED - ??? Hard to know where to put this in the list - depends on the config as to cost.

F65

Alexa

 

Is that about right?

Edited August 22, 2017 by John Doe

[John Doe 0]

So another one for the list

 

Cannon C200 -

 

Price is good for 4K RAW. As time goes on 4K RAW cameras are appearing and prices are coming down.

 

To me, setting white balance wherever you want it in post has to be the killer reason why one would shoot RAW underwater.

 

 

Canon C200 Highlights & Features

• 4K DCI Cinema RAW Light to CFast 2.0
  • 4K/60p – 10 bit
  • 4K/30p – 12 bit
• Internal Compressed Codec options:
  • 4K/60p Long GOP 8bit 4:2:0 at 150 Mbps in MP4
  • 4K/24/25/30p Long GOP 8bit 4:2:0 at 100 Mbps
  • 2K/HD at 35 Mbps 8bit 4:2:0 in MP4
  • Full HD 120fps Continuous with no sensor crop
  • Records onto SD cards
  • Can do 2K/Full HD Proxies on SD card and Raw on Cfast 2.0
• Up to 15-stops dynamic range (Cinema RAW Light)
• Wide DR, Canon LOG & Canon LOG 3
• Dual Pixel CMOS AF with touch control and extensive shooting functions
• Expanded Built-in ND Filters: 2/4/6/8/10 stops (from C300 MK II)
• ACES 1.0 Support
• BT.2100 (PQ) HDR support
• HDR ST-2084 LUT (in EVF)
• Uses BP-A30 and BP-A60 batteries (same as C300 MK II)
• 8bit 4:2:2 XF-AVC 4K internal codec coming Q1 2018 as free firmware
• NO Way to Output 4K Raw (has to be recorded internally)
• HDMI Output:
  • 1920 x 1080p – 10bit 4:2:2
  • 3840 x 2160 – 8bit 4:2:2
• SDI Output:
  • 2048 x 1080 / 1920 x 1080 – 10bit 4:2:2 – Raw Light
  • 1920 x 1080 – 10bit 4:2:2
• Price: $7,499 (B&H, Adorama)

[John Doe 0]

And another one to add to the list

 

C700

 

Priced at around $34k USD ($28k for body and $6k for OLED VF) and $2k more for the global shutter version, this camera is designed to be an “A” camera and workhorse on everything from feature films, broadcast TV, sports, documentaries and surely more.

The camera is capable of recording 4K and features a 4.5K CMOS sensor with a global shutter version. The dynamic range is 15 stops for the non global shutter version, and 14 stops for the GS version. Somewhat surprisingly the camera offers an internal ProRes codec capable of recording in 4K resolution in 10-bit ProRes 422 HQ (unlike the Sony F5/F55 which with an extra $1000 board offers ProRes but is limited to recording only in High Definition resolution). Note however – the 4K ProRes codec on the C700 is only available up to 30fps but does offer higher frame rates in 2K regular and 2K cropped mode. (looks like maybe no pixel binning which Sony implemented for frame rates above 60p)

The Canon C700 will also be RAW capable using an external recorder providing up to 120fps in 12-bit 4K RAW. The F55 features 16-bit RAW using the AXS-R5 recorder and with the newer AXS-R7 recorder can record 16-bit 4K RAW in up to 120fps, and 2K RAW in up to 240fps.

Edited August 22, 2017 by John Doe

[John Doe 0]

178 views and only 1 comment. Seems there is no love for RAW around here.

 

Why is that so ? To me the idea of setting white balance in post makes up for the big file sizes and extra workload.

 

Well, anyway, I continue to look. Been speaking with Pawel Atchel about this and he says, go RED for sure so that I could use his housing with a Nikonos lens mated to the housing .... Anyone have some thoughts to this approach rather than house an expensive PL mount land lens ?

 

It really does look like the most sensible option is to go RED, as much as I didn't want to do that. I like the F65 which can be had quite cheaply these days, but to house that camera would be quite the task, not to mention handling it.

 

I guess, if this were easy, everyone would be doing it.

[r4e 18]

Perhaps limited feedback relates to the majority of Wetpixel visitors being foremost stills shooters?

 

Don't forget the older Blackmagic Cinema and Production Cameras with a Nauticam housing. Optional power pack with 3.5 hours of run time. SDI or HDMI out. However, sensor is only Super 35.

 

However, it seems that the 8-bit Sony A7xII series with FF sensor has filled the low-end market thus leaving only the GH5 as a more-than-8-bit video camera. Personally, I was very much tempted to go with Magic Lantern on a Canon 5D3. However the unofficial pioneering nature of ML together with limited recording time and high cost of recording media made me hesitate.

 

I guess there are many 5D3 videoshooters still waiting for Canon to launch a proper video camera in DSLR form factor...

[SwiftFF5 119]

While I am a video shooter primarily, I have not been able to give any feedback, because you already know far more than I do. I have been watching this thread with interest in order to learn from it. Thanks for starting it.

[kc_moses 141]

RAW Video is a luxury, that's why there is lack of comment. The interest is there, just that most of us know it's not realistic for the masses at this point (expensive media, large storage, transcode workflow etc.)

 

Also, I know some Canon 5D/6D shooters have given up for the 5D series, and they had no choice but move to 1DX Mark II. Looks like Canon gets what they want instead of listen to their advance/semi-pro consumer.

[John Doe 0]

I do get that shooting RAW is expensive in terms of recording media and HDD space to store that footage. Its also a massive increase in workflow and time.

 

But no free lunch and all that.......

 

To me it takes a lot of time and effort not to mention cost to get out there and underwater. Once there I want to do the best I can, whatever the cost. The biggest single issue is white balance.

 

I really really wanted to avoid RED if I could. I just dont like all the hype that surrounds it and while you might say, just get the camera and dont go near all that, you cant really avoid it if you want to network get ideas help and support.

 

BUt after talking with Pawel its hard to go past his housing with the Nikonos lens attached to his housing. As crazy as it sounds I have been looking at the Sony F65. They can be had for 20Kish these days which is amazing for a camera that cost around 120K when new just 5 years ago. I know this is beyond the hobbyist level and so wont get much if any discussion here. But after throwing this idea around with Pawel, all in all its better to go with the RED Dragon (now down to 12-15K on the second hand market) as that then give me access to the nikonos lens series. At the end of the day, I'd say the lens is the most important part of all this.

 

But there are a number of new cameras either recently out or coming soon. Moe and more options coming.

 

The 1DX MKII looks good, but its not RAW. The GH5 looks OK. From there it seems to be a jump up to an F5 and then onto the REDS.

 

The new housings from GATES for the REDs look good - can house a number of different cameras in the same housing - but land based lens behind a dome.

 

Ahhh....decisions decisions. An amazing time to be into cameras....so much choice and prices getting more and more realistic, especially on the used market.

[thani 72]

Hi John,

 

The Canon C200 looks good on paper. I'm not sure though if RAW is released immediately or as an update.

I hope housing manufacturers pay attention & house it.

 

I shot previously with Black Magic Production Camera 4K and I like it. I shot these clips without lighting (a must in my opinion) Here is a link:

[John Doe 0]

Hi Thani,

 

Yep - i've seen that. I have been following you for years :-)

 

I've keenly sat on the side lines watching you and the rest of the guys here going through all the machinations. It's been very interesting.

 

Luckily (or unluckily depending on how you look at it) I got sidetracked with life events that took me away from all this underwater stuff. But time to get back to it. So actively looking again.

 

At one time I was keen on the BlackMagic stuff - but its proven to be too unreliable. Just cant take the chance that the camera will flake out (all cameras can do this of course but BM seem to be especially prone to dying an early death)

 

Thing is the older Sony cameras have had a real price crash. Some amazing bargains to be had if you dig a bit. Cameras that cost $200,000 USD 6 or 7 years ago can be bought, in good working order, for 5K today. These cameras are using SRmaster codecs - some variants out to tape, some out to digital recorders. Some are B4 format (with amazing HD lenses for cheap) and others are s35 in PL format. Those s35 PL lenses are NOT cheap at all, so have to figure that into all this.

 

Then comes the housing. And that's where it stops. Unless I get a custom housing fabricated. Like YOU have done :-)

 

So now wondering if it makes sense to get a housing made that can accommodate anything from an SR 9000 or an F23 (amazing camera by the way) up to an F35 (another amazing camera - this one is truely the most cinematic video camera ever made - but I dont think we are looking for cinematic underwater) and then the granddaddy of them all - the F65.

 

Would it be possible to have a housing made that could take any of the above cameras ? They are all around a similar size (F65 is a lot "fatter" than the rest though)

 

Then there is the whole RED thing, which I am still not keen on. But those prices for an Epic MX or Scarlet MX etc are falling fast too . Even an Epic DRAGON X can be had for 13-15K with low hours on it. Which only reinforces the old adage - put your money into lenses - not bodies.

 

Its a great time to be setting up from scratch for a new camera.

Edited August 27, 2017 by John Doe

[John Doe 0]

Re the Canon C200.

 

Yes this seems to be the most sensible way forward if all factors taken into account.

 

1/ New - not a second hand purchase like an older Sony F23 or similar (F23 does not do RAW but it's still the one of the BEST video cameras ever made)

2/ RAW 12 bit 4K/30P (OK so not 12 bit 4K/60P...but still)

3/ RAW 10 bit 4K/60P - beats the GH5 here as it records this internally and is RAW

4/ Smaller camera so housing cost should be semi reasonable (is any housing cost reasonable ?)

5/ Canon colours - some will like this, some won't.

 

YES - lets hope it gets the attention of housing manufacturers - this may well be the most cost effective solution out there for 4K RAW at 12 bit.

[John Doe 0]

Forgot..... re the Canon C200,

 

Internal ND filters. Nice to have.

[John Doe 0]

The FS700 should on the list too. (fixed)

 

"The FS700 sends the following RAW signals:

• 4K RAW at 24/30/60fps, 120fps 3.6-second burst mode
• 2K RAW at 24/30/60/120/240fps"

 

I am only finding these cameras by reading and researching. If you know of one, please add it to the list.

 

It seems like the options for RAW are (in order of cost)

Black Magic range - model names?

5D MKIII

FS700

C200

F5

F55

C700

RED - ??? Hard to know where to put this in the list - depends on the config as to cost.

F65

Alexa

Edited August 27, 2017 by John Doe

[thani 72]

<p>The FS7 should on the list too. "The FS700 sends the following RAW signals:

• 4K RAW at 24/30/60fps, 120fps 3.6-second burst mode
• 2K RAW at 24/30/60/120/240fps"

You may be confusing the latest Sony FS7 with the old FS700 model. These are different cameras.The FS7 is a very good cine camera that shoots beautiful Slog curve. It is not as good as RAW but it can be close if it is at least 10 bit. With proper lighting it can be easy to work with in post edit & you don't need to white balance as it is prefixed for you. But log is another subject.The FS7 is problematic to get RAW output to a recorder hence it needs the XDCA extension back which has an odd shape and makes the camera almost impossible to house. Edited August 27, 2017 by thani

[John Doe 0]

yep - my bad- got the numbers mixed up. Been looking at so many cameras its becoming a blur. Its hard to keep up with it all. Also removed some cameras off the list since they dont shoot r a w

 

 

C200 looks good for underwater. Cost is certainly reasonable for what it offers.

[Pajjpen 62]

The interest is certsinly there but when you compare the costs of a good video camera to any "regular" camera such as the Panasonic gh4 and 5 and so on, the prices are just way over the top. If you got the money to spend on them then go ahead, I'd love a raw video cam (I'd never get a Sony camera tho cus the colours are bad imo, if I could choose I'd get a canon) but I haven't really looked into it much as I know it's gonna cost me a lot.

I think this is the case for most videographers.

[John Doe 0]

This is why I think the C200 is viable. For the price it offers a lot. Certainly better than the 1Dx MKII.

 

But yeah....the best camera in the world is no good to you if it's out of reach.

 

It all depends on what your end goal is - if it's for your own kicks then maybe it's not worth the cost of entry to the r a w world. But all things considered today's cameras are a bargain compared with even 10 years ago. It's all relative.

[thani 72]

John,

 

There is a little Chineese player on the market for few years now and have introduced the Terra 6k and down to 4K. It is called Kinefinity. The challenge is the delivery timeframe and after sale support. But here is what I think the good side:

+ Good image quality with internal RAW (their RAW format is not directly supported by Davinci but one can transcode to DNG using their Software which adds on step to the workflow. Unless one uses Scratch which directly support KRW

+ support for several mounts including KineEnhancer for EF Canon mounts (speed booster). (No continuous autofocus)

+ Size is unbelievably small. Fits in the palm of your hand. I know it doesn't matter to you but believe me after spending a week dragging my FS7 and pushing it in a wheelbarrow to the diving boat although I was staying at their resort beach. Size and weight are really factors important factor.

+ It comes with 5" monitor that draws power form the Camera directly like (Sony FS7).

+ Price point is good (6K for $6K) for a working package.

+ Not very challenging to house due to right shape & user interface.

 

Now for me that's a dream camera to house. I'm just waiting for the right moment and more mileage/depreciation on the FS7

 

http://www.kinefinity.com/?lang=en

https://www.facebook.com/groups/kinefinity/

Edited August 30, 2017 by thani

[John Doe 0]

Thani,

 

You lead, I'll follow :-)

 

I am pretty set on a Sony I think. That may change but for now its what I am thinking. Looking at an F23 2/3" sensor - no raw. The benefit is I can use a digizoom or digiprime lens on it. This is a lower cost way in at the higher end. Still not sure but reading and looking around a lot. The only problem is this means I would have to do white balance as I shoot - I wanted to go r a w to avoid this. Cant have it all I guess - unless you spend 5 figures. I am in this for the long haul. Once I commit to a platform that's it for me, so this is quite the thought process going on.

 

The housing is going to cost far more then the camera.