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MitHere

Combining 4K60 and 4K30?

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Greetings,

 

Can you combine these from different cameras in the post production process in Adobe PP and export as your standard 30fps?

I presume this is what one would want to do.. the 60fps is there to capture fast motion if needed.

 

Chur

Adam

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Yes of course.

 

Just create a 4K@30p project and put your files on the timeline. Everything should play fine by default.

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I would not get overexcited by 60p as implemented by many non pro cameras. Basically the level of compression is such that the key frames per second are the same between 30 and 60 p and therefore there is no better fluid motion.

If you have a decent camera and want to have motion freeze it is sufficient to increase the shutter speed example for 30p shoot at 1/125

 

I have done numerous tests and unless you shoot all intra frames you can't tell apart 30p and 60p shoot at 1/125

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Do it! Nobody will understand it anyway unless you slow down too much the 30FPS footage

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On 5/25/2019 at 3:01 AM, MitHere said:

Can you combine these from different cameras in the post production process in Adobe PP and export as your standard 30fps?

I presume this is what one would want to do.. the 60fps is there to capture fast motion if needed.

No problem to combine, but I would suggest you to use Davinci Resolve instead of Adobe PP, it is free and has much better UI and colometric tools to work with videos.

 

On 5/25/2019 at 11:41 AM, Interceptor121 said:

I would not get overexcited by 60p as implemented by many non pro cameras. Basically the level of compression is such that the key frames per second are the same between 30 and 60 p and therefore there is no better fluid motion.

But it does really big difference between 30 and 60 and much better fluid motion, and less shaking footage at the end.

GH5 for example has many options of bitrates to select and  60p for 4K and 2-180p FHD of course.

Edited by WillFalcon

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20 minutes ago, WillFalcon said:

No problem to combine, but I would suggest you to use Davinci Resolve instead of Adobe PP, it is free and has much better UI and colometric tools to work with videos.

 

But it does really big difference between 30 and 60 and much better fluid motion, and less shaking footage at the end.

GH5 for example has many options of bitrates to select and  60p for 4K and 2-180p FHD of course.

As I tried to explain the 50/60 fpsoptions on the GH5 for in camera recording have the same amount of key frames of the 100 bit 24/25/30 fps. So when you shoot at 50/60 fps you do not have any extra ability to detect sudden motion changes in the frame and as the codec is more compressed the image quality deteriorates. The 150 mbps double frame rate more is a bit like the settings on cheap tv for smooth motion they add redundant information that makes the clip soapy

In terms of stability it makes no difference whatsover unless you slow down the footage systematically which is an awful practice

The only situation where double frame rate is useful is when you are panning faster than normal as the extra frames will reduce the judder. Panning underwater is deprecated as you can't be in a fixed point in most cases so you are shifting while panning that increase the effect of rolling shutter and other undesired artefacts

I have done several blind tests showing in camera single and double frame rate to an audience with a clip and nobody could tell a difference so it is for most placebo effect

I wrote a post some time ago on my blog that has become very popular on GH5 groups including land not just underwater maybe you want to have a read

 

https://interceptor121.com/2018/08/13/panasonic-gh5-demystifying-movie-recording-settings/

Edited by Interceptor121

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8 minutes ago, Interceptor121 said:

I have done several blind tests showing in camera single and double frame rate to an audience with a clip and nobody could tell a difference so it is for most placebo effect

Of course it does make sense only when it will be slowed down from 60p back to 30p, I always use 60p on my GH5 for many reasons.

Also AF works much better with 179d only at 60p (actually AF on GH5 is a sh..t)

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OK if you are happy but if you shoot AVCI and reduce 50% it is way better than 60p halved

Autofocus is for most not required using wet lenses. I only use it for rectinear lenses like the 12-60 mm for the rest is a recipe for focus hunting and

Autofocus is performed before encoding so it is not affected at all by the frame rate you use but just by the settings for update

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6 hours ago, Interceptor121 said:

OK if you are happy but if you shoot AVCI and reduce 50% it is way better than 60p halved

Autofocus is for most not required using wet lenses. I only use it for rectinear lenses like the 12-60 mm for the rest is a recipe for focus hunting and

Autofocus is performed before encoding so it is not affected at all by the frame rate you use but just by the settings for update

So if you shoot All Intra 24 fps and slow it down 50% it will look better than Long GOP 60fps slowed down to fit 24fps timeline?

 

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6 hours ago, WillFalcon said:

Of course it does make sense only when it will be slowed down from 60p back to 30p, I always use 60p on my GH5 for many reasons.

Also AF works much better with 179d only at 60p (actually AF on GH5 is a sh..t)

you dont have to use the 179 trick anymore unless you havent updated your camera. This was implemented 2 versions ago I think

Edited by Lionfi2s
typo

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Just now, Lionfi2s said:

So if you shoot All Intra 24 fps and slow it down 50% it will look better than Long GOP 60fps slowed down to fit 24fps timeline?

 

Correct. The codecs are wired in for 24p so the 60p long gop has 1 I frame in a GOP of 24 the 24p will have 24 I frames. When you slow down 50 % the All intra will have 12 I frame the long gop only 1 the rest are predictions. So for the all intra you just need a simple interpolation. The long gop instead has nothing to interpolate and can only detect real motion change every half second period

As the all intra has full I frame it is better for scenes with lots of motion and you can slow it down easily 50% example is in the video I put on some days ago. Actually all intra will perform better regardless and potentially can slow down to 25% and still hold I need to test it

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2 minutes ago, Interceptor121 said:

Correct. The codecs are wired in for 24p so the 60p long gop has 1 I frame in a GOP of 24 the 24p will have 24 I frames. When you slow down 50 % the All intra will have 12 I frame the long gop only 1 the rest are predictions. So for the all intra you just need a simple interpolation. The long gop instead has nothing to interpolate and can only detect real motion change every half second period

As the all intra has full I frame it is better for scenes with lots of motion and you can slow it down easily 50% example is in the video I put on some days ago. Actually all intra will perform better regardless and potentially can slow down to 25% and still hold I need to test it

Will need to play with it.

and test also between Panasonic All intra and Prores through monitor at same fps

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Just now, Lionfi2s said:

Will need to play with it.

and test also between Panasonic All intra and Prores through monitor at same fps

According to my calculations All intra is always better than long gop however at 25% it is better to shoot VFR 96 fps. It will still record 2 I frame each 24 but there will be 8 in a second while All intra 24/4=6

So for moderate and occasional slow down All intra hold

Re ProRes I have found some technical material in essence AVCI is midway in terms of quality between ProRes 422 and HQ if you don't shoot systematically 50/60 fps there is no point using an external recorder

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5 minutes ago, Interceptor121 said:

According to my calculations All intra is always better than long gop however at 25% it is better to shoot VFR 96 fps. It will still record 2 I frame each 24 but there will be 8 in a second while All intra 24/4=6

So for moderate and occasional slow down All intra hold

Re ProRes I have found some technical material in essence AVCI is midway in terms of quality between ProRes 422 and HQ if you don't shoot systematically 50/60 fps there is no point using an external recorder

I have an old Ninja 2 that I use so I can test between them 24 fps All Intra and 24 fps prores. If I buy a new one then it will be a monitor only and not a monitor recorder and that is even before this discussion.

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Just now, Lionfi2s said:

I have an old Ninja 2 that I use so I can test between them 24 fps All Intra and 24 fps prores. If I buy a new one then it will be a monitor only and not a monitor recorder and that is even before this discussion.

At 1080p AVCI 200 mbps is better than ProRes HQ but you won't see visually much anyway as you cant tell 422 from HQ

A monitor is really useful for macro and you should keep your ninja 2 for that purpose if you have a housing 

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20 minutes ago, Interceptor121 said:

At 1080p AVCI 200 mbps is better than ProRes HQ but you won't see visually much anyway as you cant tell 422 from HQ

A monitor is really useful for macro and you should keep your ninja 2 for that purpose if you have a housing 

 

And it doesnt require a V90 card ;)

I rarely if ever do macro but still a monitor is usefull for many reasons. I do have a housing for it.

 

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Ok you can use it. V90 card is a must for 4K as it gives access to the best quality and is cost effective not requiring a housing unless you do macro. Having said that I have never had a monitor

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7 hours ago, Lionfi2s said:

you dont have to use the 179 trick anymore unless you havent updated your camera. This was implemented 2 versions ago I think

No, it does not. May be they said that in a press release, but it is a lie, I always have the latest firmware, and AF is bad, really bad. Panasonic did not fix anything.

But AF works much better with an "old 179d trick".

GH5 AF is still a sh..t, but I need it to film an action, not for macro in ideal waters. Last time I filmed the orcas at Norway: low light, low temperature, I set 4K 10bit 24p to give more light for the sensor, AF can not focus OK in such conditions, and only GoPro7 saved my life.

4K60p did all the work better with all the rest of restrictions.

Edited by WillFalcon

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13 hours ago, Interceptor121 said:

OK if you are happy but if you shoot AVCI and reduce 50% it is way better than 60p halved

Agree.

I would be happy to film using my ATOMOS ninja inferno with 10 bit 60p, but Nauticam gave me a big pig with non compatible HDMI 1.4 cable, unable to record more than 30p.

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No, it does not. May be they said that in a press release, but it is a lie, I always have the latest firmware, and AF is bad, really bad. Panasonic did not fix anything.
But AF works much better with an "old 179d trick".
GH5 AF is still a sh..t, but I need it to film an action, not for macro in ideal waters. Last time I filmed the orcas at Norway: low light, low temperature, I set 4K 10bit 24p to give more light for the sensor, AF can not focus OK in such conditions, and only GoPro7 saved my life.
4K60p did all the work better with all the rest of restrictions.

You dont need autofocus for a scene like that with the right lens. The GoPro that has a fixed focus demonstrated that to you
Especially in torbid water letting autofocus run is near suicide


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Do you use C-AF for macro?

Are you talking about video? For stills I use AFF


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Are you talking about video? For stills I use AFF
AFF and AFC are not supported in creative video mode on the GH5 and will behave like AFS however you can activate tracking and continuous AF it works for subjects that are not too small and don’t move too quick

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For Video. Didn't know AF-C isn't supported. 

Edited by hyp

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19 minutes ago, hyp said:

For Video. Didn't know AF-C isn't supported. 

According to the manual

Focus Mode settings of [AFF] and [AFC] work in the same manner as [AFS] in the following situations:

– Creative Video Mode

– When recording with [6K/4K Burst(S/S)]

– In low light situations• [AFF] is not available when recording 6K/4K photos. 

Which is normal as C-AF is pre-shot then in video mode you have Continous Focus that implements the areas settings or other settings

I suppose this is also the reason a lot of people take blurred videos hahahah

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