Cave / wreck diving strobes

[k3nnymusic 0]

Hi, 

I currently have Canon 80d with one archon video light 10 000lm and started doing some shots in overhead environment. Some of the divers ina team carry video lights as well to mąkę scenę better lighted. But now its Time for more(strobe) because:

- its difficult for communication with video lights 

- not enough of light

Can anyone advise on good one strobe convinient for such conditions? I was thinking about Z330 or Sea Sea ds-1. Would it be good choice? 

[trimix125 73]

Hi,
the same like video lights...
You need more and splitt all over the cave / wreck....
Means minimum 2 pieces on your rig,
and good buddy divers with one strobe with a good slave sensor in the hand, and maybe a second mounted on their double tank...
And yes, comunicating in which direction and so on is a different story...

Keep on it,
when it works out,
its great....

Have done some dives solo with hidden strobes in cave, can work ok too.

Regards,
Wolfgang

[k3nnymusic 0]

Hi Thank you for your reply. 

I agree but does it make sense to go into i.e. one z330 for begining or it does not make that much sense and is it good enough to go for something less powerful i.e. s 2000 or maybe two less powerfull than one strong ?

Always budget is a limitation.

I am attaching one pic with current video light - you can see that first scenery is lightened but all walls around (in very huge tunnel) does not have any lighting. Will strobe such as z330 or sea sea ds1 be able to penetrate water to lighten such a wall at least on one side ?
I know about theoretical values above the water (i.e. 30 for z330) but I would like to hear from someone with experience what kind of results could be achieved.

The places I go usualy we do 2 dives in a cave or quarry and even if I could afford 20 lights to spread across cave- usually it would be not enough of time to do proper logistics :)

 

[ChrisRoss 150]

The range of any strobe is quite limited even is crystal clear water like you may find in some caves, so the concept of lighting things up with a single strobe is probably not realistic unless it is quite a small space.  You are using an APS_C DSLR, so with wide angle lenses you probably shoot f8-f16 range which means you need a lot of light.  What lens are you using? Typical f-stop you use?    You can get away with smaller strobes if you don't stop down so much.  If the edges of the frame are in darkness you can open up your aperture some more extending the range of your flash, as having sharp corners is not so important if it is just darkness in the corners.

 

The beam angle of a typical strobe is 100-110° ,   A fisheye is 180° diagonal coverage, a 14mm rectilinear wide angle is 99° coverage which means you would need to have the lens concentric with the lens axis to get the coverage to match if you wished to illuminate to entire field of view.  this means for most circumstances having two strobes is a necessity to to provide full coverage of your frame if you are adopting the standard strobe position to reduce backscatter.

 

The alternative is get creative with your lighting, lighting up selected area or placing divers in the scene with their own light sources surrounded by darkness.

[errbrr 73]

You want lots of strobes, but you can start with one or two. I would recommend starting with one powerful one (like the Z330) and then buying more of the same as you can afford it. There are advantages to having a matched set...I have six Z240s that I use off camera in the caves. More than two strobes per diver/model plus two for the camera is usually overkill, depending on the cave you are in so that gives you an idea of how many you might end up with 

If your budget restraints are significant then perhaps a set of used Z240s might work for you? I would only recommend them if you are diving in water colder than 25 degrees, as they are more likely to be on repeated full power dumps (and thus overheat and burn out) for cave diving. The Z330 supposedly has an overheating cut out in it.

You might find some interesting effects from combining constant and strobe lighting as well. One issue will be that the strobe is much brighter than your video lights, so if you put the strobe on the camera and the video lights on your models then you may wash out the video light. The light drop off in water is why it's better to put more light on your models (as in, light source attached to them, not you). Then a little bit of light on the camera for triggering and foreground fill, and big bright strobes on the divers to light up the tunnel.

Lastly, embrace the darkness. Caves are dark. If you light the whole thing up like daylight then it just looks like a pile of rocks. Show off the mystery in your photos by working out what to light and what to leave.

[Lewis88 12]

Since you said budget is a concern, I’m selling an excellent condition INON d-2000 with only about 40 dives on it over in the classifieds. Never flooded, like new condition and I’m open to an offer on it

[trimix125 73]

Hi,
if it is a room, you will never lighten it complete....
And thats good that way.
A cave should show mystery, and not look like a workroom with light all over....
Using more strobes gives you the possibility to show the 3d scene a cave can have.
Specially with light between diver and wall, using shadows....
Thats a lot of work and needs a good team as well.
On a dive in Mexiko i met a team of 5 or 6 divers with 4 strobes on the camera, one strobe on each divers double pack, one in each divers hands, and an extra set of strobes for hiding in the background....

That makes a lot of work to get everything in position, and if the cave is not often dived, gives you a lot of silt rain from above....
Only as an idea what can happen....
And much more will happen ;-))

But enjoy it, try it and have fun.
And allways enought air on your dives!
Caves and cameras need a lot of disziplin!

Regards,
Wolfgang

[k3nnymusic 0]

On 7/25/2019 at 9:45 PM, trimix125 said:

And yes, comunicating in which direction and so on is a different story...

Do you know any good ways to not mess up communication with video lights i.e. with smaller passages where divers swim one after another? or just it needs to be a very good team (which is always a challange)

[k3nnymusic 0]

On 7/29/2019 at 4:10 AM, ChrisRoss said:

The range of any strobe is quite limited even is crystal clear water like you may find in some caves, so the concept of lighting things up with a single strobe is probably not realistic unless it is quite a small space.  You are using an APS_C DSLR, so with wide angle lenses you probably shoot f8-f16 range which means you need a lot of light.  What lens are you using? Typical f-stop you use?    You can get away with smaller strobes if you don't stop down so much. 

I use tokina 10-17 and shot usually on f10-11 (even if there are small edges as I remove them in post production if needed).

The question is if buying smaller strobes i.e. one z240 or even s2000 would give me enough of light to start practicing with such one strobe or after first few dives I will say it was a bad idea and I need an upgrade.

I can afford one z330 but it need to last for around 2 years of playing. Probably before I can afford one more, my camera will be outdated too much or I leak some equpment and story begins..:D

[k3nnymusic 0]

On 8/1/2019 at 4:08 AM, errbrr said:

You want lots of strobes, but you can start with one or two. I would recommend starting with one powerful one (like the Z330) and then buying more of the same as you can afford it. There are advantages to having a matched set...I have six Z240s that I use off camera in the caves. More than two strobes per diver/model plus two for the camera is usually overkill, depending on the cave you are in so that gives you an idea of how many you might end up with 

If your budget restraints are significant then perhaps a set of used Z240s might work for you? I would only recommend them if you are diving in water colder than 25 degrees, as they are more likely to be on repeated full power dumps (and thus overheat and burn out) for cave diving. The Z330 supposedly has an overheating cut out in it.

Thanks a lot for your comments they are very accurate and helpful!

Max I can afford now is only one z330 or one z240 with possibility to buy a second z240 in 2 years time. 

So would it be better to have one strong z330 or rather aim for two z240 as target setup? So far I have a feeling that one z330 will give me more option for creativity than having two z240 which will give me more angle but lighting wont be good enough. I am afraid very soon I will reach level with thinking (this slightly more power would give me much bigger boost for my photos.Thats mainly because I can fill corners with some video lights to avoid having completely dark edges.

What would you choose?

[k3nnymusic 0]

And also in my whole diving experience any time I bought something "almost perfect" I lasted with selling it and buying "the perfect piece" anyways in future:)

So I am rather a fan of buying slowly and single pieces of equipment but the ones which wont ask for an upgrade.

However with camera it might be slightly different - as before you complete your dream set - your camera becomes to be too old etc... so you need to sell second house you dont have:)

[errbrr 73]

I also believe in the buy it right, buy it once philosophy. In your position I'd go with the Z330 and keep an eye out for good deals in the future. Keep in mind you will need an electrical sync cord and a triggerfish or similar to go with it, so that's an extra $200 or so. You can operate without but it will rapidly become frustrating.

Keep in mind that when you upgrade your camera in future you will likely get better low light performance on a new sensor, reducing your need for really bright lights.

Regarding comms when everyone is flashing really bright video lights - I have no solution here. I find cave diving with video lights difficult. It's like being muzzled, and impossible to get anyone's attention.

Last point - you don't need to light the edges of the frame. If the cave is working against you, pick something nice and light that. It might be the silhouette of a diver in nice trim. Trying to light the walls of a big space all the way round rarely looks great. Below are images taken with two strobes on camera and one off camera, or no strobes at all. Emphasise the dark.

 

[jahjahwarrior 10]

I'm not familiar with that brand of strobes. I mostly agree with buy once cry once, but with caves you have to remember that strobes might have a hard life. Try to buy used so you don't cry when one floods. So I like 3-6 year old used, top of the line model, more than new mid grade or low grade. That way you get a lot of light but save money.

I like Ikelite ds125 because you can get them used for a good price. The latest manual triggers are ok but if you are starting from scratch I would use triggerfish instead. Those will last a long time even if the strobe breaks.

Mounting to tanks is nice but hand held gives you flexibility. I don't comunicate much with models, you just show them samples and explain the rule to keep the flash pointed away. The sample shots help a lot to give them an idea of what looks good. More than 2 strobes off camera and it's a working dive instead of a casual dive where you also take picture.

Ds125 and 160 on full, diver held it too close to himself



This model used to hold the strobe too close in every shot, I showed her some samples from another diver and now she gets it!



Strobe mounted to back of rebreather



Tank mount means you can't easily flip the strobe for back shots like this.

[kensuf 0]

I do a fair amount of cave diving and have been shooting video for documentation purposes of a few of our systems and have been known to be a model for a few photographers every now and then. One of the greatest challenges you're going to face is there's no easy way to light up a large room without LOTS of strobes.

There's a photo taken by Kirill hanging on the wall above my desk of a miniscule portion of Diepolder 3, a white walled cave with air clear water, and that shot used 7 strobes, a very wide lens (with a very close photographer), and there is still a lot of shadow.

So if you're not going to bring that kind of firepower to a shoot then you need to either get creative with your shadows (look at some of the photos that SJ Alice Bennett has been posting on FB, such as this)

Or get really close to your subject (see the above photos in this thread posted by Liz and Jah Jah).

 

 

[trimix125 73]

There are two used Inon Z240 type 4 in the classified section!
That is a great start...