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pooley

Can dx compete with fx with nauticam WACP

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Hi all, 

A bit of a twist on an old question.

I'm about to upgrade my gear, and intend this setup to be with me for several years. Getting to the age now where we can go diving without kids in tow, so should get wet more often in the upcoming years. 

Currently I have a Canon 1dx in a Nauticam housing, Sigma 15mm and Canon 100mm L 

I have Canon because for years it was better for topside wildlife stuff with higher ISO and better AF but the more recent Nikons have overtaken it, so I'm happy to switch if necessary. I want a system that is at least a little future proof (!)

Thoughts are

1) Get a D850 and add a WACP, along with the fish and macro lenses. I see this as potentially the best for IQ but also the most expensive and will take me longer to complete the topside setup.

2) Nikon D500.  Keep getting drawn to this one as I like the fisheye zoom option in a mini dome (with 1.4x when necessary) and can always add something like a 10-24 with my 8.5" dome.

3) Get a Canon 5d4 with a similar setup to option 1. I know Canon well, cheaper for me than the D850 option due to topside costs, but may feel I'm lagging behind the D50s AF which is important for me topside. 

4) Buy a Canon 1dxii which I believe fits in my current housing. I'm not into video so the loss of some controls won't bother me. 

 

IQ is crucial for me - any shortcomings should be my fault! This gets me back to the topic headline - is there much real world difference in the D500 compared to full frame? I don't intend to push the ISO that much with my destinations, and if the Nikon 8-15 with Kenko 1.4x is capable of top notch results it could make my decision a lot easier. 

I love CFWA shots, so that is something I intend to concentrate on whenever possible, and most of my U/W stuff is shooting fish, (and hopefully sharks, rays etc in the coming years) so that will be the main focus of the new purchases. 

I'm not averse to other suggestions but have to balance the cost against having useable wildlife equipment topside. Packing and travel size is something I can live with - its a pain anywhere!

 

Sorry for the ramble but I'm stuck in circles, and want to buy soon for an upcoming trip.

Mike

p.s. Does anyone know if cameras underwater have ceased trading in the UK? Their website has been down for a while

 

 

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Hey Mike

Dilemas, dilemas, eh?

I wouldn't offer a suggestion as to whether Canon is any better or worse than Nikon. Or if there is even a serious difference. I believe the road to hell lies down that path. But I can offer thoughts on the D500 against FX.

I used a D800 for about 4 years and loved it and had the same internal debate about either going for the D850 or the D500. Like you, IQ was the issue. I thought the quality of the images from the D800 were brilliant.

It was our very own Adam Hanlon that persuaded me to go for the D500. I have not regretted it for a second - but then, ha ha, I don't own a D850 to compare it with. But seriously, I can't see the difference between the D800 images and the D500. WA with the DX is easier to house; there's more DOF with macro; and, yippee, the D500 is half the price of a D850.

And I'm using the Nikkor 8-15 with the D500 with both a 100mm mini dome and an 8" FE dome. All work well. I've also now got all the right bits to go CFWA with the 8-15 and the Kenko 1.4. You must have the DGX Kenko with the 8-15 - not the older DG version.

Topside: I use a D5 (lucky me!) and the D500 for wildlife. Great combination with the DX being able to give even more value to the Nikkor 200-500 and 300. 

Hope this helps a bit.

Havn't heard anything about Cameras Underwater but, yeah, I see the website isn't working. Hmmmm. If you are looking for a dealer, I can heartily recommend Onderwaterhuis in the Netherlands. I've found them very good to deal with (English speaking, no problem at all). This link goes to the English language version of their website. Prices are, of course, in Euros which, bless Brexit, is a bit scary at the moment.

https://www.uwcamerastore.com/?SID=o097ib8gdkpb4s772f30kt7qf6&___store=default&___from_store=nl&_ga=2.11871538.768330814.1566935226-1033788858.1566935226

 

 

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Posted (edited)

Cheers for that Tim

I really don't want to get into the canon/Nikon debate, just laying out the options. 

Good to hear you liken the D500 to the D800, not a bad starting point! It wouldn't surprise me at all if I end up with the D500!

I think maybe the flexibility of the wide zoom might tip me that way, but the thought of the WACP... Agggghhhhh!!

Lets see what others think but I do need to consider buying fairly soon and make a choice.

Housing wise I'll probably stick with Nauticam - I actually preferred the feel of my old Subal housing but they seem to be in very short supply these days

Cheers

Mike

p.s. Just seen you've got a house in Poynton - lovely place, I only live in Denton.  Maybe let me know if you're going to City one day and we can meet up for a beer before the match

Edited by pooley

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9 hours ago, pooley said:

Cheers for that Tim

I really don't want to get into the canon/Nikon debate, just laying out the options. 

Good to hear you liken the D500 to the D800, not a bad starting point! It wouldn't surprise me at all if I end up with the D500!

I think maybe the flexibility of the wide zoom might tip me that way, but the thought of the WACP... Agggghhhhh!!

Lets see what others think but I do need to consider buying fairly soon and make a choice.

Housing wise I'll probably stick with Nauticam - I actually preferred the feel of my old Subal housing but they seem to be in very short supply these days

Cheers

Mike

p.s. Just seen you've got a house in Poynton - lovely place, I only live in Denton.  Maybe let me know if you're going to City one day and we can meet up for a beer before the match

Mike!

 

Another City man on WP - excellent! What wonderful times we live in :P A pre-match beer sometime would be great.

On the Subal housing, yeah, you'll have seen I have one. I've been through them from a CP5000 to D100 and onwards and think they are brilliant. But in short supply? I've not heard that. I got mine directly from Subal almost 2 years ago and am in contact with them about bits and pieces. It can be slow at times but I've had no problems.  I'm sure you can get one for a D500 - or D850. :crazy:

CTID......

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See this post:  Looks like they have gone/going under and even if you could contact them you should be very hesitant about dealing with them:
https://www.scubaboard.com/community/threads/anybody-know-what-is-going-on-with-the-uk-based-store-cameras-underwater.582580/
Cheers Chris, just as I suspected. Looks like that's one place I wont be spending any money - shame because last time I dealt with them they were great

Mike

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1 hour ago, pooley said:

Cheers Chris, just as I suspected. Looks like that's one place I wont be spending any money - shame because last time I dealt with them they were great

Mike

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Ouch, yeah me too. Is there an u/w photog dealer left now in the UK?

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3 hours ago, TimG said:

Ouch, yeah me too. Is there an u/w photog dealer left now in the UK?

Only one I know of that offers multiple brands is Ocean Leisure but I've never had any dealings with them, and they don't advertise a range anywhere near what cameras underwater did

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Not sure how much help this will be however...

I have both a D500 and a D850 (both housed in Nauticam housings). I got the D850 primarily for topside photography, but then housed it when the WACP was announced. 

For U/W, I shoot almost exclusively with the D500. It's fast, razor sharp, and very flexible - and gets great results. The one exception is when I know I'm going to have the opportunity to shoot a significant amount of w/a on a trip - then I will bring along the D850 with the WACP. I'm sure you've heard about the "heftiness" of the WACP - you need to be committed (in more ways than one) to travel with it (right now it takes up about 1/2-3/4 of  a suitcase by itself - depending on which bag I bring). 

For w/a, the D850 with the WACP gets me results that surpass anything I was able to get with the D500. However, I much rather shoot the D500 for macro and fish shots... There are a number of u/w photographers here that have gotten some amazing macro shots with the D850 - I clearly need some work in this area.

One scenario where there is measurable difference (and where the D500 clearly outshines the D850) is during a black-water dive. Having dived with both setups in Anilao on black-water dives, the D500 (with a 60mm) clearly outperformed the D850 (with a 105 or 60) for me. The focus on the D500 was faster, and it didn't get nearly as "confused" with all the stuff in the water. Much easier to shoot in this scenario with the D500 setup. 

Topside: just came back from the southern Kalahari - the D850 absolutely shined in this environment. I had the D850 set up with the 200-400mm lens and the D500 set up with a shorter lens. The D850 was excellent. 

 

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17 minutes ago, pooley said:

Only one I know of that offers multiple brands is Ocean Leisure but I've never had any dealings with them, and they don't advertise a range anywhere near what cameras underwater did

Yeah, and isn't that a franchise operation inside the store? Wasn't that Cameras Underwater?

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13 minutes ago, oneyellowtang said:

Not sure how much help this will be however...

I have both a D500 and a D850 (both housed in Nauticam housings). I got the D850 primarily for topside photography, but then housed it when the WACP was announced. 

For U/W, I shoot almost exclusively with the D500. It's fast, razor sharp, and very flexible - and gets great results. The one exception is when I know I'm going to have the opportunity to shoot a significant amount of w/a on a trip - then I will bring along the D850 with the WACP. I'm sure you've heard about the "heftiness" of the WACP - you need to be committed (in more ways than one) to travel with it (right now it takes up about 1/2-3/4 of  a suitcase by itself - depending on which bag I bring). 

For w/a, the D850 with the WACP gets me results that surpass anything I was able to get with the D500. However, I much rather shoot the D500 for macro and fish shots... There are a number of u/w photographers here that have gotten some amazing macro shots with the D850 - I clearly need some work in this area.

One scenario where there is measurable difference (and where the D500 clearly outshines the D850) is during a black-water dive. Having dived with both setups in Anilao on black-water dives, the D500 (with a 60mm) clearly outperformed the D850 (with a 105 or 60) for me. The focus on the D500 was faster, and it didn't get nearly as "confused" with all the stuff in the water. Much easier to shoot in this scenario with the D500 setup. 

Topside: just came back from the southern Kalahari - the D850 absolutely shined in this environment. I had the D850 set up with the 200-400mm lens and the D500 set up with a shorter lens. The D850 was excellent. 

 

Some really interesting observations there - thanks. 

I've been very happy with WA on the D500 in less than ideal WA condition, eg Bonaire and Puerta Galera. I've not yet had chance to try it out in, say, the Red Sea where viz is very good for WA and the D800 produced stellar images there..

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Yeah, and isn't that a franchise operation inside the store? Wasn't that Cameras Underwater?

Cameras underwater sold the london shop to OceanLeisure years ago
Right now there are at least two London shops
Ocean Leisure Cameras and Mike Dives camera both supply multi brand
Then Nauticam UK that has only Nauticam housing but supplies strobes and lights of various suppliers




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40 minutes ago, oneyellowtang said:

Not sure how much help this will be however...

I have both a D500 and a D850 (both housed in Nauticam housings). I got the D850 primarily for topside photography, but then housed it when the WACP was announced. 

For U/W, I shoot almost exclusively with the D500. It's fast, razor sharp, and very flexible - and gets great results. The one exception is when I know I'm going to have the opportunity to shoot a significant amount of w/a on a trip - then I will bring along the D850 with the WACP. I'm sure you've heard about the "heftiness" of the WACP - you need to be committed (in more ways than one) to travel with it (right now it takes up about 1/2-3/4 of  a suitcase by itself - depending on which bag I bring). 

For w/a, the D850 with the WACP gets me results that surpass anything I was able to get with the D500. However, I much rather shoot the D500 for macro and fish shots... There are a number of u/w photographers here that have gotten some amazing macro shots with the D850 - I clearly need some work in this area.

One scenario where there is measurable difference (and where the D500 clearly outshines the D850) is during a black-water dive. Having dived with both setups in Anilao on black-water dives, the D500 (with a 60mm) clearly outperformed the D850 (with a 105 or 60) for me. The focus on the D500 was faster, and it didn't get nearly as "confused" with all the stuff in the water. Much easier to shoot in this scenario with the D500 setup. 

Topside: just came back from the southern Kalahari - the D850 absolutely shined in this environment. I had the D850 set up with the 200-400mm lens and the D500 set up with a shorter lens. The D850 was excellent. 

 

Excellent write up - many thanks. 

 

One question - when you refer to the wide angle stuff you're shooting on the D850 are you talking about reef scenes or big animals? My primary interest lies with the big fish, and hopefully I'll do some trips with them in the next few years

thanks in advance

Mike

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Like the others, I am going to avoid the Nikon vs Canon discussion!

I have now used D500 and D850 quite a lot underwater. In almost all circumstances, my choice is D500.

However the joker in the pack is the WACP. This is an amazing piece of glass and really excels with big animals...which kind of makes your decision harder! 

I think it probably needs to boil down to your plans. As others have said, the WACP is a nightmare to travel with and many of the issues with WA disappear when you use DX. The 10-24 with a large dome is a very good tool too. I must confess to being caught in the same place too...I decide to carry the D500 and then think about using the WACP and change my mind!

Adam

 

 

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well you can use the wacp on the d500 and would still produce stellar results. I love the d500 (and that's after shooting the 850 a LOT) and I opted to house the d500. I have no qualms about the d500 IQ and if you pair it with great glass youre going to get great results. Use it with the 18-55 and you have pretty much the exact same versatility as the 28-70 would be on the 850. And both those lenses are incredibly cheap so im not sure the wacp should be the deciding factor between the d500 and 850  i'm not sure any of what I just said helped... :)

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Like the others, I am going to avoid the Nikon vs Canon discussion!
I have now used D500 and D850 quite a lot underwater. In almost all circumstances, my choice is D500.
However the joker in the pack is the WACP. This is an amazing piece of glass and really excels with big animals...which kind of makes your decision harder! 
I think it probably needs to boil down to your plans. As others have said, the WACP is a nightmare to travel with and many of the issues with WA disappear when you use DX. The 10-24 with a large dome is a very good tool too. I must confess to being caught in the same place too...I decide to carry the D500 and then think about using the WACP and change my mind!
Adam
 
 
For the love of God, please avoid canon v nikon !

I think realistically the d850 and wacp is going to be out of budget by the time I add on the top side stuff and possibly upgrade my computer as well.

I love my full frame gear, so having a hard time convincing myself to switch to dx but the smaller format does have several advantages underwater and I have to remember I'm doing this for fun, not profit!

Cheers

Mike

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well you can use the wacp on the d500 and would still produce stellar results. I love the d500 (and that's after shooting the 850 a LOT) and I opted to house the d500. I have no qualms about the d500 IQ and if you pair it with great glass youre going to get great results. Use it with the 18-55 and you have pretty much the exact same versatility as the 28-70 would be on the 850. And both those lenses are incredibly cheap so im not sure the wacp should be the deciding factor between the d500 and 850  i'm not sure any of what I just said helped...
Thanks Matt,

Great to hear you're happy with the d500 IQ, especially if you're used to d850 files as well.

Some good points raised, much appreciated

Mike

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Hey Mike
Dilemas, dilemas, eh?
I wouldn't offer a suggestion as to whether Canon is any better or worse than Nikon. Or if there is even a serious difference. I believe the road to hell lies down that path. But I can offer thoughts on the D500 against FX.
I used a D800 for about 4 years and loved it and had the same internal debate about either going for the D850 or the D500. Like you, IQ was the issue. I thought the quality of the images from the D800 were brilliant.
It was our very own Adam Hanlon that persuaded me to go for the D500. I have not regretted it for a second - but then, ha ha, I don't own a D850 to compare it with. But seriously, I can't see the difference between the D800 images and the D500. WA with the DX is easier to house; there's more DOF with macro; and, yippee, the D500 is half the price of a D850.
And I'm using the Nikkor 8-15 with the D500 with both a 100mm mini dome and an 8" FE dome. All work well. I've also now got all the right bits to go CFWA with the 8-15 and the Kenko 1.4. You must have the DGX Kenko with the 8-15 - not the older DG version.
Topside: I use a D5 (lucky me!) and the D500 for wildlife. Great combination with the DX being able to give even more value to the Nikkor 200-500 and 300. 
Hope this helps a bit.
Havn't heard anything about Cameras Underwater but, yeah, I see the website isn't working. Hmmmm. If you are looking for a dealer, I can heartily recommend Onderwaterhuis in the Netherlands. I've found them very good to deal with (English speaking, no problem at all). This link goes to the English language version of their website. Prices are, of course, in Euros which, bless Brexit, is a bit scary at the moment.
https://www.uwcamerastore.com/?SID=o097ib8gdkpb4s772f30kt7qf6&___store=default&___from_store=nl&_ga=2.11871538.768330814.1566935226-1033788858.1566935226
 
 

On this IQ topic, i’ve been shooting D500 with tokina 10-17mm for 3 years under 100mm dome, happy generally, but can’t comment much on IQ (upgraded from a D300s).
The Nikon 8-15mm is probably better IQ and good looking lens, but i can’t get excited about the cropped circular image.
You mentioned using a kenko 1.4, does that give you a nicer range, without cropping, bit like tokina?


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53 minutes ago, Nicool said:


On this IQ topic, i’ve been shooting D500 with tokina 10-17mm for 3 years under 100mm dome, happy generally, but can’t comment much on IQ (upgraded from a D300s).
The Nikon 8-15mm is probably better IQ and good looking lens, but i can’t get excited about the cropped circular image.
You mentioned using a kenko 1.4, does that give you a nicer range, without cropping, bit like tokina?


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I know what you mean about the circular image. I can't make my mind up about that. 

On the 8-15/Kenko 1.4, yep, it works very much like the Tokina with the Kenko. 8-15 on the DX is something like 13-24 (sort of!). Add the Kenko and its about 18-25.  There are a few WP folks using the combination very successfully - Walt Stearns for one. 

Talking around the houses, the advice was to add an extra 20mm to the extension ring when using the Kenko - which I have found works well for me. I had to buy too a new zoom ring which Subal, bless them, made for me. Walt posted a few months back that he had been able to adapt a ring to fit.

What I did find though, as I outlined above, is that the 8-15 won't work with the old Kenko, the DG model. I got Err messages when I switched the camera on although the shutter did fire a few times. The 8-15 works fine with the DGX model although on Kenko's website it is not listed as a supported combination. When I spoke to a local dealer in the Netherlands they said it wouldn't work either. Before "investing" I checked with several users all of whom confirmed that the combination worked perfectly and they were happy with it.

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I know what you mean about the circular image. I can't make my mind up about that. 
On the 8-15/Kenko 1.4, yep, it works very much like the Tokina with the Kenko. 8-15 on the DX is something like 13-24 (sort of!). Add the Kenko and its about 18-25.  There are a few WP folks using the combination very successfully - Walt Stearns for one. 
Talking around the houses, the advice was to add an extra 20mm to the extension ring when using the Kenko - which I have found works well for me. I had to buy too a new zoom ring which Subal, bless them, made for me. Walt posted a few months back that he had been able to adapt a ring to fit.
What I did find though, as I outlined above, is that the 8-15 won't work with the old Kenko, the DG model. I got Err messages when I switched the camera on although the shutter did fire a few times. The 8-15 works fine with the DGX model although on Kenko's website it is not listed as a supported combination. When I spoke to a local dealer in the Netherlands they said it wouldn't work either. Before "investing" I checked with several users all of whom confirmed that the combination worked perfectly and they were happy with it.

Thanks for that!
I know it’s not so straightforward to compare non-rectilinear lenses, so just wondering how differents are the angles of view between 8-15mm + kenko 1.4 and the 10-17 without kenko.
I really like my 10-17, unsure what sort of improvements a 8-15mm could bring besides lifting my purse


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I am reading here with interest and can answer the last question: for equisolid fisheye diagonal AOV's are 180-98 degree for Tokina 10mm - 17mm and 160-79 degree for 8-15mm with 1.4x converter (=11.2-21mm), both on DX.

Wolfgang

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I use a D800 and D850 underwater and had used a D500 for topside for a few years. Others have made some very compelling arguments on what  path to take...I will add just a few quick notes.

1- the difference in price between D850 and D500 when you look at the big picture (housing+ports+WACP+lenses) is to small, IMHO, to choose one instead of another.

2 - D850 can be used in "DX" mode with almost the same resolution as a D500, and use DX lenses setup. 

3- the main difference between D850 and D500 is resolution and about 1 stop less noise regarding ISO. Depends on how big you print or how much you crop. 

4 - If you use a DX system I suggest looking at the Sigma 17-70. By far the most versatile lens I used underwater, and if you keep it at F8 and smaller, gives you great image quality. You won´t need a WACP. 

Having said that, I think mirrorless cameras (of any brand) will be the future. If you will start a new system from zero, I would consider a mirrorless camera.

I don´t know much about Sony, but would look carefully into that if were starting something from zero today.    

Nikon is rumored to announce a new camera (60mpx) until the end of the year. 

And I would chose Z7 over D850 (even if D850 is a better camera) and start building a lens setup on Nikkor Z lenses. 

 Best regards and good luck

Marcelo 

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3 hours ago, Marcelo Krause said:

4 - If you use a DX system I suggest looking at the Sigma 17-70. By far the most versatile lens I used underwater, and if you keep it at F8 and smaller, gives you great image quality. You won´t need a WACP. 

Fully agree ... I'm using the Sigma 17-70 mm with a D7500. The versatility of the lens is awesome.

From wide angle shots, to fish portraits at 50-70 mm, to macro shots, it gives great pictures. When diving on a reef, you can change from one type of picture to the other, and it enables to cover the full richness of sights. It also enables great pictures of large fishes (mantas, sharks, ...) which often do not come close enough to take full advantage of a wide angle. 

Except when going on macro dives in places like Anilao and Lembeh, it is my lens of choice in 90% of dives.

And there is no lens as versatile (at least of Nikon) in FX format.

DX for macro is also great, as it gives more magnification, and more depth of field.

So if you focus on very specific types of pictures, then yes, a FX camera with a lens tuned to the type of pictures that you aim may give you superior results in some cases.

If you prefer versatility, DX is probably a better option ...

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I use a D800 and D850 underwater and had used a D500 for topside for a few years. Others have made some very compelling arguments on what  path to take...I will add just a few quick notes.
1- the difference in price between D850 and D500 when you look at the big picture (housing+ports+WACP+lenses) is to small, IMHO, to choose one instead of another.
2 - D850 can be used in "DX" mode with almost the same resolution as a D500, and use DX lenses setup. 
3- the main difference between D850 and D500 is resolution and about 1 stop less noise regarding ISO. Depends on how big you print or how much you crop. 
4 - If you use a DX system I suggest looking at the Sigma 17-70. By far the most versatile lens I used underwater, and if you keep it at F8 and smaller, gives you great image quality. You won´t need a WACP. 
Having said that, I think mirrorless cameras (of any brand) will be the future. If you will start a new system from zero, I would consider a mirrorless camera.
I don´t know much about Sony, but would look carefully into that if were starting something from zero today.    
Nikon is rumored to announce a new camera (60mpx) until the end of the year. 
And I would chose Z7 over D850 (even if D850 is a better camera) and start building a lens setup on Nikkor Z lenses. 
 Best regards and good luck
Marcelo 
Very informative post, thankyou.

As it happens I ended up with a d500 in nauticam which gets its first trip on Friday.

I agree mirrorless is the future and am considering a switch to sony topside next year, so who knows about the next setup!

D500 will do for now!

Cheers

Mike

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I think the one stop of ISO of full frame is balanced out by the one stop you gain at wide angle to sensor crop so from that point of view I don't think you will be disappointed
Having been on various boats with my compact first and micro four thirds after it is very clear that the benefit if full frame is to have richer colours and tones especially when the ISO goes up
On my last liveaboard there was a very capable photographer with a D500 and at wide angle his IQ was not discernible from my GH5. However I have seen practically the same shot taken with a D850 and it just looked richer than anything else
On a practical note a Dx set up is so much effective with lenses. You can get a tokina fisheye and a sigma 75mm and basically you cover 90% of shots only needing a larger dome for splits
I would not bother with the WACP even if it was compatible as it is very very bulky and you would still need a fisheye

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