HSS Retra Strobe

[Interceptor121 842]

 

I have read that the UWT TTL

Converter now supports HSS for Retra

I wonder if the camera needs to be put in TTL for HSS to work as this is the behaviour I get with HSS land flash where HSS is not available in manual

Maybe Pavel Kolpakov can clarify?

Interesting development nonetheless

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

 

 

 

 

[Pavel Kolpakov 82]

According the TTL-Converter #11075-HSS firmware, -

If user keeps camera system in TTL flash mode, then normal X-Sync speed limitation works automatically (1/250), as necessary for all underwater strobes mono-flash.

When user set Manual mode in flash menu ("WL" command), the system performs normal manual flash in all range of casual shutter speeds (up to 1/250), but in high speeds range 1/320 ... 1/8000 it works as HSS pulsating flash with variable frequency and necessary timings.

Pay attention, that HSS pulsating flash works only for Retra profile (TTL-Converter switch pos.-7), but for other uw strobes (other switch positions) at high shutter speeds the flash is simply Off automatically (but high speeds 1/320 ... 1/8000 are still available for shooting with ambient light).

 

Edited February 24, 2020 by Pavel Kolpakov

[Interceptor121 842]

So the HSS is performed by the strobe not by the converter then?

[Pavel Kolpakov 82]

4 hours ago, Interceptor121 said:

So the HSS is performed by the strobe not by the converter then?

Yes, of course, HSS pulsating flash is generated by Retra strobe.

Changing the frequency, the strobe controls light intensity in HSS mode (by the strobe knob).

HSS land strobes work the same way.

Edited February 24, 2020 by Pavel Kolpakov

[Interceptor121 842]

Yes but the land strobe needs to have the 'fire signal' so I guess it is pretty much identical 

Mine needs to be on TTL mode and this is software and there is no feature to be controlled by the strobe I guess it just fires full stop until it can

[g3cko 7]

10 hours ago, Interceptor121 said:

So the HSS is performed by the strobe not by the converter then?

The "gotcha" that I learned, the camera body and "flash" (for Nikon at least, but I think Canon too) need to communicate in order to say HSS is possible. So yes, the flash itself is what performs the HSS pulse, but whatever you plug into your camera needs to pretend to be a HSS capatable device (fake your body out) in order to perform HSS.  Saying it's _just_ the strobe is not very accurate IMO 

By perform HSS, I mean start the flash BEFORE the exposure starts.  I've tested this with simple LED triggers and without faking your camera out, the flash is firing in non-HSS mode and you'll get black bands.  

 

[Interceptor121 842]

9 hours ago, g3cko said:

The "gotcha" that I learned, the camera body and "flash" (for Nikon at least, but I think Canon too) need to communicate in order to say HSS is possible. So yes, the flash itself is what performs the HSS pulse, but whatever you plug into your camera needs to pretend to be a HSS capatable device (fake your body out) in order to perform HSS.  Saying it's _just_ the strobe is not very accurate IMO 

By perform HSS, I mean start the flash BEFORE the exposure starts.  I've tested this with simple LED triggers and without faking your camera out, the flash is firing in non-HSS mode and you'll get black bands.  

 

The flash can only start after you release the shutter in terms of intensity my understanding is that the flash emits short bursts at a fixed power until the shutter closes. The intensity is considerably lower than a normal flash. When I shoot with HSS on land although the flash wants to be in TTL I can see that the effect of flash is irrelevant what makes the exposure is the other parameters

So the solution from UWT and Retra may work but of course I need to test it as frankly I do not really trust most of what is out there in terms of validation

[Barmaglot 262]

1 hour ago, Interceptor121 said:

So the solution from UWT and Retra may work but of course I need to test it as frankly I do not really trust most of what is out there in terms of validation

If everything goes right, you'll have an opportunity to test it yourself in August - I'm coming to your liveaboard with a pair of Retra Pros and a UWT converter.

As far as operation goes, from what I understand (based on Pavel's post in Russian on another forum), the Retra strobe generates the HSS pulses, but it depends on the converter to supply a triggering signal in a very specific format. HSS power can be adjusted using the power knob on the strobe. Now, this is my own unsubstantiated guess, but I suppose that at different shutter speeds, the shutter blades move at a different rate, necessitating a different pulse duration and repetition frequency in order to avoid the shutter blades showing up in the photo - the converter gets the shutter speed setting from the camera and generates the appropriately timed pulse sequence, which is repeated by the strobe. Therefore, you can't just take any random light, flash it at the strobe's sensor and have the HSS mode expose properly.

[Interceptor121 842]

2 minutes ago, Barmaglot said:

If everything goes right, you'll have an opportunity to test it yourself in August - I'm coming to your liveaboard with a pair of Retra Pros and a UWT converter.

As far as operation goes, from what I understand (based on Pavel's post in Russian on another forum), the Retra strobe generates the HSS pulses, but it depends on the converter to supply a triggering signal in a very specific format. HSS power can be adjusted using the power knob on the strobe. Now, this is my own unsubstantiated guess, but I suppose that at different shutter speeds, the shutter blades move at a different rate, necessitating a different pulse duration and repetition frequency in order to avoid the shutter blades showing up in the photo - the converter gets the shutter speed setting from the camera and generates the appropriately timed pulse sequence, which is repeated by the strobe. Therefore, you can't just take any random light, flash it at the strobe's sensor and have the HSS mode expose properly.

My understanding is that HSS strobe pulses are much faster than shutter speed and it basically keeps going until told to stop so it will need an on and off trigger but could determine intensity on its own. If you have the right firmware you can probably test it. So far I have not found any compelling reason to get those retra this might be one if it works

[Pavel Kolpakov 82]

There are 3 main things about Retra HSS:

1) Retra Pro strobe has Manual type HSS inside. Only Manual, not TTL. The light intensity is variable by the strobe knob only. Shutter speeds for Sony" 1/320-1/8000

2) For HSS work Retra strobe needs an intellectual optoelectronic device (for example TTL-Converter), connected between camera and strobe. TTL-Converter in necessary for intellectual dialog with camera regarding HSS information in system and also for making specially timed optical signal for Retra input. Retra HSS pulsating flash does not activated by other devices of Sony protocol (Sony system strobe, manual triggers etc.), it needs specially timed input signal. That is why UWTechnics TTL-Converters were updated by new firmware for such aim.

3) In TTL mode Retra strobe works the same TTL as other uw strobes. X-Sync speed is 1/250 (for Sony A7-A9). Camera and TTL-Converter limit X-Sync speed automatically for mono-flash uw strobes.

Edited February 25, 2020 by Pavel Kolpakov

[Interceptor121 842]

1 minute ago, Pavel Kolpakov said:

There are 3 main things about Retra HSS:

1) Retra strobe has Manual type HSS inside. Only Manual, not TTL. The light intensity is variable by the strobe knob only. 

2) For HSS work Retra strobe needs an intellectual optoelectronic device (for example TTL-Converter), connected between camera and strobe. TTL-Converter in necessary for intellectual dialog with camera regarding HSS information in system and also for making specially timed optical signal for Retra input. Retra HSS pulsating flash does not activated by other devices of Sony protocol (Sony system strobe, manual triggers etc.), it needs specially timed input signal. That is why UWTechnics TTL-Converters were updated by new firmware.

3) In TTL mode Retra strobe works the same TTL as other uw strobes. X-Sync speed is 1/250 (for Sony).

That is what I thought. As we are at it Pavel can you please clarify the following:

1. Will the GH5 converter also be updated?

2. Is the GH5 converter also compatible with other MFT cameras that have 3 pins and do not supply power to the converter?

 

Thank you

 

[Pavel Kolpakov 82]

28 minutes ago, Interceptor121 said:

1. Will the GH5 converter also be updated?

2. Is the GH5 converter also compatible with other MFT cameras that have 3 pins and do not supply power to the converter?

1) Yes, GH5 converter will be updated for Retra Pro support.

2) That TTL-Converter was developed for m4/3 new style HotShoe (for camera models produced since 2016). It does not support old version cameras which have 1 pin less on the HotShoe.

[Interceptor121 842]

6 minutes ago, Pavel Kolpakov said:

1) Yes, GH5 converter will be updated for Retra Pro support.

2) That TTL-Converter was developed for m4/3 new style HotShoe (for camera models produced since 2016). It does not support old version cameras which have 1 pin less on the HotShoe.

Hi Pavel the 3 pin is implemented on new cameras that do not support a miniflash i.e. Panasonic G9 released after the GH5

Those are supported by Nauticam flash trigger 

[Pavel Kolpakov 82]

1 hour ago, Interceptor121 said:

Hi Pavel the 3 pin is implemented on new cameras that do not support a miniflash i.e. Panasonic G9 released after the GH5

Those are supported by Nauticam flash trigger 

Yes, of course, i mean m4/3 cameras supporting mini-flash on the HotShoe.  Olympus / Panasonic began to produce such HotShoe for it since 2016. Nauticam mainly produces housings exactly for such cameras in m4/3 format (EM1-II, EM-1 III, EM5-II, EM5-III, EM1-X, GH5, GH6 etc.). But G9 has old style HotShoe, yes, Nauticam has a housing for it.  For new style HotShoe m4/3 exactly was developed TTL-Converter which did not require onboard batteries. It has micro-current consumption from HotShoe +5v power pin. Sorry, it does not support old style m4/3 HotShoe.

Nauticam flash trigger is manual trigger, it uses only 2 pins (Xsync and Ground).

 

Edited February 25, 2020 by Pavel Kolpakov

[Interceptor121 842]

1 minute ago, Pavel Kolpakov said:

Yes, of course, i mean cameras supporting mini-flash on its HotShoe.  Olympus / Panasonic began to produce such HotShoe for it since 2016. Nauticam mainly produces housings exactly for such cameras in m4/3 format (EM1-II, EM-1 III, EM5-II, EM5-III, EM1-X, GH5, GH6 etc.). But G9 has old style HotShoe, yes, Nauticam has a housing for it.  For new style HotShoe m4/3 exactly was developed TTL-Converter which did not require onboard batteries. It has micro-current consumption from HotShoe +5v power pin. Sorry, it does not support old style m4/3 HotShoe.

Nauticam flash trigger is manual trigger, it uses only 2 pins (Xsync and Ground).

 

Is there a way to power it with a battery?

[Pavel Kolpakov 82]

36 minutes ago, Interceptor121 said:

Is there a way to power it with a battery?

Dialog protocol is little bit different for 3-pin configuration. It would require a new firmware for TTL-Converter, changed schematic. HotShoe plug is also different. And the board would require 2 batteries onboard. So, it would be totally a new product. 

I asked many Nauticam users a year ago, - if somebody needed a new TTL-Converter development for old style HotShoe m4/3 - ?  But there were almost no requests, just 2-3 people were interested. Because uw photographers now mainly use new style HotShoe m4/3 cameras,  almost all asked a miniature TTL board without batteries, mounted directly to transparent window. And it was done.

 

Edited February 25, 2020 by Pavel Kolpakov

[Interceptor121 842]

1 hour ago, Pavel Kolpakov said:

Dialog protocol is little bit different for 3-pin configuration. It would require a new firmware for TTL-Converter, changed schematic. HotShoe plug is also different. And the board would require 2 batteries onboard. So, it would be totally a new product. 

I asked many Nauticam users a year ago, - if somebody needed a new TTL-Converter development for old style HotShoe m4/3 - ?  But there were almost no requests, just 2-3 people were interested. Because uw photographers now mainly use new style HotShoe m4/3 cameras,  almost all asked a miniature TTL board without batteries, mounted directly to transparent window. And it was done.

 

I will ask panasonic service centre if the hot shoe can be modified but I am not hopeful

[g3cko 7]

11 hours ago, Interceptor121 said:

The flash can only start after you release the shutter

Sorry - I was referring to the shutter planes, not the button. If you look here - the light output starts before the shutter has opened at all. 

https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/38968615?image=0

[Interceptor121 842]

On 2/25/2020 at 7:42 PM, g3cko said:

Sorry - I was referring to the shutter planes, not the button. If you look here - the light output starts before the shutter has opened at all. 

https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/38968615?image=0

OK but that is not an issue. HSS is almost continuous light the strobe will emit a sequence of short bursts at maximum speed so the power is limited the shutter will close and fundamentally you can't really tune the power anyway, at least this is what I get on land.

It is quite useful in certain situation for subject isolation and I think this is what we are talking about here

[Captain Fathom 8]

Is not the HSS light pulses timed with the shutter travels? 

I cannot afford two Retra strobes now but the HSS capability is making me surely want to. I can see this HSS capability being very useful for CFWA and many other shots. The inclusion of this capability on the TTL triggers from several of the folks is very interesting to me. 

[Pavel Kolpakov 82]

I tested HSS today with Seafrogs A6xxx and A7 III housings, on speeds up to 1/8000 s.  Actually i like HSS feature 

 

Edited March 1, 2020 by Pavel Kolpakov

[Joss 15]

6 hours ago, Pavel Kolpakov said:

I tested HSS today with Seafrogs A6xxx and A7 III housings, on speeds up to 1/8000 s.  Actually i like HSS feature 

Hello Pavel, what about D500 cameras with nauticam housing?

[Interceptor121 842]

Is not the HSS light pulses timed with the shutter travels? 
I cannot afford two Retra strobes now but the HSS capability is making me surely want to. I can see this HSS capability being very useful for CFWA and many other shots. The inclusion of this capability on the TTL triggers from several of the folks is very interesting to me. 

Not for CFWA you need ambient light for that. Usually on land we use HSS to keep aperture wide and reduce ambient light. This is useful for macro and portrait work predominantly


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Pavel Kolpakov 82]

On 3/2/2020 at 7:55 AM, Joss said:

Hello Pavel, what about D500 cameras with nauticam housing?

Hi Joss,

We work with Nikon HSS now for Retra profile.

The product #11031-HSS (for Nikon) will be available soon.

 

Edited March 3, 2020 by Pavel Kolpakov

[ianmarsh 38]

Let me see if I have the concepts straight:

In a system using a Nikon DSLR in a Nauticam housing with #11031-HSS (for Nikon) installed, with Retra pro, the UW Technics board works as the interface between camera and strobe. This serves the same function as the circuit in a Nikon Speedlight that makes it Nikon, or in a Seacam strobe specified for Nikon.

1) The Retra is "Brand Agnostic" in the sense it can be used on all camera platforms as long as there is a controller available for that brand. Otherwise it is a simple manual strobe.

2) TTL is controlled via the installed board, which communicates between the camera and strobe, based on profiles written by Pavel. These would be different from the Nikon Speedlight profiles, as they are determined by the characteristics of the flash tube output, which are unique to the strobe. The profile must also take into account the method used by the camera firmware to generate and interpret the pre-flash data returning from the subject to calculate the main exposure flash. This is also unique to the camera brand.

3) HSS is pretty straightforward from the conceptual side. I would presume that other camera brands would be slightly different, depending on how the shutter curtains work, if they have this option, but the main concept holds for all brands.

4) The Smart SL feature on Retra is a way to bypass the TTL underwater if you choose to shoot manual, once the board is set up for TTL and the housing closed. It ignores the pre-flash TTL pulses and just fires the strobe. Output will be dependent on the power setting on the back of the strobe. Not sure if this thinking is correct?

5) Not sure what would happen if the Retra strobe was set at the "Manual" on position #1 and the TTL board was set in TTL mode? Would it accomplish the same thing as 4) above?

Since I don't have the UW Technics board as yet I am trying to understand how all this will work, before taking it under water.

If anyone has comments or corrections of the thinking, please weigh in:) Shout out to Pavel and Oskar for their considerable efforts and intellect in making this system a reality.

Anyway, hoping to put all this into practice in Anilao with the Reef boys in April, Covid-19 permitting.... 

 

ian